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The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Aug 4 2006, 19:28

Jolly Joker wrote:Oh, come on. If they knew what we liked, why did they get death threats for the Forge addon? And why did they make H IV the way they did?
The plain truth is that the the perpetual complaining of the so called fans ruined things then because it forced developers to do things they didn't want to. the AB addon was bad, SoD was good, actually what IS H3, but a rip-off and H 4 was a product that never reached the finish line.
In hindsight, The RoE campaigns are boring and the editor is plain and lacking; AB was buggy like hell and created LOTS of compatibilty and MP playing problems and it too SoD (which was sold at full price to do things right. The never got H IV right.


And yet,despite all of that,people are still enjoying both HIII and HIV,years later.Does that mean that 3DO had no clue what we want?I seriously doubt that.

Jolly Joker wrote:I simply don't understand some people here; I've played all Homms and for me Heroes V clearly is the best game. I have a laptop and the game runs without a glitch or lags or whatever and I have no problems whatsoever playing multi. The game has depth; it's fun. It's NOT black and white, but grey (which pissed SOME people really off).


Its grey because of...What?sabel and aaeglr?Please!

Jolly Joker wrote:In my opinion Nival does a hell of a good job with this game. BECAUSE they do what THEY want and not what the so-called fans want. If they did THAT, the game was already dead right now.


Yes,god forbid they made something similar to WoG,but better!That one would never work!

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Aug 4 2006, 20:52

Jolly Joker wrote:
jolly joker wrote:In my opinion Nival does a hell of a good job with this game. BECAUSE they do what THEY want and not what the so-called fans want. If they did THAT, the game was already dead right now.


If fans' ideas are so horrible, why is it that everything they have done for the homm series so far has excelled? There's WoG, Equilibrius, and the instruction manual, just to name some of the biggest accomplisments. There are also many fan made maps that many would say are far superior to the in-game ones. All of these have made the homm experience that much better.

I've said it before, and I'll say again; the fans seem to care a lot more about homm than the developers do, and their collective efforts to make the franchise better deserves a lot more praise than pitiful attempts the developers have made.

And watch how much better h5 becomes after fans have time to meddle with the editor. That is, if the editor doesn't become a huge dissapointment too.

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Postby Omega_Destroyer » Aug 4 2006, 21:03

The fans usually care more about a game than the developers do anyways. We don't have to worry about how much it will cost to make, deadlines, salaries, unforeseen problems, and the like. Cynically looking at it, it's prefectly logical for a game company not to really care about their product (as much as their fans) so long as they make a profit on it. Developers merely create the body; the players add the soul.

But as I've said before, I'm just happy we have another game. At least somebody was willing to make another game.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 4 2006, 21:42

mr.hackcrag wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:
jolly joker wrote:In my opinion Nival does a hell of a good job with this game. BECAUSE they do what THEY want and not what the so-called fans want. If they did THAT, the game was already dead right now.


If fans' ideas are so horrible, why is it that everything they have done for the homm series so far has excelled? There's WoG, Equilibrius, and the instruction manual, just to name some of the biggest accomplisments. There are also many fan made maps that many would say are far superior to the in-game ones. All of these have made the homm experience that much better.

I've said it before, and I'll say again; the fans seem to care a lot more about homm than the developers do, and their collective efforts to make the franchise better deserves a lot more praise than pitiful attempts the developers have made.

And watch how much better h5 becomes after fans have time to meddle with the editor. That is, if the editor doesn't become a huge dissapointment too.

Well, let's just put this into the right perspective, shall we? There were no fans in the first place, if someone, let's name him game designer, wouldn't have excelled, right? So how about letting the game designers this time do their work as well? The fans can always make a plethora of everything afterwards, no doubt, so where's the problem? Just let them do their silly, uncaring, pitiful work, and wait until Mr. Game Designer has cashed in, and then the fans can come out and do their beneficial work and turn led into gold.

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Postby GrowlingDog » Aug 4 2006, 21:52

What i dont get is how some here think H4 is a great game and H5 isnt. I remember when H4 and M&M9 came out, i rushed out and bought them. Oh my god, what a joke. M&M9 was just unplayable and H4 was a mess. the boxes they came in only had paper envelopes containing the cd's. No manuals, no cd case, laughable. If H4 didnt have a map editor it wouldnt have lasted 2 weeks. Now, Ubi is coming out with a map editor in the future, i can wait and i've finished the whole campaign. Some are whining about no map editor and they havnt even got half way thru the campaign. Not only that, what the hell difference does it make if the story is %$^* if all your waiting for is the map editor?

