[Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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What do you think of Ashan ?

Great world ! Exactly the universe HoMM needed.
10
11%
A decent, but not very innovative, fantasy world.
31
34%
It's not Might and Magic anymore, it's Warhammer of Dungeons and Dragons.
8
9%
The old universe, with Ancients and Kreegans, was far batter.
20
22%
The old universe, with Ancients and Kreegans, was far batter.
20
22%
Who cares about the universe, anyway ?
2
2%
 
Total votes: 91

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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby seancdaug » Jun 17 2006, 18:06

I like Ashan, really. It's fairly well concieved, and Ubisoft has clearly put a lot of thought into the setting and backstory. As portrayed in the game, there's nothing wrong with it, and I've found it suitably immersive and well-realized.

That being said, one of the great things about the old Ancients/Kreegans universe has been lost in the new world: the mixture of science fiction and fantasy that was one of the defining characteristics of the Might and Magic series (for me, at least). Ashan can't help but feel like just another generic fantasy world, and that does not work in its favor. It's not a bad universe, it just doesn't stand out as unique or special in any significant way. It could have been much, much worse, but it should have been much better.

Personally, I don't see much point in Ubi's acquiring the rights to the franchise and then jettisoning so much of what the franchise actually was, but that's business for you, I guess.

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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby Akul » Jun 17 2006, 20:52

seancdaug wrote:I like Ashan, really. It's fairly well concieved, and Ubisoft has clearly put a lot of thought into the setting and backstory. As portrayed in the game, there's nothing wrong with it, and I've found it suitably immersive and well-realized.

That being said, one of the great things about the old Ancients/Kreegans universe has been lost in the new world: the mixture of science fiction and fantasy that was one of the defining characteristics of the Might and Magic series (for me, at least). Ashan can't help but feel like just another generic fantasy world, and that does not work in its favor. It's not a bad universe, it just doesn't stand out as unique or special in any significant way. It could have been much, much worse, but it should have been much better.

Personally, I don't see much point in Ubi's acquiring the rights to the franchise and then jettisoning so much of what the franchise actually was, but that's business for you, I guess.


Lore isn't that makes a franchise. Gameplay rules are that that makes a franchise.

About changing the lore:
They had 2 options: play all posible M&M games (yes, even M&M1), find notes that were made by 3D0/NWC story-writers (if there were any) and lose few years and their nerves. Or they can simply make a new universe.

And as I alredy told, we don't know all about the lore. All elements of timeline are connected with HoMM5 campaign or its scenarios with means that lore will evolve.
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Postby innokenti » Jun 17 2006, 21:09

I'm pretty sure that at least Nival would have been able to find enough people well-schooled in MM and HMM lore. Probably some of the developers themselves.

And like I said somewhere above - it's the revelation of the lore and the past of a universe that makes it all good, not simply it's existence and ability to read it in some sort of chronology.

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Postby vicheron » Jun 17 2006, 22:54

Sauron wrote:
innokenti wrote:It has just occured to me that one of the things that may have in fact ruined a lot of story (and that whole area) of H5 is the fact that they thought it through too much and basically tried to give it all to the fans, explain a lot of it outright.

What usually works best is starting off with minimal information of the past and allowing it to be subtly and slowly revealed throughout the narrative.

You reveal the world far far after it's built. The biggest advantage also is that, before too much is revealed, bits can be rebuilt and altered. Indeed.


I can't agree more. The fact that we know everything about the universe is a bit stupid.
However, I hope that they just told the facts that are connected with H5 campaign.

The backstory can be retconned. Warcraft did it in every game and its storyline is way better than Heroes 5's. There's also the fact that the history of Ashan isn't in the manual so people who haven't been following the development of Heroes 5 won't know what the hell is going on.

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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby seancdaug » Jun 18 2006, 18:36

Sauron wrote:Lore isn't that makes a franchise. Gameplay rules are that that makes a franchise.

I'm not sure I agree. As with most things, I think the real formula includes the both of 'em: there are plenty of game franchises out there that feature remarkable gameplay similarities and yet clearly are not part of the same series, and there are plenty of franchises that feature wildly different gameplay mechanics from installment to installment. The most notable example is right in front of our eyes, actually: the Heroes series is part of the broader Might and Magic franchise, and yet there are no Heroes games which play the same way as World of Xeen, which is in itself wildly different than Crusaders of Might and Magic. As a franchise, Might and Magic is defined in large part by its lore. This isn't true of all game franchises, but it is true of this one.

They had 2 options: play all posible M&M games (yes, even M&M1), find notes that were made by 3D0/NWC story-writers (if there were any) and lose few years and their nerves. Or they can simply make a new universe.

That's a utterly false dichotomy. Heroes of Might and Magic IV effectively jettisoned most of the major backstory of the previous games in the series, as did Might and Magic VI before it, while still remaining in broadly the same universe. If you're going to take on a series, you should have a reasonable familiarity with that series. You don't have to know it like the back of your hand, but if you don't know it well enough to broadly consistent, what's the point?

And as I alredy told, we don't know all about the lore. All elements of timeline are connected with HoMM5 campaign or its scenarios with means that lore will evolve.

But I wasn't complaining about the lore in and of itself. I was complaining about the fact that it's not really Might and Magic. If it didn't bear the franchise name, I wouldn't be complaining: I might not think as highly of it, but, as you say, it has plenty of room to grow. But as it is, it seems roughly equivalent to releasing a Star Trek film with no Starfleet, Klingons, or any other significant factors to tie it into established series continuity.

