So many Unupgraded Units are so Worthless

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
MrSteamTank
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So many Unupgraded Units are so Worthless

Unread postby MrSteamTank » 26 Jul 2006, 04:16

when compared to the upgraded versions. I thought nival wanted to make non-upgraded units have some use. Why else would archers have rain of arrows or peasants have taxpayer if not to want players to use the unupgraded versions on occasion?

It seems every unit upgrade in heroes 5 is simply an improvement in every way with a very few noteable exceptions. I mean compare skeleton warriors with skeleton archers or blood sisters with blood furies. Seriously are they even close to as good as each other?

Honestly I'd love to see actual differences in the upgrades other than adding an ability and bonus stats. For example units that get heavily armored(squires, paladins, royal gryphons, and inquisitors) could all lose some speed/initiative when upgraded. Naturally the non-upgraded versions would be weaker but have a purpose if you need that extra speed to get to the front lines. Ancient treants could follow the same kind of line since they would be older and slower than regular treants.

Other units could change differently such as succubi mistress' losing direct dmg over their regular succubi counterparts but gaining far more bounce dmg. This way if you want to focus fire you get succubi but if you want more spread out dmg you can upgrade to the succubi mistress. Iron golems could have no magic resist while steel get 75% so the upgrade would be mostly for players that want a spell immune warrior. It's not even very hard to make changes like this. Just add 5-10 hp here, remove 2-3 defense there, add/remove 1 point of initiative/speed, and the game would get much more exciting. :D

Still I was kind of disappointed seeing how they initially tried to make the non-upgraded units useful with haven and then just gave up, said screw it, and took the easy way out. :(
Last edited by MrSteamTank on 26 Jul 2006, 04:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postby LordErtz » 26 Jul 2006, 04:21

Elder druids gain mana and other stats but lose out on init or speed (can't remember which) and also lose HP.

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Unread postby MrSteamTank » 26 Jul 2006, 04:31

LordErtz wrote:Elder druids gain mana and other stats but lose out on init or speed (can't remember which) and also lose HP.
I know their are a few exceptions but they are very far and between. Anyways elder druids lose 1 hp and 1 speed but gain 2 defense, 5 attack, 2-5 dmg, more shots, and more mana. Not really pronounced enough to make a difference. Although I must admit if druids are being used solely for lightning bolt then its sometimes worth it to just get druids.

The other two exceptions I found is Rakshasa Ranis and Rakshasa Rajas and archers and marksmen with the upgrades having a 1 initiative reduction. Skeleton warriors and skeleton archers are another with skeleton warriors having 1 more speed although I hardly think that makes up for the decreased hp, lack of ranged ability, and 33% dmg decrease. I'm not sure if their are any more units were the upgrade isn't as effective as the unupgraded.

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Unread postby imnotdanny » 26 Jul 2006, 04:31

do feel the same, that they started trying to gave use to unupgraded units to haven but gave up at footman, right now for most units i don't see any reason to use the unupgraded except the extra cost,


as for the druid, it's really kinda minor, would u really use regular druids over eldar just cuz they have 1 more movement? (especailly since u don't usually move them anyways...)

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Unread postby asandir » 26 Jul 2006, 04:35

i think that's valid to a point, but it is an UPGRADE, you can hardly make them worse than they are .... it is a difficult thing to do, because you will almost always want the upgraded creature if you can get it, better abilities, stats etc ....

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 26 Jul 2006, 09:39

Right. Since upgrading the buildings costs money, why would you upgrade, if upgrading would only change the unit, but not making them better overall. Actually I think that for a change indeed all units ARE useful. For example, even the basic Gremlins shoot. Even the basic pixies have a no-retal spray effect attack. There are certainly some exceptions to the rule, but I suppose that has something to do with the overall game. For example Hell Hounds and Blood Maidens. Here you'll go for the upgrade, because the upgrade will be a lot more helpful in progressing than building something else at that point of the game.

