Ultimate Abilities

[Infiltrator]

I'd be willing to go for Logistics and Learning as long as the War machines gets replaced with Destructive Magic, Sorcery or SOMETHING useful. Oh yea the Ultimate also requires Luck, but that's the only ability I would take regardless (logistics would be good depending on map).

[DaemianLucifer]

@Bandobras Took

Since sylvan has the fastest units in the game,the only counter I see is if he fights necro,because of the morale penalty.If he fights any other race,hell have no problem to charge the battlefield before his enemy can do a thing and slaughter him.And,since we have turn retal,with absolute luck his strikes are indeed devastating.

[Bandobras Took]

@Bandobras Took
And,since we have turn retal,with absolute luck his strikes are indeed devastating.

But that's the point. If he's gone for Absolute Luck, he won't have High Morale. And he won't have any kind of Mass Spell to make up for that lack.

So if we allow a deadly first turn, they're still faced with the basic problem of having no other buffs or ways to counter enemy debuffs. As soon as the morale kicks in, a Sylvan player will be on the receiving end of an awful lot of strikes.

I don't have too much more time (got to leave for work), but look at the Knight skills on Age of Heroes and see if you can't put together a non-Ultimate combo of skills that will have you acting at least three times as a much as a lucked-out Sylvan town.

[Lord Zeus]

Take a look at the Wizard ultimate on www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
apparently the spells will be cast at expert level. That just leaves the mass effect but the potency of the spells will be maximum. Great for destructive magic, since there is no mass effect on those.

[DaemianLucifer]

@Bandobras Took

Unles fighting necro,sylvan will have about the same morale as his opponent.And since casters and heroes are slower then the rest,sylvan will surely have the first kick.So hell devastate the army before they get bufed.So he will receive a lot of strikes,true.But those strikes will come from severly weakend army.

[Qurqirish Dragon]

I'd be willing to go for Logistics and Learning as long as the War machines gets replaced with Destructive Magic, Sorcery or SOMETHING useful. Oh yea the Ultimate also requires Luck, but that's the only ability I would take regardless (logistics would be good depending on map).

I disagree. I think War machines (particularly the ballista ability) is critical to a Dungeon hero, for one simple reason: elemental chains.

By controlling the ballista, the hero can either increase the chain on a target, or at least make certain the ballista doesn't break the chain on an opposite-element creature! Now, you might decide to forget the ballista altogether, but then you are reducing army damage potential.
Also, Last Aid means you will be able to use the first aid tent to increase chains as well! (let alone simply do damage).
War machines is not just about increasing the effectiveness of the devices- the CONTROL over them is wonderful for the dungeon!
Of course, increased range from the ammo cart and seige skill from the catapult doesn't hurt either, nor does the auto-replacement of destroyed war machines with their appropriate ability.

[ThunderTitan]

But that still limits you to either Sorcery or a magic skill. Then again Warlocks seem to have a problem with Knowledge, and that means limited mana, so they might not use spells as much.

[Bandobras Took]

@Bandobras Took
Unles fighting necro,sylvan will have about the same morale as his opponent.

How? It's certainly not going to be from Leadership; that's a nonessential skill on the Aboslute Luck Path.

While Sylvan troops have good speed and initiative, that won't prevent them from being outclassed by a well-trained Haven army.

Let's say that during the time the Sylvan Hero has been getting Absolute Luck, the Knight has maxed out his Leadership, Training, Attack, and Light Magic abilities. That seems about an equivalent number of skills.

Maxing out Leadership for a Knight gives maximum morale, an innate bonus to initiative, and an innate bonuse to creature speed on the BattleField. Maxing out attack causes Haven creatures to do bonus damage based on their morale state, and they're already going to be attacking more often than Sylvan armies.

This becomes brutal when you consider that a the Haven army can fairly easily upgrade its peasants to Marksmen -- unless the Sylvan army can block off the Marskmen in the first turn, they're going to get annihilated just trying to close. And closing itself is going to be a matter of luck and outthinking your opponent during the tactics phase.