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Postby Alamar » Jun 18 2006, 18:59

Hopefully all that we "know" at this point is just the commonly accepted version of lore. It is still quite possible that the historians have chosen to ignore inconvenient facts or have simply lost information as time has passed.

I would be nice when a M&M game eventually comes out to see if during your adventures if anything of this nature is at least hinted at.

BTW: It is almost certainly too risky to introduce anything tech related at this point. Even if UBI has decided to embrace fantasy + tech there may be several iterations of the M&M series before we are even faced with the issue.

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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby DaemianLucifer » Jun 18 2006, 21:04

seancdaug wrote:But I wasn't complaining about the lore in and of itself. I was complaining about the fact that it's not really Might and Magic. If it didn't bear the franchise name, I wouldn't be complaining: I might not think as highly of it, but, as you say, it has plenty of room to grow. But as it is, it seems roughly equivalent to releasing a Star Trek film with no Starfleet, Klingons, or any other significant factors to tie it into established series continuity.


But its phasors,blue glowing ship engines,warp drive,photon torpedoes,force fields and teleporters that make a star trek movie,not some lame story and factions behind it :devious:

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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 18 2006, 21:08

DaemianLucifer wrote:But its phasors,blue glowing ship engines,warp drive,photon torpedoes,force fields and teleporters that make a star trek movie,not some lame story and factions behind it :devious:


You forgot the facial make-up for aliens. :devious:
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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby ClownRoyal » Jun 18 2006, 21:54

DaemianLucifer wrote:
seancdaug wrote:But I wasn't complaining about the lore in and of itself. I was complaining about the fact that it's not really Might and Magic. If it didn't bear the franchise name, I wouldn't be complaining: I might not think as highly of it, but, as you say, it has plenty of room to grow. But as it is, it seems roughly equivalent to releasing a Star Trek film with no Starfleet, Klingons, or any other significant factors to tie it into established series continuity.


But its phasors,blue glowing ship engines,warp drive,photon torpedoes,force fields and teleporters that make a star trek movie,not some lame story and factions behind it :devious:


Actually, you should talk to some hardcore Star Trek fans. I know a few people who would flip out if Starfleet, Klingons, etc etc were simply left out of Star Trek.

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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 18 2006, 21:57

ClownRoyal wrote:Actually, you should talk to some hardcore Star Trek fans. I know a few people who would flip out if Starfleet, Klingons, etc etc were simply left out of Star Trek.


Lets me introduce you to my good friend Sarcasm. I think you and he should get to know eachother.
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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby ClownRoyal » Jun 18 2006, 22:00

ThunderTitan wrote: Lets me introduce you to my good friend Sarcasm. I think you and he should get to know eachother.


Oh, sorry. Sarcasm isn't ususally conveyed well using only text.

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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 18 2006, 22:03

ClownRoyal wrote:Oh, sorry. Sarcasm isn't ususally conveyed well using only text.


That's what the :devious: smiley is for.


Anyway the story is Completly and Utterly Unremarkable, but as there's no such option I'll just continue to refrain from voting.
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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby ClownRoyal » Jun 18 2006, 22:05

ThunderTitan wrote:
ClownRoyal wrote:Oh, sorry. Sarcasm isn't ususally conveyed well using only text.


That's what the :devious: smiley is for.


Anyway the story is Completly and Utterly Unremarkable, but as there's no such option I'll just continue to refrain from voting.


Oh, I ignore forum smileys for the most part. After a while, they just lose all importance when they get used too much.

I agree though, the whole story is pretty lacking. I wouldn't even know the world was totally unrelated to Erathia if I didn't look at out-of-game sources.

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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby seancdaug » Jun 19 2006, 5:10

DaemianLucifer wrote:But its phasors,blue glowing ship engines,warp drive,photon torpedoes,force fields and teleporters that make a star trek movie,not some lame story and factions behind it :devious:

Well, yeah. But I was kind of tying that into "any other significant factors".... :D

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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby DaemianLucifer » Jun 19 2006, 9:02

ThunderTitan wrote: Anyway the story is Completly and Utterly Unremarkable, but as there's no such option I'll just continue to refrain from voting.


Really?Id call it quite remarkable and amazing.Quite amazing that it was found good by the developers,that is.Then again,they find that having no caravans is good as well.....

And very remarkable dialogs,dont you think? :devious:
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Re: [Universe] What do you think of Ashan ?

Postby Marzhin » Jun 19 2006, 9:19

ThunderTitan wrote:Anyway the story is Completly and Utterly Unremarkable, but as there's no such option I'll just continue to refrain from voting.


Really ? Fortunately the poll isn't about the story but the universe... :devious:

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 19 2006, 11:37

So it's about the billions upon billions of atoms that make up the universe and the physical laws governing them?!
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Postby Marzhin » Jun 19 2006, 12:45

ThunderTitan wrote:So it's about the billions upon billions of atoms that make up the universe and the physical laws governing them?!


No atoms in Ashan. Just microscopic dragons.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 19 2006, 14:32

Marzhin wrote:No atoms in Ashan. Just microscopic dragons.


Well that explains alot.

And if was was talking about the campaign story Utter Bollocks would be the way i'd describe it.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jun 19 2006, 14:41

ThunderTitan wrote: And if was was talking about the campaign story Utter Bollocks would be the way i'd describe it.


Something like Undying Three Shagging Bollocks fits it better.


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