Unofficial balancing patch between upgrades v 0.35

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Are you happy with balance of upgrades in Heroes V?

YEAH
3
33%
Not at all.
6
67%
 
Total votes: 9

Lubomir
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Unofficial balancing patch between upgrades v 0.35

Postby Lubomir » Sep 9 2013, 11:13

Install? I am sure you can figure that out yourselves!
But just in case. Unpack the file using winrar. Copy it into HeroesV/data folder. Run the game with my patch.
Uninstall? Delete the files you just copied. Play the game as it was.

Version 0.2 http://rapidshare.com/share/91132B42382 ... 5BFB4E2D3A

Mediafire: http://www.mediafire.com/download/ch6h2 ... hanics.rar

Hello folks! Let me introduce myself, I am just a normal, occasional player of HoMM, lover to Heroes 3, but admirer of Heroes 5.

My favourites have always been Necropolis, with favourite creature vampires. Was very glad to see their come-back in Heroes V, but what annoyed me quite was amazingly imbalanced alternative upgrade of them. Very soon I realized Vampire lords are no longer usable... More I figure there are many many similar examples to be set - Arcane archers. Searched the forums and will do to find out which upgrades people find imbalanced and I set myself pleasing goal to balance them!

I know it's little late to come with this "project" today, as Heroes VI is already running, but so far I read loads of people stayed with Heroes V. Directly and shortly, I am very pleased to find how simple it is to edit creature's stats. Now I will edit them, with your help we can still enhance already great gaming experience, together I am sure we can make this game more enjoyable and all upgrades again playable!


I am looking forward what you think and I will be expecting your suggestions about which creature to edit and how exactly would you edit it. Think carefuly, you have 2 main options:

-1. to upgrade weaker upgrade
-2. to downgrade stronger upgrade
-3. to slightly upgrade weaker upgrade and downgrade stronger upgrade, not altering overall strengthness of town


What we should do is to follow option 1 with weaker towns and follow option 2 with stronger towns. Once we are satisfied I will also adjust exp gain and power value for creatures we modulated and finally upload the few text files which do the work for all of you to enjoy them.

-------------------------------------

Let me start :

1. I am suggesting at first to balance Vampire lords and Vampire princes, by upgrading Vampire lords. I want to increase their initiative from 11 to 13. Now, they still have less hp, but they are now effectively more attackive, underlining their non-retaliation ability. This way they will be picked at least vs undead, mechanical and elemental units.


2. I am suggesting downgrading arcane archers. I want to lower their HP from 14 to 10 and lower their damage from 8-9 to 4-9. Now they are much more vulnerable to spells, which make them especially easy targets while fighting enemy players. Also they can be exposed weakness spell making them weak enough not to be picked comparing to Master Hunters.

3. I am suggesting upgrading Rakshasa Raja. I want to increase its defence from 20 to 25. Now this upgrade is even more defensive balancing very good whirlwind.

4. I am suggesting upgrading Cerberus. I want to increase its initiative from 13 to 14 and its damage from 4 - 6 to 4 - 7. I personally feel fire breath of firehound is overpowered. Cerberus should still be attackive and dangerous unit, initiative of 14 helps it along with bigger damage. Now cerberus can be used vs fewer enemies whereas Firehound vs more enemies, stading one behind each other.
Last edited by Lubomir on May 7 2014, 8:42, edited 7 times in total.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Sep 11 2013, 4:26

I think the alternate upgrades need rebalancing.

However, I've always thought no retaliation was one of the best abilities in the game. I regularly choose Lords and Raja over the other upgrades.

I do think no range penalty units need adjusting. The crossbowmen and Arcane guys are always my choice unless I find that imbalanced artifact which removes range penalty. ;|

The unit with the highest priority for rebalancing I think is the Seducer. I just think the ability is bad design for a game like HoMM.

I'm not sure what would be a good method to balance units though.

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Postby Variol » Sep 11 2013, 10:14

Overall, I don't think it makes any difference. As long as every faction has the same number of units with the same number of upgrades, the game with get stale very fast.
It seems like Ubi just doesn't have the guts to give the Stronghold 3 unis for example; like just goblins, orcs and ogres. There would just be more of them.

