druids, magi (waters, pits)

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csarmi
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druids, magi (waters, pits)

Unread postby csarmi » 12 Jul 2006, 07:22

I guess the question should be obvious.

You spot lots of druids/elders/magi/archmagi.

Under what circumstances would you attack them confidently? What kind of heroes? What kind of armies? How to fight?

How to fight water elementals/pit fiends/pit lords? What's the difference?

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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 12 Jul 2006, 07:37

If I have tactics and at least two large enough fast stacks(for example 100 or so cerberi,or a couple of dragons),Id attack,but still Id fight carefully.Also,phantom forces may give me enough confidence.If I play necro,then I almost always attack.Royal griffins are also nice for this,but only if I have no war machines,or they are easy to buy after the battle.Teleport assault or masters of ice and lightning are also good to have against these,as well as big group of fast shooters(like hunters).

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Unread postby Metal Wolf » 12 Jul 2006, 08:59

While I was playing with my friend (hotseat) he (playing with academy) had a fight against druids... despite the fact that he had 4 giants, 7 rakashasas, about 15 magi, 30 golems etc. he had some really serious casualties... (the most painfull loss was 3 giants!)...
But then we came up with an idea - we reloaded (yeah :) ) and fought them again, but this time leaving out of the fight (in the tactics phase, before the battle itself) everyone except the golems and the gargoyles... the druides were wasted! they killed only about 7 goems and 12 gargoyles - which is really nothing... (that was, of course, due to the lightning immunity of the gargoyles and the magic-proof nature of the golems)

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Grumpy Old Wizard
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 12 Jul 2006, 11:27

Yes, golems and gargoyles are great to use against casters. Both creature stacks and harrassing enemy heroes that have no chance to beat your army but who can cause casualties to your shooters and flee.

GOW

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wimfrits
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Unread postby wimfrits » 12 Jul 2006, 12:21

For myself :
- with sufficient magic resistant/immune units (except vs magi ofcourse: magi are insane). VS ranged-casters this will still result in significant casualties.

- with tactics + enough high speed/high initiative units.
This is the most valid tactics imo.

- single fodder units work well against melee-casters by spell point depletion. I’ll probably need a trailing second hero to deposit the rest of my army. If enemy stacks are split up too much I need disabling/reviving/strong DD spells

- Sylvan only : large number of sprites.
If I have an obvious numeric advantage: the AI will tend to attack my main group of sprites. Losing some is not that important since their spell damage hardly drops.

- reviving/disabling spells or a resurrecting tent can be scale-tipping factors ofcourse. Teleport, teleport assault, phantom image as well.

- pit lords/fiends are relatively easy. Much more time to take them out. Hero will always move first, so spells become a much larger factor.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

csarmi
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Unread postby csarmi » 12 Jul 2006, 13:28

Th problem with fast troops and tactics is that it is extremely dangerous. You have to guess how they will split, else you have serious problems. You also have to estimate your damage well --- if some stay alive, you're in trouble.

I found that creatures split to 1-4 groups and that it is still subject to relative army strength (the stronger you are, the less stacks you will face).

I have a few successes so far, but I'm still scared of stacks like this to hell.

Water elementals are not ranged, so if you have mass slow and some creatures to sacrifice, you can take them out just by having enough stacks of fast troops. You deplete their mana and then you run away and hero kills them. Expect a very hard fight still (I used these tactics on inferno 3rd map to kill 88 water elementals by several hell hounds, 80 gremlins and a few succubi with Agrael).

Pit fiends/lords deplete their mana fast and after that they are too slow to cause you real troubles. 7 sprites should be enough, for example. I killed pack of pit fiends on haven map 5 by 4 peasants and 3 imperial griffins. (and in the prison fight about 7 pit lords by 20 imperial griffins + fodders just by diving them)

I wanted to kill lots of elder druids with some DD spells and 12 deep hydras on dungeon map 1. I would bring along a big army so they only split to two stacks. The hydras should regenerate themselves back. In the end I didn't try it cause I got week of the fever and half my army was gone.

Druids and magi seem to be very hard for me since they are ranged too. I simply can't see any way to fight them properly unless I have some uber-level 7 troops or LOTS of troops, tactics and enough confidence that I can take them out before they get to move.

At least magi have low hp and druids can be countered by resistant creatures or magic resistance spell... but these are very special cases I think.

I think these creatures are completely out of balance and will make random maps unplayable in multiplayer, plus week of the xxx has to be taken out as well.

*Sigh*

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Unread postby juventas » 12 Jul 2006, 14:28

I hate it when archer/caster units are split. If it is one unit, I can nail it with master level wasp swarm or master of ice/lightning to prevent it from acting before my walkers get to them.

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Unread postby Campaigner » 12 Jul 2006, 21:00

Another weakness in Nivals "less spelldamage the bigger the stack" idea....
Don't like to HOPE for the ArchMagi/Elder Druids to group in one or two stacks. Makes the game rely too much on luck.

Heh, I sense a good exploit here. Possessing Elder Druids/ArchMages with the ghost to cause your opponent a world of hurt! Just imagine the pro players look on his face when he attacks the ArchMages guarding the passageway between your castles beleiving that they'll split into two stacks when they suddenly become stacks of 1-1-1-1-1-1-20 ^^ I would be like "Oooh ****...." if that happened to me.

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Unread postby Caradoc » 15 Jul 2006, 16:43

Two tips:

First, do not deploy weak, valuable armies. Save those Sprites for another fight. This allows you to make some one creature stacks. Send some of those out to draw the first round of fire, while waiting with your main force. The AI will prefer targets that are in range. (Note that it also likes to target low level creatures with ranged abilities.) Since the casters usually have bad initiative, after thier first strike, you should be able to close and get in the next blow. Creatures with no-retaliate are best to use.

Second, avoid the fight until you have enough of an edge to have the opponent surrender. Who knows, they may even join!
Before you criticize someone, first walk a mile in their shoes. If they get mad, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have their shoes.

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Unread postby Orfinn » 15 Jul 2006, 19:58

Campaigner wrote: Heh, I sense a good exploit here. Possessing Elder Druids/ArchMages with the ghost to cause your opponent a world of hurt! Just imagine the pro players look on his face when he attacks the ArchMages guarding the passageway between your castles beleiving that they'll split into two stacks when they suddenly become stacks of 1-1-1-1-1-1-20 ^^ I would be like "Oooh ****...." if that happened to me.
Hehe yeah that would be hilarious! ^^


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