List the Underpowered tier 7 Units!!!

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
MrSteamTank
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 217
Joined: 12 Jun 2006

List the Underpowered tier 7 Units!!!

Unread postby MrSteamTank » 11 Jul 2006, 23:28

List the tier 7 units you find underpowered and how you would go about balancing them. I won't list mine yet but I'd like to know what people find are the weakest tier 7 unit and how they would fix them.

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23270
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 11 Jul 2006, 23:44

Devil/ArchDevils are rather weak, prob because summoning Pit Lords was considered too good. I'd rather have them tele anywhere, and their summon to be nerfed somehow.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!
I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €

Image

User avatar
Omega_Destroyer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 6939
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Location: Corner of your Eye

Unread postby Omega_Destroyer » 11 Jul 2006, 23:47

Skeletal/Spectral dragons by far.

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 12 Jul 2006, 00:51

Devils need to cross the whole field.

Spectral dragons could have incorporeal,but it should be made 50% physical damage reduction instead of what it is now.

Also giants are pretty weak.

User avatar
vicheron
Marksman
Marksman
Posts: 403
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Unread postby vicheron » 12 Jul 2006, 02:39

Skeletal/Spectral Dragons are just way too weak. The Spectral Dragon's Weakness isn't even expert level.

User avatar
TinBane
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 28
Joined: 20 May 2006

Unread postby TinBane » 12 Jul 2006, 04:26

Omega_Destroyer wrote:Skeletal/Spectral dragons by far.
Quote for truth. Weakest level 7 in existance.

User avatar
asandir
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 15481
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: The campfire .... mostly

Unread postby asandir » 12 Jul 2006, 09:29

spectral dragon is the weakest when compared 1 on 1 with the other level 7s .... but you can consider tier vs tier units across the board and find massive differences (assassin anyone??) - the real comparison has to factor in cost and weekly growth since this brings some of the stronger units back into line, and some of the weaker units up in strength (spectral dragons for example)

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 12 Jul 2006, 10:32

Even though they grow more then other level 7s,and are cheaper,they are still very week.Mostly because skeleton archers are overpowered.

User avatar
asandir
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 15481
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: The campfire .... mostly

Unread postby asandir » 12 Jul 2006, 10:43

i actually did a bit of a weeks worth of growth comparison between the black dragon and the spectral dragon and there is very little in it when 3 SD's take on 2 BD's

they are still not the strongest, but they are definately competitive

User avatar
Meandor
Blood Fury
Blood Fury
Posts: 478
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: Lithuania

Unread postby Meandor » 12 Jul 2006, 12:05

To me almost everyone tier 7 unit is underpowered, or others, lower level units are overpowered.

When fighting Inferno i`m more woried about Sucubus chain attack, pit lords spells, hell chargers/cerberus attacks, imp stealing my mp than devils, it`s funy how tier 1 unit can cause you way much harm than tier 7...

Againt Necropolis most of the time you have to wory about legions of skeletal archers + vampires + liches than some dragons.

Paladins are broken units, i`m more afraid of them than angels. Seriously if they aren`t going to fix Klaus they should make Paladins tier 7.

Giants rock... Seriously i find most of 3-5lv tier units more dangerous than giants.

I can`t say anything about Warlock because i haven`t played with them r against them much.

With Sylvans i also haven`t played alot, but druids and hunters looks like main force of sylvans not some dragons.
...

User avatar
PhoenixReborn
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2014
Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: US

Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 12 Jul 2006, 12:16

The level 7's, all of them, just die too quickly to be of use. They are so expensive but then they end up dying immediately and there goes tons of money down the drain.

My least favorite is the spectral dragon, but I'm not crazy about the emerald dragon because it should be the phoenix.

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 12 Jul 2006, 12:52

Meandor wrote:I can`t say anything about Warlock because i haven`t played with them r against them much.

With Sylvans i also haven`t played alot, but druids and hunters looks like main force of sylvans not some dragons.
The dragons are faster then other level 7s,and that pushes them up a bit.But just a bit.I love using hydras(if you dont want any losses,just toss them in without anything,and theyll slowly grow back),assassins are devastating(3xtheir number of damage with poison 8| ).Blood witches are hellishly fast,have no retal,and return after they hit.Theyre almost like archers with unlimited ammo.Grim riders are so fun to use,especially with blood witches support.As for sylvan,pixies are annoying foes,but when you control them,they are mighty fine.Hunters are scary!Too powerful.And druids have heavy lightning damage.

juventas
Pixie
Pixie
Posts: 106
Joined: 04 Jun 2006

Unread postby juventas » 12 Jul 2006, 14:26

PhoenixReborn wrote:My least favorite is the spectral dragon, but I'm not crazy about the emerald dragon because it should be the phoenix.
Yup, I loved the phoenix as a faction unit. People have mentioned the "too many dragons" syndrome.

User avatar
Campaigner
Vampire
Vampire
Posts: 917
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Campaigner

Unread postby Campaigner » 12 Jul 2006, 20:47

I say that no tier 7 creature is underpowered. You have to look at things from a global balance view and in that view, Skeleton Archers are key for Necromancers and the rest support. Spectral Dragons have around 50 less hitpoints then the other lvl 7 upgraded creatures but Necropolis troops are supposed to be cheap and plentiful!

They're also much cheaper than other upgraded lvl 7 troops. 2900 gold + 2 Mercury is 1800 cheaper than the Emerald Dragon for instance.

I also think that the concept of "tiers" must end.

MrSteamTank
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 217
Joined: 12 Jun 2006

Unread postby MrSteamTank » 12 Jul 2006, 21:09

Campaigner wrote:I say that no tier 7 creature is underpowered. You have to look at things from a global balance view and in that view, Skeleton Archers are key for Necromancers and the rest support. Spectral Dragons have around 50 less hitpoints then the other lvl 7 upgraded creatures but Necropolis troops are supposed to be cheap and plentiful!