I do find that the drawf units are embarrassingly weak though. I mean, their Dwarfs and they hit like halfings. I'm talking mostly about the level 1 units here. It's an excellent example of a unit being created, just because 7 different units were needed.

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Postby markkur » Sep 11 2013, 13:18

Well, I just voted I'm aok with the balance because for me the non-balance issue regarding some creatures is a serious wash-out when everything about this game is considered. I've seen many complaints about balance and iirc the complaints about "balance," always target the obvious OP units like Arcane Archers.

I see things a bit differently and I don't expect anyone else to agree; if there's one thing I've learned over the years about HoMM-games, the Fans seldom agree about anything.

The thing is; there are Balance issues across the entire world of H5. Not only is there the difference between creatures, there's also the balance of one creature's {attack vs defense} and many other areas of Balance-effects to consider.

Take the Shield-guards for instance, they are poor on the offense but are tough and incredibly hard to eradicate behind Fortress walls. If we toss in a Hero that specializes in the little guys, has anti-magic skills and then has defensive and anti-magic artifacts AND can cast "Runes" ; <imo> by being like granite in defending the Fortress, they more than make up for the lack of offensive clout. Compare the Dwarves to Peasants and the Peasants cannot be to defense like the Shield-Guards but instead, they are huge to Money-making. My Wife loves the Peasants because she will play Ellaine and bring in the $$$; with that Knight's "special" the taxpayers double the gold. Now on some Maps, this would be small potatoes but on very difficult and stingy maps?... this is a serious asset.

So that brings up another impact; the Map can have a dramatic affect on how any of my notions of balance will...balance-out. :D

I too think there is some balance-work that is needed but I think anything that's done needs to be altered only after a very extensive data-gathering to create a Balance-Overview-Strategic-System...call it a BOSS sheet. <L>

Because I think to really ensure tweaks to the existing game are good tweaks, I think it critical to see all balance aspects of the entire game-world. <IMO> Without this in-depth plan bringing all of the unique Hero and creature stats to the design table at a glance, I think changes would be more stabs. (at times) They did not get everything perfect but I imagine Nival had exactly some sort of design-tool just like I've described, to attempt impact-control.

That brings-up another aspect that also matters and that's the Developers-Intent. <imo> Nival made Luck, Morale and Initiatve all too game-breaking. Clearly they wanted to create a random world where anything can happen and they did DO that; but what happens sometimes is pretty :ill: and often very non-fun, If I'm on the "receiving-end" of 3 bad-luck-turns while my enemy has had three good-luck turns with his' creature's "Double-Attacks" vs my creature's "Half-Attacks." Also, considering the overall impact of Balance, due to his' Heroes skills and some artifacts, I'm moving & striking "once to his twice"; <imo> at that moment, the balance of one creature is a very small matter.

I think some tweaks are needed, but a master-plan needs to be used when considering everything in this game. <imo> A far more devastating Balance-issue; I'd rather see luck and Morale split-apart. Knights learn and train for Morale, Elves have a natural Luck and neither have both. When speaking of Balance, a Hero with -1 Morale and 0 Luck fighting a Hero that +3 Morale and +2 Luck, is a much greater problem.

Cheers

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Postby Variol » Sep 11 2013, 13:59

^^I agree, :)

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Sep 11 2013, 23:16

Yeah, something needs to be done about luck and morale before anything else.

I don't even understand how those bonuses can trigger so often when the probabilities suggests they shouldn't.

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Postby parcaleste » Sep 12 2013, 5:10

Yeah, most of the time +1 Luck/Morale for the AI triggers twice more often than yours +3 and up. :ill:

But some of those units (like the Arcanes) just needed to be nerfed a long time ago. Well, not like Deleb's specialty, but they are still ridiculously strong compared to the Master Hunters (even though I like the Master Hunters ability much more).

