Enlightenment

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atma6
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Enlightenment

Unread postby atma6 » 08 Jun 2006, 04:51

Everywhere I look I see Enlightenment getting a lot of flak from everyone. Now I'm not going to say its the best skill or anything but I believe its far more useful than many people give it credit for.

Firstly the main attraction is the stat level ups not the extra experience. These stat level ups convey a 50% advantage stat-wise to character with enlightenment, and that is especially useful to characters such as Warlocks and Necros who will get mainly extra spellpower which will allow far stronger spells. Haven, Inferno, and Sylvan heroes will also get a great boost in attack/defence which at decent level will provide a sizable percentage increase to their creatures. Wizards get the shaft in this department as they would mainly get knowledge which is less useful as they have bottomless pockets of mana.

Secondly a big problem a lot of people mention about enlightenment is the fact that its associated skills are absolutely terrible, and I will not at this point disagree at all, but it is also known that leveling comes far slower later on (yes I have a point).

Now the standard argument is that you've wasted skill points on Enlightenment when you could have invested in attack or defence and have gotten Vitality, or Archery instead of Scholar. Well true this takes up a primary skill slot, but it is not likely that you will be able to max all of your skills before you end the game. It is three skill points that will be used ONLY, after this skill points can be used to bolster the rest of your skills.

Now I know that those three skill point could allow you to get a lot of perks and that for smaller maps enlightenment is far less useful but stats do matter and enough of them (say +15 if lvl30, which I would say is perfectly achievable in campaigns) will make a huge impact. Now for standard large maps you'll probably get between level 20-28, but even so it is an advantage, and I have not had any regret while playing on heroic.

Now again I'm not saying its the best skill or even up near luck, nor should it replace a primary magic skill, but it is by no means underpowered and can be very effective at giving you an edge. Remember when trying enlightenment out it is a gradual skill and you won't notice huge changes as you will be getting gradually more powrful. I expect a great backlash against this as enlightenment seems to be hated, and I apologize if my opinion strongly conflicts with yours.

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asandir
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Unread postby asandir » 08 Jun 2006, 05:20

I also don't mind it atma .... have only really used it with Markal, as a stepping stone to some of his better abilities, and it does provide a good boost IMO ....

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DaemianLucifer
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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 08 Jun 2006, 06:02

Enlightment isnt that bad as a skill,but the abilities asociated with it mostly are very bad.

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asandir
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Unread postby asandir » 08 Jun 2006, 06:57

yeah, agree with that DL

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Unread postby JamaY » 08 Jun 2006, 07:08

Well, lets say you get expert enlightentment, plus 5 other expert skills adn 2 secondary skills for each primary (excluding enlightenment), that's a total of 28 skill points...around lvl25 since you start with 3 skills.
What I mean is you don't need to get enlightenment's secondary abilities if you have other skills with better secondaries (attack and defense for example). The only problem with this is you'll be offered scholar and arcane intuition when you could be offered archery or vitality..

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Gaidal Cain
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Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 08 Jun 2006, 09:48

It's funny that they lumped three of the worst skills in H3, and one OK, into one group. The advanced skills are also not very good, with the exceptions of Know Your Enemy and Lord of the Undead. With Dark Revelation, you're basically getting one skill point for the price of taking much longer to get to the next level...
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Unread postby Campaigner » 08 Jun 2006, 10:01

Is +15 statpoints if you're lvl 30 correct? I know it says in Enlightenments description that you get statpoints for the lvls already got but have anybody controlled it?
I mean, if you get it at lvl 20 to 22 then you should get all those missed stats but do you get them? That would make Enlightmenment a worthwhile endgame skill.
And does anybody know if the extra statpoints are random or heroclass decided?

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Qurqirish Dragon
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Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 08 Jun 2006, 14:20

Campaigner wrote:Is +15 statpoints if you're lvl 30 correct? I know it says in Enlightenments description that you get statpoints for the lvls already got but have anybody controlled it?
I mean, if you get it at lvl 20 to 22 then you should get all those missed stats but do you get them? That would make Enlightmenment a worthwhile endgame skill.
And does anybody know if the extra statpoints are random or heroclass decided?
Yes, you do get the points for "missed" levels.
When you advance from basic to advanced (1 stat/4 levels -> 1/3levels), you will notice an immediate gain of points you would have had. Similarly from advanced to expert. (When I finally got expert in the warlock campaign, I was level 22 or so, and got 4 bonus stat points after. I got 3 spell power and one attack- a very nice set)

As for dark revelation, since that is an advanced skill, you can leave it until you are in the mid-upper 20's in level. When you need a million XP for the next level, getting it for free isn't bad- and remember you also immediately get another stat point (for the level, and maybe 2 points if the enlighenment bonus kicks in) and another skill/ability choice.
If for some reason I hurried for dark revelation by level 7, then I agree that would be a waste, but later on it is very nice. Particularly onthe campaigns where you have a level cap anyway (Max level earlier means finish the scenario faster)

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Wolfshanze
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Unread postby Wolfshanze » 08 Jun 2006, 14:29

Enlightenment is like a one-trick pony in my book... at least in the campaigns.

The stat raises are nice and really the only thing worthwhile. The subskills all stink on ice, and the experience gains aren't worth anything since there's a level cap in every campaign scenario.

Once again, the stat raises are good, but you give up all the other nice bonuses you would have gotten if you chose any other skill (like attack or defend which more then make up for the stat increases in my book, plus come with useful secondary skills).

I think Enlightenment would be nice in uncapped scenarios and/or multiplayer, but for the campaigns, you can do better taking any other skill if you ask me.

