Name the Units you Find Overpowered!!!

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
MrSteamTank
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Name the Units you Find Overpowered!!!

Unread postby MrSteamTank » 14 Jun 2006, 03:23

I haven't played this game enough to mention with any degree of confidence as to which units are currently overpowered but I'd like to see the opinions of other people who have more experience with Heroes V.

So I'll start the ball rolling by mentioning the 2 units that seem overpowered for me. Grim Raiders and Paladins. :D Now post yours!

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Unread postby Psychobabble » 14 Jun 2006, 03:37

I'm not sure there's any units which seem overpowered to the extent of, say, H4's vampire (though that was mainly a problem wtih necromancy I guess). There's units which hit above their weight, for sure, like blood maidens, sprites and mages but I don't know that they're overpowered in the context of the town as a whole.

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Unread postby MrSteamTank » 14 Jun 2006, 03:48

Well having more versatility in a unit isn't an issue to me. However, sometimes you end up in scenarios were you simply HAVE to get X unit because it's so good. In that context yes the unit is overpowered either within the town itself or against other opposing towns that cannot counter unit X.

So let me rephrase my question to something more specific. Is their any unit that for the time and cost required in getting them seem to give you too much of an edge to the point your whole entire army revolves around them?

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Unread postby zhuge » 14 Jun 2006, 04:13

IMHO it's still a bit early to tell which units are overly strong for their level/faction. With more experience, perceptions may change and my views are of course no exception.

Here are my first impressions for 2 factions:

Haven:
Marksmen - Precise Shot deals a ludicrous amount of damage to high level creatures due to the fact that it completely ignores defence. Compare that with the Ancient Behemoth in H3 which only ignored 80% of enemy defence (and that being an upgraded L7) and you can see how insanely damaging the ability is.
As it is, pocketing the Marksmen with Conscripts/Squires is now a major tactic in H5 more than ever and against slow and large creatures, you can overcome a HUGE power difference and still win.
Even without the special ability, Marksmen are still the mainstay of ranged offence as compared to the tank-like Priests which are pretty mediocre in terms of damage. With the special ability, they are ultimate high level creature slayers.

Royal Griffins - the upgrade gives more damage which is fine but the ability Battle Dive is terrifying for 2 things:
1)you can't hit the Griffs once they start executing Dive (complete immunity to any form of targeting)
2)the actual hit does a staggering 2x normal damage WITHOUT retaliation.
Couple this with the Griffins high initiative and you can see that pulling off repeated Dives is going to be a very irritating tactic.
And yes the AI executes it too.


Sylvan:
Hunters/Master Hunters - Insane damage:hp ratios. Yes, one of those units which actually have MORE damage than hp. Even the Sharpshooter in H3 didn't have such a wayward ratio and those were specialized units.
Tack on Battle Frenzy and Archery and you have a real wrecking ball of a unit. If they shoot first, the enemy will be crippled... if their numbers get decimated first, your offensive power will be greatly reduced.
Compare Squires (damage 2-5) and Master Hunters (damage 10-16) and you will swiftly realize how huge the damage gap is between faction units of similar level.... and that is not even factoring in the Warding Arrows special ability yet.

Druids - Never really liked direct damage spellcasting units, as I've always thought they dealt way too much damage. However Nival still maintains the odd logarithmic progression of damage relative to stack size, so the issue will not be exacerbated in games of longer duration and larger stacks.


Comments/discussion are most welcome.

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Unread postby Psychobabble » 14 Jun 2006, 04:47

Actually, you're possibly right on the master hunter. Especially if you get x2 or x4 damage with luck and/or favoured enemy it can be game ending.

And I don't find the battle dive that powerful. Unless they can get it in before your unit attacks, you can quite often predict which unit they'll go for (your best shooter) and move accordingly. But if you guess wrong you're in double trouble :).

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Unread postby MrSteamTank » 14 Jun 2006, 04:51

Ah I guess It's not just me. :D Well in time we'll tell but I was just wanted to see which units other people found too powerful so I could mass them and beat the campaigns. hehe.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 14 Jun 2006, 06:59

For now,I only find hunters as really overpowering units.Double shot for an unupgraded unit?Too strong.Coupled with their high initiative and damage,they rule the battle.

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Re: Name the Units you Find Overpowered!!!