I've got to go off break now; I'll continue a bit more later.

[Infiltrator]

I disagree. I think War machines (particularly the ballista ability) is critical to a Dungeon hero, for one simple reason: elemental chains.

By controlling the ballista, the hero can either increase the chain on a target, or at least make certain the ballista doesn't break the chain on an opposite-element creature! Now, you might decide to forget the ballista altogether, but then you are reducing army damage potential.
Also, Last Aid means you will be able to use the first aid tent to increase chains as well! (let alone simply do damage).
War machines is not just about increasing the effectiveness of the devices- the CONTROL over them is wonderful for the dungeon!
Of course, increased range from the ammo cart and seige skill from the catapult doesn't hurt either, nor does the auto-replacement of destroyed war machines with their appropriate ability.

Do you have a preview version? Because from the demo, my impressions are that chains can no longer be built, just blown. Anyway all that is nice and dandy, but ask yourself this - is it better then Destructive Magic? How about Sorcery? Or Defense? Or Offense? In my eyes, not by a long shot.

[DaemianLucifer]

@Bandobras Took

+3 is not a maximum morale.And it certainly wont give you the benefit to play first.I didnt play much of the demo,but I do remember that in some battles only my grifins played first,while most of the inferno troops played before me.Even though my morale was 7 and theirs 2.Also,moral just allows you to play sooner after you have played.And only a few of the knights troops can pary sylvans initiative.So sylvan will definitely play first.

And in order to upgrade peasants to archers you need loads of cash.Not just to upgrade them,but in order to gain them as well.Meanwhile,sylvan can focus on buying more and stronger troops.

[Orfinn]

Yeaah, seems luck and morale are up to 10 as in H4.

[Bandobras Took]

@Bandobras Took
And in order to upgrade peasants to archers you need loads of cash.Not just to upgrade them,but in order to gain them as well.Meanwhile,sylvan can focus on buying more and stronger troops.

But who's to say a wise haven player didn't skimp on unnecessary dwelling upgrades for just such a purpose as paying for the Training?

The "more" is flat-out incorrect; in every category a Haven has better or equal creature growth. And stronger is debatable, too; the only clear winner is Sprites over Peasants. On every other tier, the case can be made for either side.

But this is a case of specifics.

In general:

I will agree that Absolute Luck is powerful and gives a huge boost to the Sylvan town. What I will not agree with is that this automatically makes the Sylvan town untouchable. There are too many factors involved not only in combat but in skill choice and map management to say that of any skill.

[DaemianLucifer]

Of course its not untouchable.But,among players of equal skill,I think it allows silvan to win 8 out of 10 battles.

[BenchBreaker]

i think we should only commet on these things *after* the game is released

[DaemianLucifer]

Why?We basically know over 70% of the game by now.So we are allowed to make guesses based on that knowledge.

[Bandobras Took]

Why?We basically know over 70% of the game by now.So we are allowed to make guesses based on that knowledge.

But the guesses we have are necessarily flawed because we don't know what goes on in the other four towns as far as buildup and expansion, or how easy it is to get to the Ultimate Abilities.

What we really can't do is say that the other fellow is absolutely wrong in all respects.

Unless, of course, they're saying things that flatly contradict the demo.

[DaemianLucifer]

Dont forget the beta.We had beta as well as the demo,se we felt other towns as well.

[BenchBreaker]

yeah but a lot of thing will have since changed, one of the reasons for the delay is to polish up balance-wise, i really can't imagine the game being released with the senario you described being true

Of course its not untouchable.But,among players of equal skill,I think it allows silvan to win 8 out of 10 battles.

even 6/10 wins is a pretty big imbalance

[Ethric]

Very rarely (never?) do you have 2 people with equal skill. A town that has by some been deemed overpowered might be beaten by a player that has developed good strategies with another town. Often cries of imbalance is casued by lack of skill. And often there are imbalances of course, but am just saying that detecting them is no easy task.

That being said, luck does seem overpowered to me in H5

[Blue_Camel]

we shall see what we shall see