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Postby Lubomir » Sep 12 2013, 10:23

mr.hack - you are the only person I heard of picking vampire lords as well as not considering arcane archers an obvious overpowered unit. Anyway I read tons of people complaining about these two in particular, but there are many others considered OP.

markkur - what I am attempting to create is not an official patch, that would update every game in the world. I simply want to correct few scrathes on a masterpeace which Heroes V surely is. Some scrates that have been a long pain in the ass for many of us. Yes, data gathering tools and stuff... our experience, many of you have been playing the game for years and years, it's more testing than Nival could or would ever do or afford to do. Simply write about mistakes in upgrade balance you find annoying the most, I will gather feedbacks you all give me, try to adjust creature's stats and abilities into general satisfaction and will give you this little "patch" to download.

It's easy to install or uninstall it, so you may play with/without it any time you choose. Obviously, there is no reason for us not to take this task simply.

Anyway to avoid as you say "further stabs", we will not do any drastic changes, such as +100% damage. The impact of this patch should be rather silghter and directed towards most annoying balance issues.

In case of luck and morale.. there isn't much I want to and can do. It belongs into game mechanics and artefact power, not to creature balance, except for few abilities like aura of bravery or so.

-----

Well, I read so far the most disagreement with Arcane archers and vampire lords, are there any other obvious picks? Are there any other creatures that are picked by players in let's say 98% of times?

I have few more ideas:

5. I am suggesting altaring archlich. His alt. upgrade, lich master has to me overpowered rise dead spell, making it an obvious pick. Therefore I suggest upgrading archlig, increasing it's hp from 55 to 60 and givig it no-malee penalty :). Since lich is a large creature it gets almost every time blocked, now an archlich can do full dmg from close range, with better hp being more endurable. This should convince lots of players pick it in some cases.

6. I am suggesting upgrading skeleton archer. His alt. upgrade has to my opinion too many special abilities, shield allies over all of them. In player vs player match I think skeleton warrior may be a definite pick, therefore I suggest upgrading skeleton archers slightly - giving it "warden arrow" ability (like master hunter).

7. I would downgrade slightly Thunder thane. I have read tons of material about fortress being strongest town in the whole game, thanks to Thanes. They are my favourite too, I share these feelings, they really can with combination with rune of battle rage kill in single move like half opponent's army.. I do like the diversity with flame lords, but still i think thunder thans being OP, and I suggest downgrading them slightly, decreasing their initiative from 10 to 9. This makes them little bit less likely to go first in combat and therefore giving the foe time to reposition on the battlefield.


ANYBODY else, contine in my suggestions, or alter them if you think I'm wrong, don't be afraid to post you own stats alteration, we are making little fun patch, we can afford to make a mistake!

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Postby Mirez » Sep 12 2013, 10:58

people actually use skeleton warriors?
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby zaio-baio » Sep 12 2013, 13:10

H5 is pretty good for singleplayer, but as far as the MP goes some rebalancing will be a good idea.

Note that there is a difference between overpowered and broken. Overpowered means that the concept of an unit is fine, but its stats are simply too good. Broken ,on the other hand, is when something is very unlikely to happen, but if it happens its game-breaking.

Here is my list of broken and overpowered things in the game.

1. Arcane archers - not overpowered, but broken. Very high dmg, compensated by very low hp, defense and weekly growth. Their force arrow ability negates 50% of the total defense value of the unit. Now if they shoot vs an army of neutral conscripts their force arrow will be almost useless - -1 defense reduction for the shot. However, if they shoot vs magma dragons led by high lvl dwarf ( lets say the magmas have 80 def total) then the force arrow will reduce magmas defense by 40. Now if the arcanes play first and shoot with luck and favoured ( 15% chance) they will clear any stack, if they dont then they will be focused and killed in 1 hit. Note that on maps with multiple tier 3 dwellings those small elves can take a punch and still 1hit ko a stack, esp with ossir. Then they are both overpowered and broken :D.

2. Crystal dragons - not overpowered, just broken concept. When they play they can score between 30 dmg per dragon ( rolling min dmg, no luck no favoured and no crystal breath) and 60x5x3= 900 dmg per dragon( if they roll max dmg, luck + favoured, and the crystal breath hits 5 stacks). Huge gap filled with total randomness.

3. Wind dancers - only overpowered. Its their ability that increases their defense by 16 for free. They also have 6 staring defense - thats 22 def in total for lvl 2 unit. Note that the lvl 6 units have about 20-24 def.

4. High druigs - broken. 50% chance to play before the elven hero, and if they do then the sylvan hero can just imbue any high lvl destro spell and remove your army.

