Battles are just too fast

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Gaidal Cain
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 13 Jun 2006, 09:58

Ari wrote:I've had similar things happen to me (on both the giving and receiving end). Does anybody know how hero order is determined? They seem to have no initiative stat, and there seems to be a seemingly random element to placement in the action order. *Is* this random, or is there a some underlying rule system that determines when (and how often) heros get to act?
Heroes have initiative 10, if the files in the data.pak are used to determine it. And starting order is randomized.
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Ethric
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Unread postby Ethric » 13 Jun 2006, 10:07

Really, totally random? I did wonder about that... pretty weird if it's random.
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Gaidal Cain
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 13 Jun 2006, 10:13

Well, it does depend on initiative as well, so that faster units are more likely to go first, but yes, it's random.
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Linky
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Unread postby Linky » 13 Jun 2006, 12:11

Three things:

To my experience it seems that the defending hero usually acts first in combat.


You guys do know that you don't have to put all your units in combat, right? If you are seriously overpowering a hero and want to avoid ranged unit losses, remove all but the heaviest tanks to keep losses to the minimum.


I, too, would like simultaneous retaliation to return.

magritte2
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Unread postby magritte2 » 13 Jun 2006, 12:51

I don't think they're any faster than before. Play the Sorceress in HOMM 2 for some REALLY fast battles. You pretty much have to massacre your opponents before they get a chance to attack.

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Rapier
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Unread postby Rapier » 13 Jun 2006, 13:12

Simultaneous retaliation wouldn't stop your stack from getting KO'ed in the first round the way the original post was complaining about.. it would mean that your soon to be dead stack got to do a little bit more than it does... but at the end of the first round, that stack of archers or whatever, would still be dead. Before they got a go themselves.

Simultaneous retaliation would only mean that the first of the two attacking stacks took more damage, which is perhaps fairer, but implementing this wouldn't change the problem as outlined either.

What it would take to change it, would be to make it so no unit can cross the battlefield in 1 turn, so that no units can beat on a stack before that stack gets a go… then it would become the prerogative of archers, you could make it so archers range isn’t as long as the battlefield too. Then no one could hit a stack in the first round, and so you would have more time to prepare and work out what to focus on and how to act.

Although at the same time, wouldn’t this change make battles longer for no real difference? I mean… so it takes you the first round to move into position to attack, and then you attack, your opponent takes just as long as you. The only difference is that you get to see how your opponent set up, so there isn’t a random chance. Right now it’s sort of luck what your grim raiders can hit on their first go, based on what your opponent put opposite them, with this extra round it would be more controlled.

Another way to get this effect would be to have simultaneous unit deployment, instead of setting up your army irrespective of the enemy army (Which you can’t see and so can’t really set up tactically anyway). Have it so that you place one unit, and then the computer places one (or the place one, depending on who attacks perhaps), you could have it based on level of troops, or else have it so that stacks can be placed in any order as long as it’s 1 for 1.

Then you could save your archer stacks for last, put them where they’re not opposite grim raiders, you could put something of your own down opposite the grim raiders which you think can survive their charge and do damage… you take away the random element of battle start-up which is currently in heroes 5.

While this idea doesn’t necessarily stop first round stack KO, it gives you more chance to make sure the target that the enemy can aim for can survive the attacks, or isn’t important to your gamelan.

Finally, a sorceresses in homm2 that doesn’t leave behind dwarfs can afford to not kill fast or lose.
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 13 Jun 2006, 14:20

Rapier wrote:Simultaneous retaliation wouldn't stop your stack from getting KO'ed in the first round the way the original post was complaining about.. it would mean that your soon to be dead stack got to do a little bit more than it does... but at the end of the first round, that stack of archers or whatever, would still be dead. Before they got a go themselves.
Actualy it does, as the other creatures shouldn't be able to attack the same stack because the first one blocks them. Maybe you can squeze in 2 creatures on 1 stack.

And with Sim Retal it's like they did have a go, as the damage is the same. Unless were talking shooters, which should always be on the 2nd row anyway, where none of the H5 criters can reach him anyway.
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MrSteamTank
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Unread postby MrSteamTank » 13 Jun 2006, 17:05

If you put a small melee stack in front of another more fragile stack you still get smoked as aoe spells will blow you away. And aoe spells are very easily available in most situations.

To be honest the only real change I'd like to see is increase the battle size ONLY in hero vs hero battles by 3-4 squares and allow heroes to always go first at the very start of the battle before anyone else.

I mean the sorcs in homm2 was uber fast. But guess what? Remember champions and pheonixs were ultra fragile. They had way less hp than bone dragons yet were more expensive and had a more expensive building. As for champions they were rough but they were rather fragile as well and could be disabled rather easily. The only issue with that game was that you would always keep one very fast unit stack in your army so you could cast spells first as that was so gamebreaking.

Now they have the randomization of who gets their turns first in hommV(gamebreaking luck) along with where you get to place your units in the tactics phase(gamebreaking luck).


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