They're also much cheaper than other upgraded lvl 7 troops. 2900 gold + 2 Mercury is 1800 cheaper than the Emerald Dragon for instance.

I also think that the concept of "tiers" must end.
Obviously by underpowered I mean gold cost efficiency and how difficult they are to get. Sure you can look at something from a global balance perspective by having bad units counterbalanced by weak ones.

Right now the game kind of balances itself by allowing you to buy out the whole towns growth every week so they really only need to balance one towns week growth of units to anothers. Personally this is taking the easy way out to balance things.

However, you can easily tell how balanced the units are between each other by comparing their relative power to gold cost between each other. When it wildly fluctuates then it's not very balanced at all. When you see the slower low initiative units in action you generally see an imbalance.

Having one unit completely dominate over the rest is so boring and screams terrible balance in a game. Over-reliance forces players to stick with one strategy as it is superior over the others. Thus making the game boring.

It is perfectly reasonable to compare the tier 7 units overall efficiency(cost, growth, power comparison) given that they are all pretty hard to get to and the buildings to build them themselves are mostly the same price.

User avatar
Meandor
Blood Fury
Blood Fury
Posts: 478
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: Lithuania

Unread postby Meandor » 12 Jul 2006, 21:59

I say that no tier 7 creature is underpowered. You have to look at things from a global balance...
Problem here is that you spend more but get less.
...

User avatar
cornellian
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 233
Joined: 05 Jun 2006

Unread postby cornellian » 12 Jul 2006, 22:41

I believe the only 'less effective' tier 7 unit is the spectrals, but their weakness is somewhat compansated by the power of Raise Dead.. Unless gigantic armies clash, a good Necro hero will almost always have enough spellpower to revive most of the Spectrals that fell that turn, so they are actually better shocktroopers than they seem to be...

I can say a little more about Inferno as I usually play MP with them, and I think devils are not half as weak as they are thought to be. Archdevils are slow, yes, but even that slowness can be an integral part of the battle strategy for an Inferno player; for actually Devils are one of the prime reasons Inferno is like Luke Skywalker!!; fighting against stronger enemies but is "full of surprises" :D.. Their summon Pit Lords ability is very overlooked and can easily turn the tides in any battle. As the unsuspecting enemy players' armies always gang up on succubi, cerberi and nightmares; a sacrificial stack of cerberi slaughtered at the front row usually is enough for Inferno to come up with a very nasty surprise of dozens of Pit Lords, within reach to every enemy.. As a matter of fact, last week I won a gargantuan game deciding battle in MP with a strategic use of that ability, first sacrificing my cerberi to keep his ranged troops and wraiths busy and then blocking my opponents' ~150+ liches and few thousand skellie archers with my 60+ summoned pit lords.

So in short, there is no bad tier 7 unit, just bad tactics. You might need to find alternative ways to maximize their efficiency..

Ursus
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 1
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Unread postby Ursus » 12 Jul 2006, 23:03

For comparisms the whole faction, including the hero and unique skills should be looked at.

In my experience (only played hotseat, not MP) the only faction that is truly underpowered is Academy.

The Academy hero is the only hero whos main stat (knowledge) has diminishing returns. This is because after a certain point additional knowledge has no combat effect. Artificier is perhaps knowledge dependant, but it is also the hardest racial skill to use due to the extremely high costs attached to it.

The Academy is completely reliant on Archmages and Rakashasa to do the work. Archmages are extremely fragile however, and Rakashasa can be blocked and suffer low initiative.

Due to these weaknesses, I suggest increasing Titans health and cost/effectiveness. The Thundercloud Temple is the most expensive creature building, and the Titan shares the highest cost per unit with the Emerald Dragon. Shooting isn't a big enough benefit to earn the lowest cost/effectiveness rating among level 7s.

Black Dragons are cheaper, have magic immunity, and an AOE attack. They can also cross the map in one turn. I would hardly call the Dungeon Castles 1-6 units weaker then the Academy 1-6, seeing the power of Blood Furies, Shadow Matriarchs, Grim Raiders, and Assassins. The Warlock hero also has a more usefull primary stat, a more powerful racial ability, and his mage guild stocks destruction spells. Due to this, I would suggest increasing Titan stats to being similiar to Black Dragon stats, and keep the Shooter ability instead of the Black Dragons arsenal of abilities.

This is just my opinion. I have only played Haven, Necropolis and Academy enough to believe my opinion carries any weight.

User avatar
cornellian
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 233
Joined: 05 Jun 2006

Unread postby cornellian » 12 Jul 2006, 23:07

Agreed, I want those old days of endless "Titan vs. Black Dragons" discussions from HoMM II return.. Not that there was any doubt that Titans were better :D..

juventas
Pixie
Pixie
Posts: 106
Joined: 04 Jun 2006

Unread postby juventas » 13 Jul 2006, 04:09

Ursus wrote:The Warlock hero also has a more usefull primary stat, a more powerful racial ability, and his mage guild stocks destruction spells.
I agree with everything but this part. Knowledge + artificer is a good combo. Magic mirror and wizard's mark are good counters to empowered spells. Elemental chain is weak. Also note that wizards and warlocks get pretty much the same spellpower, except wizards get knowledge while warlocks get attack.

The wizard has a library which gives him an excellent chance to get a lot of powerful destruction spells. He is also associated with summoning (summon phoenix and the ability to clone his titans) and light magic (scales better with large armies).

But yeah, wizard units are a little lackluster and cost too much. Artificer costs too much. This relegates the wizard to a late-game faction. Warlocks are good early, mid, and late game.


Return to “Heroes V-VI”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 44 guests