Daemien Lucifer wrote:
Thank god for the editor.If there wasnt one in HIV,I dont know what Id be playing now.

I have to assume that when the map editor comes out then that the story, the dialogue and the cut scenes were really not important at all. Heroes 4 without a map editor would just be a box in a bigger box underneath other big boxes gathering dust in my garage. Heroes 5 without a map editor is still providing me with a lot of entertainmant. That one could complain and moan about heroes 5 after the disgrace of heroes 4, Truly amazing.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Aug 4 2006, 22:47

Omega_Destroyer wrote:The fans usually care more about a game than the developers do anyways. We don't have to worry about how much it will cost to make, deadlines, salaries, unforeseen problems, and the like. Cynically looking at it, it's prefectly logical for a game company not to really care about their product (as much as their fans) so long as they make a profit on it. Developers merely create the body; the players add the soul.

But as I've said before, I'm just happy we have another game. At least somebody was willing to make another game.


Yeah, but you would think they would care more considering that they have invested a lot of time and resources into it. Now that they have cashed in, they seem to care even less. I've mentioned before how there are a lot of companies that make a living off putting out average to crap games. It's a shame that homm seems to have joined this kind of trend.

JJ wrote:Well, let's just put this into the right perspective, shall we? There were no fans in the first place, if someone, let's name him game designer, wouldn't have excelled, right? So how about letting the game designers this time do their work as well? The fans can always make a plethora of everything afterwards, no doubt, so where's the problem? Just let them do their silly, uncaring, pitiful work, and wait until Mr. Game Designer has cashed in, and then the fans can come out and do their beneficial work and turn led into gold.


If they design a bad game, they will start to lose fans or not create any new fans. In this case, Mr. Designer has clearly not excelled, and has failed to even finish the design itself. There was a petition to give them more time to do their work, and that was ignored. We've seen them release patches, and those do not work.

Again, my point was had they shown more concern for fan suggestions, rather than contempt, we would have a better final product. It doesn't seem right that fans have to spend their time and energy to mod everything afterward to "turn led into gold." This is the develpers job, yet fans will end up doing it for free.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Aug 4 2006, 23:03

GrowlingDog wrote:What i dont get is how some here think H4 is a great game and H5 isnt. I remember when H4 and M&M9 came out, i rushed out and bought them. Oh my god, what a joke. M&M9 was just unplayable and H4 was a mess. the boxes they came in only had paper envelopes containing the cd's. No manuals, no cd case, laughable. If H4 didnt have a map editor it wouldnt have lasted 2 weeks. Now, Ubi is coming out with a map editor in the future, i can wait and i've finished the whole campaign. Some are whining about no map editor and they havnt even got half way thru the campaign. Not only that, what the hell difference does it make if the story is %$^* if all your waiting for is the map editor?

I have to assume that when the map editor comes out then that the story, the dialogue and the cut scenes were really not important at all. Heroes 4 without a map editor would just be a box in a bigger box underneath other big boxes gathering dust in my garage. Heroes 5 without a map editor is still providing me with a lot of entertainmant. That one could complain and moan about heroes 5 after the disgrace of heroes 4, Truly amazing.


Of course I whine about the campaigns.I dont have to eat a bucket full of sh|t to tell it tastes like crap :devil: As for the HIV,I just restareted the order campaign.And guess what?It blew me away.Again.Even though I know every sentence in the game,every small event.And if HIV was so crapy like all of you state,how come people are still playing it?And if you hated HIV for comming out rushed,how come you like HV?It was also rushed.Not so much as HIV,but still very noticable.Oh,right.I almost forgot.It has breath-taking 3D graphics,a flashy box,and a manual.(btw,there was a manual for HIV,it just wasnt printed,yet it steal beats the original HV manual by far)

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Postby Omega_Destroyer » Aug 4 2006, 23:06

mr.hackcrag wrote:Yeah, but you would think they would care more considering that they have invested a lot of time and resources into it. Now that they have cashed in, they seem to care even less. I've mentioned before how there are a lot of companies that make a living off putting out average to crap games. It's a shame that homm seems to have joined this kind of trend.


Sadly, that's just how the world works.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Aug 4 2006, 23:17

Omega_Destroyer wrote:Sadly, that's just how the world works.


Which is exactly why that the public has to struggle to make the world a better place. This applies to everything, not just homm. If you want you want to make a differance in this world, you have to make your voice heard and you also have to be willing to take action.