5. Rain of frenzy + swift mind - broken. Very low chance for the elf to get the lvl 4 frenzy spell, but if he does then you need the frenzy shield, or you lose.

6. Mentoring with hero lvl 26-27+ - ridiculous. You can spoil a good game getting + 1k goblins for free, 400 dancers, or just mentor all you secondary heroes and start hit and running.

7. Goblin knight - bug. Should be banned.

8. Whyngaal - broken on any map, both broken and overpowered on large maps.

Ofc there are more things, but those are the most annoying.

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Postby markkur » Sep 12 2013, 14:58

Sorry Lubomir,

I was not desiring to sound negative and probably did anyway; it's just I believe that you should have some sort of guide. Arcane archers are OP but how much? That's the problem for me anyway, is how to rationalize change? You know what I mean, what's reasonable or effective and how do you ensure the quality of the change? I've not the answer.

Yeah, unfortunately, what really needs changing is out of our reach.

To your specifics; my thoughts

Sylvan:

I agree with zaio-baio's review of the Elves. :D and...The Arcane archers do too much damage and if Ossir has them? it's even more ridiculous, on two counts, his special and his +1 luck to start.

Dungeon:

Seems to me that blood furies and the lizards both have zero defense and both are targeted by the A.I. in SP. <imo> it's hard to keep either for too long a time. I will not even use the Furies until they are upgraded and can attack without being destroyed.

The Scouts offense seems very weak, and until they have poison they're pretty lame. Since the poison does decent damage, I'm not sure if they should be touched.

Stronghold:

The only unit that stands out to me is the Orcs; because when they are hit they seem to die very easily compared to the other units. Maybe a closer balance of Att. and Def.?

Academy:

Golems usually seem a non-factor in my battles. However with the artificer I can make them strike further. So, I don't know if a tweak is really necessary.

With the silly notion that Nival implemented that a Wizard will kill his own troops by using his "base attack"...the "Gremlin Saboteur" seems a wasted upgrade?

Haven:

The Champions charge is good but to be able to kill two-stacks? Way over the top to me.

The Griffins seem to me, a little too strong in attack while too weak at defense. This unit's balance plays imbalanced. I bypass them for priests in early SP games or I will have only a few left for mid-game.

Fortress:

<imo> Runes change too much to touch these guys. Triple creature attacks, double strikes, invisibility, resurrection etc. makes tweaking them iffy at best.

Inferno:

Of all the factions, I have the most trouble with this one. <imo> Defense seems a big problem with all of the core units. Note; Def-ups is hard for the Demon-Lord to get). I don't care to creep w/o all of them upgraded. The imps, hellhounds and the changers all die too easily, Otoh, the Fire-Stallions doing damage to all stacks they touch at each creatures turn seems way too much.

Necropolis:

Raising armies compensates for a lot. My biggest gripe with this faction is that all Necromancers do not start with Summoning and Raise-Dead. To me it's just like telling a Knight; "Walk... you've no Horse."

Ok, shared my "impressions". Sorry again about the negativity, I was truly "attempting" to make a positive contribution. I was Quality Assurance in RL for a long time, so old habits are hard to break<vbg>

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Postby Lubomir » Sep 12 2013, 19:11

Hello folks! Glad this thread is being more read and discuss! Please come and join, this is not much work we are about to do, but it can make some playing difference.

Once again guys I feel the need to explain what we are doing and why. I feel this is mistaken a bit. We are not altering game mechanics, we are not going to rebalance whole game!! we will only adjust few creatures, not drastically, except with arcane archers and vampires, we will alter few creatures - where their other upgrade isn't balanced.

Say - Heroes V has unique system of 2 upgrades for each creature and it's natural with these tons of data there are some unbalancing issues. Again, like arcane archers - they are so vastly more useful than Master Hunters, that 99.9% players have been choosing them. I has been annoying me and I am not alone. Therefore I am making a patch that should make all upgrades pickable (funny word isn't it).

Once again people, I am not balancing whole game and towns :) I feel it's beuaituful some towns having advantage over others, some lvl being much better in that town to this town.