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Unread postby asandir » 26 Jul 2006, 10:35

i agree jolly joker .... the units are all useful, yet you will always upgrade unless money/resources are a problem

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 26 Jul 2006, 11:03

Those things are called upgrades,so that means they are better then their basic counterparts.Really,the only dilema in choosing an upgrade should be financial.But when choosing upgrade or basic for free,there should be no dilema.If you want choice,play HIV,or hope that HVI will have that option.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 26 Jul 2006, 12:08

And this is why I hate upgrades. Mostly they're only a way to use up more resources.
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Unread postby Meandor » 26 Jul 2006, 13:06

While i aggre that upgrades are upgrades and for those resources we should get something better, but it would be nice to have more diversity. For example fighter with heavy armor is generaly better than fighter with leather armor, but in some situations fighter with leather armor is better(fighting in forest or swamp, runing towards badass mage). In other words make upgraded versions of units stronger than unupgraded, but in few situations unupgraded should be better
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 26 Jul 2006, 13:07

ThunderTitan wrote:And this is why I hate upgrades. Mostly they're only a way to use up more resources.
I don't understand, what else would you use the resources for? The only thing they are for is making the buildings. Obviously I'm exaggerating a little but that is their primary purpose.

The choice thing in Heroes IV was ok. I wasn't crazy about it but I would have liked it fine if there was one more tier. But then again in all these games you want just a few more monsters...human nature.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 26 Jul 2006, 13:13

PhoenixReborn wrote: I don't understand, what else would you use the resources for?
Ale and whores of course. :devil:

Less spend on buildings = more spend on creatures. ;)
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Unread postby Caradoc » 26 Jul 2006, 15:05

Meandor wrote:While i aggre that upgrades are upgrades and for those resources we should get something better, but it would be nice to have more diversity. For example fighter with heavy armor is generaly better than fighter with leather armor, but in some situations fighter with leather armor is better(fighting in forest or swamp, runing towards badass mage). In other words make upgraded versions of units stronger than unupgraded, but in few situations unupgraded should be better
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Unread postby imnotdanny » 26 Jul 2006, 16:35

well if upgraded is truly better than y doesn't conscript generate money or marksman have scatter, since it's a much more useful ability than precision shot.

seems to me that nival tried to give some use to unupgraded but give up quickly

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Unread postby Marine OKeefe » 26 Jul 2006, 16:53

I personally prefer Archers over Marksman, but there is no way anyone would want Cavaliers over Paladins or Footmen over Squires. I wish they had their own perks.
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 26 Jul 2006, 17:47

imnotdanny wrote:well if upgraded is truly better than y doesn't conscript generate money or marksman have scatter, since it's a much more useful ability than precision shot.

seems to me that nival tried to give some use to unupgraded but give up quickly
Whats so good about scatter shot?I used it just once,and it was out of pure boredom.Why would I want to take a few of slow demons and imps that already drained my mana along with those pit fiends,when I can take out more fiends?Besides,precise shoot is sooooo good!Just get those devils close enough and watch them fall like flies.

Peasant is probably the only creature that is better unupgraded.

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Unread postby LordErtz » 26 Jul 2006, 17:57

Scattershot RULES. Though I mostly upgrade my archers for the HP boost.

If you can shoot more than 2 creatures with scattershot you are doing 1.5x the damage you would do to just 1...so if you add up the dmg its a bonus :)

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Unread postby Marine OKeefe » 26 Jul 2006, 18:00

Scattershot is awesome, you can hit up to 9 enemies and since it only does half damage to each thats a ton of extra damage.
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 26 Jul 2006, 18:53

But consider what extra units youll hit.Ill always choose to kill 4 pit fiends over two pit fiends and bunch of demons and imps with them.Youll rarelly have the opportunity to do more usefull extra damage.

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Unread postby thecheese » 26 Jul 2006, 19:53

Not to mention the stats on the Marksman allow him to generally just kick more ass than the archer. Maybe if archers had Marksman-like stats/damage, scattershot would be comparable to precision shot.


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