Even if in the end, all this talk doesn't change a single thing, at least we tried to make things better. It's so much better than simply accepting the status quo.

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Postby HodgePodge » Aug 5 2006, 1:10

mr.hackcrag wrote:
… If you want you want to make a differance in this world, you have to make your voice heard and you also have to be willing to take action.

Even if in the end, all this talk doesn't change a single thing, at least we tried to make things better. It's so much better than simply accepting the status quo.

Hear Hear! :applause:
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Postby mr.hackcrag » Aug 5 2006, 1:52

I love your sig hodgepodge! Nature's the best! :)

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Postby Derek » Aug 5 2006, 5:34

I'm going to chime in and say one thing: Just because people continue to play/watch something does not mean, under any logical scrutiny, that it has any inherent merits in of itself. Please, if you're going to argue for the quality of anything do not reduce the discussion to the level of, "It must be good because X people are watching/playing it."
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Postby Caradoc » Aug 5 2006, 5:51

HodgePodge wrote:
mr.hackcrag wrote:
… If you want you want to make a differance in this world, you have to make your voice heard and you also have to be willing to take action.

Even if in the end, all this talk doesn't change a single thing, at least we tried to make things better. It's so much better than simply accepting the status quo.

Hear Hear! :applause:


And if you really want what you say to count for something, you have to find common ground with those you are speaking with. All these unsupported statements like 'Heroes IV sucked' and 'Heroes V sucks' don't contribute anything to the discussion. Sure, you have the right to ***** and moan, and if it makes you feel good, go ahead. But if you want your opinions to make a difference, then set aside the sneering and make some constructive suggestions.

As I see it, the way to judge a game is whether you can enjoy playing it. It may not be the very game you always dreamed of, but can it entertain you? If not, please realize that others may like it and that's just how people are. We don't all like the same music, movies, or books. Why should we like the same games? The gaming experience is necessarily subjective, since it includes the player as well as the game.

(Some other day, we can talk about why there are bugs. The reasons may surprise you. )
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Postby ChinaBlue » Aug 5 2006, 7:29

Caradoc wrote: (Some other day, we can talk about why there are bugs. The reasons may surprise you. )

No please, tell me now Caradoc, Why Bugs?

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Postby Meandor » Aug 5 2006, 8:48

Derek wrote:I'm going to chime in and say one thing: Just because people continue to play/watch something does not mean, under any logical scrutiny, that it has any inherent merits in of itself. Please, if you're going to argue for the quality of anything do not reduce the discussion to the level of, "It must be good because X people are watching/playing it."


SO we can safely assume that H5 sucks? Seriously i haven`t seen anything constructive why H5 is good, only "i`m having fun with it". I had fun wih DemonWorld and Empire of Magic, but god, these games sucked like i don`t know what.

DL wrote:Of course I whine about the campaigns.I dont have to eat a bucket full of sh|t to tell it tastes like crap

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Postby Jolly Joker » Aug 5 2006, 9:58

Isn't most of this completely beside the point?
For all I know the release version of the game is definitely enough to decide whether you like the game or not. From this point onwards it's fairly easy.
Either you like the game. In this case you'll wait, more or less impatiently, for the things that will allow more play: more maps, an editor, an expansion or two. Why? Because you have fun with the game and want more fun.
Or you don't like it: in that case more maps, an editor and whatnot won't help because it will be more of the stuff you don't like.
Now, I'm sure there wil be those who say, I WOULD like the game IF.
But isn't that like saying I would like George Bush IF...?
Is really someone here who wants to claim the game would be great IF that silly bug with (but something in) wasn't there?
My feeling is that most of the WHINING (not the fair criticism) is from people who don't like the game for game reasons (for example, not having enough Heroes IV in it), but would have liked to like it (wanted a new Heroes game as well) and now want to convince as many people as possible that the game sucks for some "objective" reasons, i.e. "missing" content, bugs, campaigns, whatever.

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Postby Campaigner » Aug 5 2006, 12:14

I complain since I'm not content. I feel they have done a designflaw too many and I think those are important.


Here's a list of what I think is wrong:

  • Hero standard attack
  • Too simple battlefield
  • Too low range of creature speeds
  • Too cheap spells
  • MGs ressurection (every MG should repair x HP)
  • Non-linear spelldamage of creatures
Last edited by Campaigner on Aug 5 2006, 17:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Aug 5 2006, 13:52

Caradoc wrote:
HodgePodge wrote:
mr.hackcrag wrote:
… If you want you want to make a differance in this world, you have to make your voice heard and you also have to be willing to take action.