Ok, I am making the list of changes, you have not found them inappropriate yet, I will continue now using the feedback you have given me.

8. I would downgrade a bit crystal dragons, by lowering their initiative from 14 to 13 and their attack from 30 to 28. It will make then less likely to strike foe's army at the beginning of combat. I too felt they are being picked more very often comparing to Emeralds.

9. I would downgrade wind dancer by lowering their initiative from 15 to 14.

10. I would downgrade Dryad. Symbiosis is too much useful for players and Dryad is now a clear pick, I want both of them to have its use. I would lower Dryad's hp from 6 to 5 (like Pixie has) and its speed from 7 to 6.

11. I would downgrade High Druid, by lowering their initiative from 10 to 9 and their defence from 8 to 7 (kind of cosmetic change). This makes them act later with channelling less attractive. Now Druid elders should appear more often in your choice.

That's all I have had in mind for Sylvan, mind that I was always downgrading the more favourable upgrade. It's because I believe Sylvan to be in top 3 strongest towns in the game (also what I read on forums).

12. Champions. yes I heard about this issue earlier, people complaining that Paladins are not chosen. I would lower Champion's initiative from 12 to 11 and its hp from 100 to 95. Maybe even initiative should do it.

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Postby parcaleste » Sep 12 2013, 19:41

Lubomir wrote:... 12. Champions. yes I heard about this issue earlier, people complaining that Paladins are not chosen. I would lower Champion's initiative from 12 to 11 and its hp from 100 to 95. Maybe even initiative should do it.

I would have lower their Speed rather, making them "slower" than the Paladins.

Dungeon's Lizards needs to be "pushed" a bit as well, usually I "jump" over them while building my town. Furies are awesome like they are now, I don't think they need to be touched, but perhaps the Matriarchs do need some push? Esp. the Mistresses I found quite useless...

And look at the Minotaur Guard and Minotaur Captain's statistics - it's insane!

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Postby zaio-baio » Sep 12 2013, 20:06

Lubomir wrote:
8. I would downgrade a bit crystal dragons, by lowering their initiative from 14 to 13 and their attack from 30 to 28. It will make then less likely to strike foe's army at the beginning of combat. I too felt they are being picked more very often comparing to Emeralds.

9. I would downgrade wind dancer by lowering their initiative from 15 to 14.

10. I would downgrade Dryad. Symbiosis is too much useful for players and Dryad is now a clear pick, I want both of them to have its use. I would lower Dryad's hp from 6 to 5 (like Pixie has) and its speed from 7 to 6.

11. I would downgrade High Druid, by lowering their initiative from 10 to 9 and their defence from 8 to 7 (kind of cosmetic change). This makes them act later with channelling less attractive. Now Druid elders should appear more often in your choice.

That's all I have had in mind for Sylvan, mind that I was always downgrading the more favourable upgrade. It's because I believe Sylvan to be in top 3 strongest towns in the game (also what I read on forums).

12. Champions. yes I heard about this issue earlier, people complaining that Paladins are not chosen. I would lower Champion's initiative from 12 to 11 and its hp from 100 to 95. Maybe even initiative should do it.



8.Wouldnt it be better to rebalance them ? boost their hp and defence and nerf the crystal breath - for instance 3 targets max.

9.Why not nerf agility? instead of +2 def per moved tile - +1. You can also boost their starting defence a bit for compensation.

10. With 6 speed they will never be picked. Imo Symbiosis is only imba if the map has multiple tier 1 dwellings and no high lvl dwellings.

11. -1 ini should be enough. Then we can do some testing and see if its ok.

12. Ive played hundreds of multi-player games with haven and i almost never used champions. Too risky vs strong opponents as swift mind + frenzy/puppet may turn them against you. Also that champion charge is great to kill your own crossbows. Vs elves and orcs palas are still better due to +4 def.

About the arcane archers - how about boosting their initiative by 1, hp by 2 and nerf force arrow to 20-30%?

About the vampire lords/princes - the lords are mainly picked because 4-5 lords have pretty good chance to torpor 100 paladins. Imo it will be best if you decrease the proc factor of their torpor ability from 3->2. Then we can do some testings and decide if the princes should be boosted or not.