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Rapier
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Unread postby Rapier » 08 Jun 2006, 15:50

Campaigner wrote:Is +15 statpoints if you're lvl 30 correct? I know it says in Enlightenments description that you get statpoints for the lvls already got but have anybody controlled it?
I mean, if you get it at lvl 20 to 22 then you should get all those missed stats but do you get them? That would make Enlightmenment a worthwhile endgame skill.
And does anybody know if the extra statpoints are random or heroclass decided?
Random but heroclass decided, like all the others, and if you take Enlightment at level 20 it does work retroactively like it's supposed to, because I've taken it then. It adds all the extra skill points as little icons above your heroes head right after the level up (it's difficult to see them all though, they go fast and get coverd by artifacts/necromacy ect).

I also quite like some of the second tier bonus abilities you can get off of Enlightment (Lord of the Undead is the most useful), Intelligence can also be quite nice on a non-knowledge hero. Scholar and Arcane Intuition really need other bonuses as well.

Dark Revolation is easily the worst though, getting + 1 stat point for your level is useless.
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juventas
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Unread postby juventas » 08 Jun 2006, 21:45

Wolfshanze wrote:Enlightenment is like a one-trick pony in my book... at least in the campaigns.

The stat raises are nice and really the only thing worthwhile. The subskills all stink on ice, and the experience gains aren't worth anything since there's a level cap in every campaign scenario.

Once again, the stat raises are good, but you give up all the other nice bonuses you would have gotten if you chose any other skill (like attack or defend which more then make up for the stat increases in my book, plus come with useful secondary skills).

I think Enlightenment would be nice in uncapped scenarios and/or multiplayer, but for the campaigns, you can do better taking any other skill if you ask me.
I think you missed the point. Like atma6 said, you won't be able to max all your skills, so you can max all your other skills and save the subskills of enlightenment for last. The thing he didn't consider is that, once you take enlightenment, you may be forced to take an enlightenment subskill if you have rotten luck at level-up.

I don't see how the subskills of attack or defense are so much better than the stat boost from enlightenment. Let's look at it this way: every 5% = 1 stat point.

So defense gives you +6 defense from melee, +4 from archery.
Attack gives you +3 attack for melee, +4 for archery.
At level 20, enlightenment can give you +10 attack or +10 defense (unless you're a wizard; then you get stuck with knowledge... ugh...).

Seems like an extra +5 stat points is a pretty good trade for the subskills of attack or defense. That's 25% damage. If you're a Necromancer, you may still want to take attack over enlightenment since battle frenzy will give your 1000 skeletons an extra 1000 damage. But enlightenment would still be better than vitality.

Let's say some enemies do 2000 points of damage to your skeletons:
With vitality: 333 killed
With +5 defense from level 20 enlightenment: 375 killed
With +10 defense from level 30 enlightenment: 250 killed

Not a huge difference. 3 skills to do the work of 5? Not a bad trade, right? Of course, that doesn't help against spells, but it helps a small group of powerful creatures a lot more than vitality does. So, although it won't help your skeletons as much, your spectral dragons are a lot better off.

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Continuity
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Unread postby Continuity » 08 Jun 2006, 22:51

Are we sure of those calculations for each stat point?

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Gus
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Unread postby Gus » 08 Jun 2006, 22:56

The damage augmentation/reduction is calculated differently when the attacker's attack is higher than the defender's defense, and when it is lower. But roughly, yeah, it's 5% per point.

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asandir
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Unread postby asandir » 09 Jun 2006, 00:23

I just think it's great that there is this debate, some like it some don't, some like it cause of the skill itself and dislike cause of the abilities, some find the abilities worthwhile .... and my friends .... that's what it's all about

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vicheron
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Unread postby vicheron » 09 Jun 2006, 00:33

Enlightenment is good for Godric in the campaigns since his level gets reduced but he keeps all his skills.

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PhoenixReborn
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 09 Jun 2006, 03:33

Well I was doing a map today, and I picked Dungeon with a random hero. The hero started with enlightenment and intelligence. The intelligence boost to the mana really helped because she didn't have much mana to begin with.

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Qurqirish Dragon
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Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 09 Jun 2006, 14:42

Also, as I noted in another thread, Eagle- er. Arcane Intuition allows you to learn spells from your own spell-casting creatures, as well as enemies.. That is very helpful in a map with few towns that use your schools. (care to learn meteor shower from your pit lords? More certain than building a 4th level guild!) How about both lightning and ice bolt from druids- your starting town will most likely only have one of them!
And even with the library, think of all the spells a wizard can learn from genies!

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5il3nc3r
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Unread postby 5il3nc3r » 09 Jun 2006, 14:43

Or learning resurrection from your archangels? ^^

It's really useful :)

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Alamar
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Unread postby Alamar » 10 Jun 2006, 22:17

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:Also, as I noted in another thread, Eagle- er. Arcane Intuition allows you to learn spells from your own spell-casting creatures, as well as enemies.. That is very helpful in a map with few towns that use your schools. (care to learn meteor shower from your pit lords? More certain than building a 4th level guild!) How about both lightning and ice bolt from druids- your starting town will most likely only have one of them!
And even with the library, think of all the spells a wizard can learn from genies!
I was not aware of that aspect. From the ability description [IIRC] it implies you'll learn spells you see your enemies cast.

As for Enlightenment I love seeing it at the end of a game esp. if I've got pretty much what I want. A few extra attribute points certainly never hurts before the big battle.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 10 Jun 2006, 22:22

Alamar wrote: I was not aware of that aspect. From the ability description [IIRC] it implies you'll learn spells you see your enemies cast.
Uninformative descriptions seem like something we must get used to in HoMM V. Of course that wouldn't be as annoying if they would just release the info for the fans. But they can't even do that. I'm balming Ivan again.
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