Unread postby erased. over. out » 14 Jun 2006, 07:33

MrSteamTank wrote:
So I'll start the ball rolling by mentioning the 2 units that seem overpowered for me. Grim Raiders and Paladins. :D Now post yours!
I think twice before attacking Arch Mages (they pick off atleast 1 level 7 unit!) and Master Hunters. I don't really think any of the units are overpowered- just really, really dangerous. But if you talk about spells, I think repeated use of phantom forces is a bit much, especially if the hero can cast spells after every few creatures' turns.

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Unread postby Rapier » 14 Jun 2006, 09:29

Haven: Priests are too high a level for what they can do, Marksman are too good considering all the peasants can become Marksman. Although without that, they're not too bad. I would probably suggesting swapping Marksman and Squires in the list (possibly even keeping the number per week as they are now, even though Marksman become tier 3) The reason for this is just so that you can't do peasants straight to archers/marksman.

Sylvan: Master hunters are way too good for a level 3, the problem is they can't really take any other spot, I would be okay with them staying this good if say, Pixies were made weaker, because those things are probably the best level 1 until a mass of skeleton archers is possible much later. The problem for the Sylvan early game, is that they have 3 very good units, I think Sylvan have the best army line up right now.

Academy: Arch Mages and Djinn defiantly should be switched in level. I'll fight Djinn when I can only really fight level 3-4, but I won't fight mages until I can fight level 6! Apart from that, I'd like to see Gargoyles tanking better, I'd say more damage with the h3 gargs but the new ones I just can't see them being damage inflictors. Maybe more speed so they can engage faster, although if they get buffed, the Golems probably need to be made a bit weaker.

Necropolis: Spectral Dragons are too weak, of all the level 7's in the game this is the only one that I don't want to buy out each week, they only get priority over Zombies in my undead buying. Apart from that, I think Wraiths should be able to use Harm touch more often, make it a % part of their attack or something (and then they can be the level 7 killers, and Spectral dragons can be made better at killing lower levels without changing the fact that they're meant to be the weakest level 7). Satisfied with all the other units in the Undead line up.. maybe a change to ghosts is needed although evasion doesn't bother me it seems to really annoy a lot of players.

Dungeon: Grim Raiders are a bit weak for a level 4 imo, lizard bite is nice, and they have a good charge, so maybe they need to be weak, but I've never once taken them in favour of Hydras (available at the same time). They seem more of a novelty unit that is most effectively used with lizard bite supporting Minotaurs and Furies than as direct damaging entities, and they don't survive well. I'd like to see them drop to tier 3, with corresponding stats changes (but no loss of abilities) while Minotaurs go up to tier 4.

Inferno: Horned demons need a bit more initiative then they would be just fine as a level 2. I think Inferno has all it's troops at the right tier however, and only need minor tweaking to some of their units. Archdevil's need to be better tanks imo, so they can survive to outlive a stack and use Summon Pit fiends, possibly pit fiends need slightly more initiative as well, although they’re already very good. The only problem with Inferno is they rely on the upgrades for any kind of utility at the low levels, and I think some of the upgraded buildings need to be a bit cheaper because of that. (Making Cerbrei easier to get at the start would make Inferno’s early game competitive with all others except perhaps Sylvan, who get the best archers, and no retal on there fast sprites ~ ie. The strongest.).
~ Rapier.

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Unread postby zhuge » 14 Jun 2006, 10:11

I don't mind the base damage of the Marksmen, really.
In H3 they were 2-3 damage and shot twice which gives 4-6 overall
In H5 they shoot once and do 2-8 damage.
So Attack/Defence considerations notwithstanding, the average damage is basically the same, with the H5 counterpart having a wider range.

Traditionally, Marksmen have been a key upgrade for Castle/Haven so I don't see any reason to make major changes.

It's the Precise Shot ability which I have a problem with. Make it 40% defence reduction if you really must (similar to that of H3 regular Behemoths). But completely ignoring defence is crazy.
Once you go up against another hero with high defence in addition to the high level units, the effect will be even more marked... and even more ridiculous.


I don't mind a bit of swapping as suggested by Rapier but since the heart of the issue IMHO is really Precise Shot I would suggest nerfing that first.