About the rakshasa rajas - they are inferior mainly because the other cats have hydra attack that scales extreamly well with lategame miniartifacts. Imo why not nerf that whirlwind attack from 100% dmg to all targets to 100% dmg to the primary target and 75% dmg to the others?

Thunder thanes are fine, its almost impossible to score 2x attack and multi hit vs good players. Also storm wind is often picked so their potential is nothing special. They shine mainly vs academy, but there in nothing wrong with that, those wizards have way better creeping.

Training, artificer and dwarves are too much map dependent. Useless on some, overpowered on others. Dunno what can be done about them.
Anyways it will be a great start to cap those + ini artifacts at 30% instead of 50%.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Sep 13 2013, 4:15

I guess I'm the only one here who thinks Seducers are the superior succubus'.

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Postby Lubomir » Sep 13 2013, 8:55

Hello guys!

Based on feedback I was given, let me edit my list of changes now.

12. Champions now stay the same, obviously immune to frenzy is after all convincing to pick Paladins.

8. I would prefer to keep things simple and identical. Nival set the value of targets to 5 and now players are used to it. I want to keep the identity of Nival I feel altering the core values of abilities would undo Nival's work. Mind, that mostly all the changes I am suggesting aren't altering Nival's changes. Example: Arcane Arches has it's ini increased by Nival to 11 from 10. It's tempting to decrease it to 10 or even 9.. but I felt if would undo Nival work and decision. Some manager there decided Arcane should have increased ini comparing to Masters and I will keep it that way, but I will alter other stats like hp (are the same as master Hunter's). It's not a rule, obviously, but it's my feelings of the way I want to go, if I have a choice. And we have a choice.

10. Ok Dryads will not be changed :)

7. Thunder thans will not be changed.

3. After consideartion I will not add Rakshasa Raja 5 to its defense - but only 2, increasing it from 20 to 22 and at the same time further decrease Rakshasa's Ksatra's hp frm 135 to 130.

1. Vampire lords - I admit my professionaly in this matter is dubious, as Necropolis is my favourite and I follow the way of upgrading weaker upgrade rather than downgrading stronger upgrade. Objectivelly however, I read lots of posts saying Necropolis is quite weak town in ToE, people are laughing on its creature strength, I say it's nice to make Vampire Lords better and add a bit to that town. I stick with opinion of increasing initiative from 11 to 13. This a lot. But look at vampire princes - better speed, better hp, and that overpowered torpor.. (or broken?) initiative 13 and no-retaliation is very nice counter move. Even I done some testing already and :baby: heh, it's great. Now it's hard to choose lords or princes.

5. People I need a bit help with Archliches. DO you agree that lich masters are now a clear pick due to rise dead spell? Lich is a large creature and gets often blocked. But casting rise spell is still possible. I want to upgrade archliches to have as well an advantage if blocked but to mantain lich's identity. I was actually thinking of giving them "maneuver" ability (like centaur). It would make them dangerous, along with the cloud ability, but... I don't sense lich as an agile creature, maneuver would broke its identity. So hp increase and no-malee penalty seem nice compromises. But still, should a lich have no-malee penality? What do you think? Perhabs absolute perfect solution would be making archilch the small creature :) It would be rather drastic change.

6. Do you think skeleton archers are picked in multiplayer?

--------------

At last I have some more changes in mind.

13. I feel Zaelots are being picked over Inquisitors, I suggest downgrading Zaelots by decreasing their hp slightly from 80 to 75.

14. Minotaur Guard is now in the shade of Minotaur Taskmaster - much better defence, damange and initiative.. it's enough for people to pick it almost always. I suggest minor speed increase from 5 to 6 for Minotaur Guard. Now it's more deadly, combined with double attack.

15. Yeah, Shadow Mistress needs a bit of upgrade there, shooters still rule - but it already has hp, initiative, speed and damage increased by Nival, comparing to Shadow Matriarch. I want to keep their decision, but I would add into att and def stats - from 20 to 21 both. Plus poisonus ability.

16. Inferno is everywhere makred as the weakest town in the game. At last, almost everyone agrees it has the poorest start. Also I find it shameful that not even ONE creature has immune to fire! Comeon! These are demons from the hottest hell, howcome non of them is immune? Let me suggest these changes: Giving Horned oveseer immune to fire. I feel leap makes horned Grunt clear pick.

