Diplomacy in H5 -- how does it work?

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Diplomacy in H5 -- how does it work?

Postby playforfun » Jun 19 2006, 9:02

In my last game (non-campaign map Heritage, hard difficulty) I deliberately picked this skill but after numerous battles I still couldn't get one stack of creatures that offer to join me for free nor at a cost. By the time I got defeated by the AI my hero was at level 17 and still none offered to join. I do recall that on the same map/difficulty setting, it was rare but once in a while some creatures would offer to join me even if I didn't have that diplomacy skill...

Is this a bug or did I miss something here? Can someone enlighten me this?

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Postby reynaert » Jun 19 2006, 9:14

diplomacy surely isn't your friendly skill it used to be. it's been toned down quite a lot, to the point you barely wonder what it does in the first place.

(necromancers- has anyone seen them getting offered leadership?)

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jun 19 2006, 9:37

reynaert wrote:(necromancers- has anyone seen them getting offered leadership?)


Markal starts with it in the campaign.Pretty useless.

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Postby Gaidal Cain » Jun 19 2006, 9:56

reynaert wrote:(necromancers- has anyone seen them getting offered leadership?)


Yes. Had diplomavy worked better it would perhaps been worth to pick it.
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Postby cornellian » Jun 19 2006, 14:51

I believe, judging from my short experience with HoMM V (just campaigns and couple FFAs) diplomacy has indeed been toned down quite a bit from previous HoMMs.. But I noticed that you seem to have a better chance with creatures of your faction (rather naturally of course) and when you have, in your army, a number of the mob you are trying to get to join you. That is, it is more likely for a bunch of priests if you are Haven and have priest/inquisitors in your army.

Though Diplomacy is hardly the hidden gem it was before, barely worth taking (much like the rest of leadership)..

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jun 19 2006, 15:05

cornellian wrote:Though Diplomacy is hardly the hidden gem it was before, barely worth taking (much like the rest of leadership)..


I disagree with that last word.The leadirship itself is excelent.+ on moral is always worth having(unles youre a necromancer).

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 19 2006, 15:08

DaemianLucifer wrote:.+ on moral is always worth having(unles youre a necromancer).


He might have meant the abilities that come with the skill. Most of the primary ones are better for a secondary hero.
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Postby Orfinn » Jun 19 2006, 15:14

Its also mentioned that if your hero encounter a group of neutrals that she/he are specialized in lets say hunters, the chance they will join you is even higher + diplomacy and larger army than the neutral stack, even better. Works out just nicely for me ;) I choose it as my second or third ability, along with another second row ability like estates (skill wheel) and a third, final ability like gate master (demon lord). But this is as said best for a second hero to have.

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Postby ClownRoyal » Jun 19 2006, 15:33

I'm pretty disappointed in Diplomacy overall. Maybe it does cause neutral stacks to join more often, but I don't really see much of a difference. I have not once had any stack offer to join me for a price, and I think that's a shame that it's either free or they run away.

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Postby cornellian » Jun 19 2006, 20:22

ThunderTitan wrote:
DaemianLucifer wrote:.+ on moral is always worth having(unles youre a necromancer).


He might have meant the abilities that come with the skill. Most of the primary ones are better for a secondary hero.


Yes, of course I meant the secondary skills; after all no one would mind troops with acting like mass hasted in combat would they?

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 19 2006, 21:05

Well Leadership does have good secondary abilities for Demon Lords (Gate Master), Knights (Aura of Swiftness and Divine Guidance) and Warlocks (Aura of Swiftness).
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jun 19 2006, 21:11

Youve just made me look into the wheel a bit...The fallen knight ability seems very nice.-1 to morale,but +5 sp for casting dark magic.It makes me wonder why cant we have more abilities like this?

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Postby Gus » Jun 19 2006, 21:28

you mean with good and bad sides? If yes, then i agree wholeheartedly. It adds a lot of flavour, imho.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jun 19 2006, 21:36

Gus wrote:you mean with good and bad sides? If yes, then i agree wholeheartedly. It adds a lot of flavour, imho.


Thats exactly what I mean.It makes you choose your path carefully and plan a lot ahead.Especially if you want to mix such skills.

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Postby Paradox » Jun 20 2006, 0:02

I cant get any stacks to join me, in Heroes 3 i'd always have neutral stacks wanting to join me, simply because my army was so such and they wanted to join me for greater glory :P i always smited them though. but..in heroes 5 none so far have wanted to join me even when i've got 20 archangels and it's a pack of peasents, they just flee.

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Postby jeff » Jun 20 2006, 0:11

There seems to be a very narrow range of army strength which it works. Too weak and they attach, too strong and they flee, it is not that useful of a skill anymore.
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Postby playforfun » Jun 20 2006, 7:12

Judging from the experience of everyone here I am inclined to believe that the workings of diplomacy has probably been toned down a lot, to an extent that it doesn't work as "intended". It has always been (imo) a most powerful skill in the past heroes series where a diplomatic hero can get an instant army without much effort, and frankly speaking I have always wanted it to be toned down.

Until other hardcore fans discover how this skill works in the current version of H5 or the game designer coming out to give us a tip, I am assuming that it is indeed not working as intended and I' propose the following for now:

1) Allow a portion (i.e. less than 100%) of the wandering stacks to join at a chance, rather than the "traditional" way of an always all-or-nothing join.

2) Limit the number of free joiners by a function like this:
no. of free joiners = f(join probability, stack strength, creature growth)

An example will be like this (say for a wandering stack of 30 black dragons):

i) A portion of the stack will have a higher chance to join. For example, in this case, it will happen more often that, say, 10% of the black dragons in the wandering stack will offer to join you for free. When that happens, depending on whether you accept or decline, 27 dragons will fight you while 3 dragons will fight on your side (if you accept), or 30 dragons will fight you (if you decline), or 0 dragons will fight you (if you decline and they choose to flee).
ii) The maximum no. of free joiners will be limited by, say, 5 times the normal creature growth rate. So, assuming the weekly growth rate of black dragons is 2, then max. no. of freely joining dragons will be 5 * 2. i.e. 10. In the current example, then, at most only 10 of the 30 wandering dragons will join you for free.

Of course, other factors, such as diplomacy skill of the hero, stack alignment, your army strength, etc can be taken into account to vary the chance/numbers of free joiners. It'd be probably be much more work but a hella more interesting to have more "diplomatic options". E.g. the wandering stack of black dragons may have a message like "if you let me eat 100 archers and 50 griffins of your army, we will join you for free".

In any case, I'd just like to get back a great skill from our beloved series.

Comments are welcome. :)

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jun 20 2006, 11:42

@playforfun

You are suggesting something similar to HIV,but improved.Not likely to happen.

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Postby Ari » Jun 20 2006, 16:21

DaemianLucifer wrote:
reynaert wrote:(necromancers- has anyone seen them getting offered leadership?)


Markal starts with it in the campaign.Pretty useless.


I'd disagree. There's one or two maps there that involve Markal leading non-undead troops for most of the battles. Given his alignment, these troops would be at -2 or so without his leadership.

As a quick aside, I notice that there's no *extra* morale hit for undead anymore. Is this new in v or has this been in for a while?

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jun 20 2006, 16:25

Ari wrote:I'd disagree. There's one or two maps there that involve Markal leading non-undead troops for most of the battles. Given his alignment, these troops would be at -2 or so without his leadership.


Im on map 4,and Im steal leading just undead units with markal.Makes no sense to mix them.

Ari wrote:As a quick aside, I notice that there's no *extra* morale hit for undead anymore. Is this new in v or has this been in for a while?


Extra morale hit?What do you mean?


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