As for dangerous units... any shooter/caster with direct damage spells is usually very damaging to many armies unless you can dish out damage fast enough. Since casters can't be blocked (unlike regular shooters) and most units now cannot reach all the way across the battlefield in 1 turn, direct damage casters like Mages and Druids have become disproportionately deadly.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 14 Jun 2006, 11:34

zhuge wrote:It's the Precise Shot ability which I have a problem with. Make it 40% defence reduction if you really must (similar to that of H3 regular Behemoths). But completely ignoring defence is crazy.
Once you go up against another hero with high defence in addition to the high level units, the effect will be even more marked... and even more ridiculous.
Considering that your enemy has to be one space away from you,this isnt some kind of a problem.

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Unread postby Skullmane » 14 Jun 2006, 11:56

Actualy, it's three tiles away

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Unread postby Kiyoko » 14 Jun 2006, 12:23

i don't think precise shot is overpowered at all, just keep away from the marksmen and kill them off with ranged/spells. I would like to see it changed though to maybe ignore 100% def 1 tile away and then having the bonus reduced by 15-20% for each additional tile. i haven't played that much but so far i have never ever had any use for precise shot. this way it would be easier to use but not too ovepowered when you make the mistake of getting too close to them.

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Unread postby Campaigner » 14 Jun 2006, 12:34

I'd say that you should drop the tier talk and focus on the faction as a whole. Every troop in a faction shouldn't be as powerful or fast as every other troop of a different faction.

Master Hunters and Arch Mages are very powerful and a key unit that when you get them, things will be easier. But Sylvan and Academy isn't the only ones to get those troops.
Haven get Paladins.
Necropolis get VampireLords.
Dungeon get Blood Furies and Infernoget Succubi Mistresses. All powerful troops that makes your life easier.

And a powerful and expensive (wood) early and midgame is kinda Sylvans trademark. Need 3 of every rare resource for the druidbuilding f.e.

The Master Hunter and Marksman is the bane of slow melee, but that is their role! Against ranged troops or spellcasters their effectiveness beomes much lower (A.I loves to target them) and against fast melee and flyers that will reach them in two turns they're also less effective. And against creatures with great movement (Emerald and Black Dragons and Paladins) they may not even get one shot off and will be toast!

They also don't got that much hitpoints and thus direct damage spells take quite a bit of them away every cast.

And the term "overpowered" directly makes me think of troops that has to be nerfed so I refuse to use that term. Howevery, I consider Mages/Arch Mages, Master Hunters, Elder Druids and Cavaliers/Paladins to be highly effective.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 14 Jun 2006, 13:04

I kinda agree with Campaigner on this one. It's not that they're too good, it's that there are some units that are too weak (mostly the Low Init ones).
The only one that's a bit overpowered is the Paladin, mostly because of it's special being a bit too strong.
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Unread postby cornellian » 14 Jun 2006, 16:56

I agree, 'overpowered' implies nerfing, so I will write the ones I usually avoid fighting against...

Haven: Paladins (who else?) but they are a problem only when they are in an enemy army, not when they are neutrals..
Sylvan: Those damned druids!! You can build an army of unicorns, hunter and druids alone.
Inferno: Imps... Six week's worth of imps steal about all the mana you have unless you are a wizard and as they usually act first
Dungeon: Blood furies.. They have very high incentive and can reach 2x2s
Wizards: Mages... Bane of armies with 3-4 bir creatures..
Necropolis: They are all manageable, unless the enemy has 1k+ archers of course...

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 14 Jun 2006, 17:23

cornellian wrote: Sylvan: Those damned druids!! You can build an army of unicorns, hunter and druids alone.
I'd use Treants instead of Unicorns. Way better tanks.
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Unread postby Gus » 14 Jun 2006, 18:02

But unicorns protect against Magic.

As for the Marksmen (or any ranged attacker, i guess) being attacked on the first turn (cf. Campaigner's post)... Well, you know you can put Marksmen in the corner, with Squires in the diagonal, and tada, they're protected from large creatures.

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 14 Jun 2006, 18:18

Gus wrote:As for the Marksmen (or any ranged attacker, i guess) being attacked on the first turn (cf. Campaigner's post)... Well, you know you can put Marksmen in the corner, with Squires in the diagonal, and tada, they're protected from large creatures.
Doesnt work against cerbery with a hero that has tactics.

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Unread postby dixing » 14 Jun 2006, 18:21

hmph... succubi mistress I believe... she is quite overpowered. a large number of her kind really gives any army the edge :(
I think ranged retaliation should be taken away from her.


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