17. Giving succubus mistress immune to fire. Succubus seducer is too strong in multiplayer, but mistress's chain shot makes it a pick for creeping (to me). Still slight upgrade by immune to fire.

18. Giving pit lord immune to fire and giving it armageddon spell and basic mastery. :devil: This is a special thing. Pit spanws have blade of slaughter, which is very very strong and I have seen everybody picking spawns. I want the comeback for pit lords. I even thought of editing mastery levels - it has basic meteor shower and basic fireball.

19. Finally I suggest downgrading battlerager a bit. Very slightly - I feel Berserker isn't picked that often - lowering its att and def stats from 7/7 to 6/6.


I know little enough about stronghold. Are there any upgrades that are chosen in like 95% of times?

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Postby parcaleste » Sep 13 2013, 10:35

Lubomir wrote:12. Champions

Still I say they have too much speed with their special ability. Wouldn't it be a smarter move if the speed between them and Paladins be switched or equalized? This will make Paladins more useful with the healing.

BDW their Champion Charge does not work in that (un)official AI Patch!

Lubomir wrote:8. Arcane Arches

If Nival had made a change - it doesn't mean it is a good change. I think decreasing their Initiative with 1 is the less that's needed to be done.

Lubomir wrote:10. Ok Dryads will not be changed :)

I think -1 speed will be OK - you can use the Sprites early game for creeping and then repackage them in late game into Dryads... if you have the extra money (usually you do, but still).

Lubomir wrote:7. Thanes and Flame Lords...

It would have be nice if the Flamewave attack can be made to hit a bit more often... or reduce their DMG by 50% and hit every time, just like The Thunder Thanes Storm Bolt hits every time.

Lubomir wrote:3. Rakshasas...

What about switching their DMG? I see no sense the all around attack to do more DMG than the attack on one target.

Lubomir wrote:1. Vampires...

Reducing Princesses Damage could also help. Or perhaps equalizing both types overall DMG (5-13)?

Lubomir wrote:5. Archliches...

+1 more initiative? Adding them basic Puppet Master... or (finally some use for this sucker) Curse of the Netherworld (instead Weakness and Suffering... or make Suffering Mass)?

Lubomir wrote:6. Do you think skeleton archers are picked in multiplayer?

What about giving them a No Range Penalty and decreasing their initiative with 1?

Lubomir wrote:13. I suggest downgrading Zaelots by decreasing their hp slightly from 80 to 75.

Or as well give Inquisitors mana for one more spell? I mean, with this Zealots Exorcism, the choice is just a no brainer.

Lubomir wrote:14. Minotaur Guard speed increase from 5 to 6.

2 more Defense will come in handy as well - the gap in the stats between those two is just humongous.

Lubomir wrote:15. Shadow Mistress poisonus ability...

HELL NO! Better add them +1 more initiative (and +1 more DMG).

Lubomir wrote:17. Giving succubus mistress immune to fire.

Perhaps better idea will be to increase their damage to like 9-14.

Lubomir wrote:18. Giving pit lord immune to fire and giving it armageddon spell and basic mastery...

This will be overkill! Better give them mana for one more spell.

And what about Arch Devils and Arch Demons? I find them both pathetic. Can their attack be made to hit the two squares before them? Not "vertical" like the Dragon's attack, but horizontal.

Lubomir
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Location: Trencin

Postby Lubomir » Sep 14 2013, 10:17

Ok, 24 hours no more posts. I have made some changes due to parcaleste's feedback and I think it's time to release first (or second) version of my patch and start testing. Also mind that I acknowledged your suggestions, but if they were in direct conflict with mine, I had to choose one option and there is no saying which one is "right" or "wrong", which one balances the upgrades better or worse, it's rateher about my feelings, instinct or decision what I want the game to be (like mantain Nival's identity and decisions). So do not be dissappointed of me not listening to your suggestions, I had to make decision.

:) ok, we are releasing version 0.2. Lists of changes below. Now, gentlemen let me invite you for testing in multiplayer game, there is no better testing than against humans. Are there three of you willing to join me? We can play in 4 player multiplayer map, with no teams to make some fun. One rule though - we should all select different towns and we should prefer these affected by my patch the most (Necropolis, Dungenon, Sylvan, Inferno).