Even if in the end, all this talk doesn't change a single thing, at least we tried to make things better. It's so much better than simply accepting the status quo.

Hear Hear! :applause:


And if you really want what you say to count for something, you have to find common ground with those you are speaking with. All these unsupported statements like 'Heroes IV sucked' and 'Heroes V sucks' don't contribute anything to the discussion. Sure, you have the right to ***** and moan, and if it makes you feel good, go ahead. But if you want your opinions to make a difference, then set aside the sneering and make some constructive suggestions.)


What unsupported statements are you talking about? You would think that the amount of times people have mentioned the serious flaws of the game by now, people would know them by heart. There was a list created during the beta of many of the things that needed to be addressed, yet very few of them apparantly were. There have been many valid and constructive comments since then about what steps needed to be taken, but most of it has fallen on deaf ears. Months later, people's patience are starting to wear out.

If you see someone write that H5 sucks, that's just a short way of referring to that long list of problems without having to type it out every single time. If we had to type out every problem in each of our posts, then this thread would be about several times longer than it is.

And we have found common ground. Everyone knows the skill system is great, the initiative system, while it needs refining for some creatures, is an interesting innovation. The only thing we haven't found common ground on is the silly arguement of whether some people should praise or bash the game. My only thought is, how can we make the game better without talking about it's downsides? What are you going to say, "H5 needs to be fixed because the skill system is so wonderful." This game needs a serious overhaul to fix all it's problems. These problems prevent it from being great and push it down into the mundane.

As I see it, the way to judge a game is whether you can enjoy playing it. It may not be the very game you always dreamed of, but can it entertain you? If not, please realize that others may like it and that's just how people are. We don't all like the same music, movies, or books. Why should we like the same games? The gaming experience is necessarily subjective, since it includes the player as well as the game.


Game experience is subjective, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to come to a consensus whether a game is good or not. Game magazines give ratings to games based on technical aspects as well as fun factor. Same can be said about movies, books, etc. H5 clearly ranks poorly in technical aspects, regardless if one can have a good time playing it. This makes the overall game of much lower quality. I think we should demand a higher calibur homm game. Sorry if those demands are so crazy, like actually finishing the making of the game, or fixing all the bugs. You would think that the developers, if nothing more than out of shame, would have done these things by now.

(Some other day, we can talk about why there are bugs. The reasons may surprise you. )


I agree with ChinaBlue, I want to be surprised now. 8|

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Postby Ethric » Aug 5 2006, 14:23

Jolly Joker wrote:My feeling is that most of the WHINING (not the fair criticism) is from people who don't like the game for game reasons (for example, not having enough Heroes IV in it), but would have liked to like it (wanted a new Heroes game as well) and now want to convince as many people as possible that the game sucks for some "objective" reasons, i.e. "missing" content, bugs, campaigns, whatever.


That's certainly what I do: if I had liked the game and it's concepts overall I would have defended the flaws (was that way with H4).

But what about it? There are no objectivity here, if we wanted an objective opinion we'd need someone who didn't care, I suppose, and people who don't care don't usually come to give their opinions. Or rather, they probably don't have an opinion. And what you may feel deserves the labels of "Whining" and "fair criticism" certainly aren't judged objectively: your judgements are steered by your support of the game. As mine are steered by my contempt for it. Though of course, some complaints that go only "H5 sucks" I think all would agree are fairly unconstructive. And likewise, those that merely say "I love H5, it's great" or similar are also being unconstructive and should not be listened to.

And Caradoc, no-body likes someone who says A but not B. Full story or nothing; surprise us with your knowledge of entomology :)
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Postby GrowlingDog » Aug 5 2006, 17:28

Ok heres the bit i dont get. If i play a game but quickly get sick of it and think it sucks, i MITE leave 1 comment in that games forum saying so. What i just cant fathom is why anyone would spend every day putting posts in the games forum telling all that will listen that they think the game sucks and why. It no longer becomes criticism but whining/complaining and no one takes that seriously, especially not game makers like Ubi. If you dont like playing the game, thats cool, dont play it. But also, go write on forums of the games that you do like. Stop trying to convince those that are really enjoying playing the game that they are somehow wrong or have bad taste. We all no most of the faults of the game and dont need reminding by ardent non-Heroes 5 players that we're not supposed to be enjoying this game. If you dont like the party, LEAVE, dont stand around drinking free beer and whining that there arnt enough hot girls or that the music sucks. It aint cool, its annoying. Now, can i get anyone a drink before the stripper arrives. :-D


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