    Changes in version 0.2:

    Academy
      Rakshasa Raja
      Defence 22 instead of 20
      Power/exp 2551/160 instead of 2535/160
      Rakshasa Kshatra
      HP 130 instead of 135
      Power/exp 2565/160 instead of 2581/161

    Dungenon
      Minotaur Guard
      Speed 6 instead of 5
      Power/exp 483/39 instead of 474/38
      Shadow Mistress
      Attack 22 instead of 20
      Defense 22 instead of 20
      Power/exp 2637/156 instead of 2622/156
      Shadow Matriarch
      Power/exp 2597/156 instead of 2537/155

    Heaven
      Zealot
      Hp 74 instead of 80
      Mana 14 instead of 15
      Power/exp 1496/100 instead of 1523/100

    Inferno
      Horned Overseer
      Given immunity to fire
      Power/exp 160/16 instead of 150/16
      Cerberus
      Initiative 14 instead of 13
      Damage 5-6 instead of 4-6
      Power/exp 387/34 instead of 370/33
      Firehound
      Power/exp 366/33 instead of 338/30
      Succubus Misstress
      Given immunity to fire
      Power/exp 711/56 instead of 694/55
      Succubus Seducer
      Power/exp 700/56 instead of 680/54
      Pit Lord
      Given immunity to fire
      Given an Armageddon spell at basic mastery :)
      Power/exp 2454/157 instead of 2360/150

    Necropolis
      Akeleton Archer
      Given warding arrow
      Power/exp 86/10 instead of 84/10
      Vampire Lord
      Initiative 13 instead of 11
      Power/exp 759/62 instead of 739/60
      Archlich
      Given no-malee penalty
      Hp 60 instead of 55
      Power/exp 1553/101 instead of 1539/100

    Sylvan
      Wind Dancer
      Initiative 14 instead of 15
      Power/exp 297/28 instead of 308/28
      War Dancer
      Power/exp 300/28 instead of 311/29
      Arcane Archer
      Damage 4-9 instead of 8-9
      Hp 10 instead of 14
      Shots 8 instead of 16
      Power/exp 430/37 instead of 447/39
      High Druid
      Initiative 9 instead of 10
      Power/exp 853/62 instead of 862/64
      Crystal Dragon
      Inititative 13 instead of 14
      Attack 28 instead of 30
      Power/exp 5879/300 instead of 5905/301
      Emerald Dragon
      Power/exp 5902/300 instead of 6028/300

    Fortress
      Battlerager
      Attack 6 instead of 7
      Defence 6 instead of 7
      Power/exp 430/41 instead of 434/41


How to install? Download the files, unpack them using winrar. Copy them into Heroes V/data folder :).
How to uninstall? Delete the files you copied and puff - original stats are back.

http://rapidshare.com/share/91132B42382 ... 5BFB4E2D3A
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ch6h2 ... hanics.rar
Last edited by Lubomir on Sep 15 2013, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.

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markkur
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Postby markkur » Sep 14 2013, 13:45

I use the Mistress', the chain-shot enhanced by the DL's attack is very formidable and since they are the factions only shooters, this sort of makes-up for the missing second-shooter.

iirc The seducers can cast once? Then having only the 1st-aid tent unable to remove the spell makes it too easy to cleanse. i.e. Haven can get rid of it two ways, if the Hero has cleanse and then either, Paladins or Zealots.

For me, I stay away from stuff that's too situational; I prefer the guaranteed damages.

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markkur
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Postby markkur » Sep 14 2013, 15:14

@ Lubomir

Since I'm more the adventurer, I was talking with what I call a Battle-Master, and he shared this thought;

"As a starting point, might be a good idea would be to see what albolabris & Elvin did on their respective "modded" duel/arena maps, they've thought through a lot already."

Here's one link, should you want to investigate further. As I said, I'm not a duel-type of player but since this map and it's changes were well accepted by the community, it should be a very good resource for your efforts and should represent to some degree the opinions of a lot of serious players.

Elvin's map
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=34559


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