old heroes feel, when is it coming back?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Arzang
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old heroes feel, when is it coming back?

Postby Arzang » Dec 15 2012, 12:47

Just want to start by saying that I liked h2-h4, h5 was meh and h6 was too glitchy to play at all.

i noticed black hole sunk into a black hole recently, and ubi has announced an expansion for h6.

basically;

what happened to NWC devs and are they ever going to return to the heroes franchise? the games don't suck, but the two recent games felt like they were developed by a bunch of people who didn't really care.

if anyone feels that my rant sucks or for any reason wants to flame, go ahead.

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Postby jeff » Dec 15 2012, 14:42

I believe the older (not necessarily speaking of age) fans miss the feel of the older editions of Heroes (I-IV), while the newer fans are more accepting of H-5 and 6. Any gaming company is going to find it hard to please all factions, and UBI has yet to strike the balance that will unite the community and it remains to be seen whether they or anybody will. As far as where the NWC devs are is anybody’s guess. Last I heard Christian from the old 3DO forum stayed in LA when 3DO decided to move just before it shut down.
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Postby Kalah » Dec 15 2012, 14:43

The old devs have moved on - even JVC who started it all has started on other things. This interview (also read this one) tells us about how his life is now.

Btw. remember who designed Heroes 4. Do you think "the old devs" never wanted to develop the games? It's not given that you would have liked their design decisions any more than you like Nival's or Black Hole's.

What we're hoping for is that the developers who are making the current games are fans of the Might & Magic world. We're in luck there. Marzhin (Julien Pirou) is just one of several fanboys who really like the old games and want to combine new technology with the old "feel". That said, they don't always succed (look at H6) ... but at least they're trying. So I'm hopeful.
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Postby Neidhaart » Dec 15 2012, 21:17

Thats my hope, a modern heroes game with the "old school" feel.
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Postby Jorgold » Dec 17 2012, 18:00

Anything, as long as the next installment sheds that garish comic look. I find that extremely takes away from the mood, even though I liked the game mechanics of VI and V.

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Postby Dalai » Dec 18 2012, 10:01

jeff wrote:I believe the older (not necessarily speaking of age) fans miss the feel of the older editions of Heroes (I-IV), while the newer fans are more accepting of H-5 and 6. Any gaming company is going to find it hard to please all factions, and UBI has yet to strike the balance that will unite the community and it remains to be seen whether they or anybody will.

Why on Earth should they strike any balance? Do they face any competition? Do new players demand something different from what they are served? What is the force that could possibly make Ubi change something? I don't see that force. They will go on with "modern" graphics and random AI, shipping beta to customers and working on patches long after the game is shipped.

It's a cheap imitation of the game, but while no one complains and many people continue to buy new installments, it will not change. To keep selling "sub-par" (and I'm being extremely polite here) product Ubi needs to make it cheap, which makes it even more "sub-par". It's a downward spiral, with game designers having no idea about the game they design, developers from 3-rd world, etc. It's no longer a AAA-title, and it will probably never be one again.

Old heroes feel is not coming back.
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Postby jeff » Dec 18 2012, 21:34

Dalai wrote: Why on Earth should they strike any balance?


Profit, granted they are making money with the current business model, but fan dissatisfaction will eventually bring it to an end. You can only milk the cow so long before it dries up. :nervous:

Dalai wrote:Do they face any competition? Do new players demand something different from what they are served?


Here I don't know; the newer crowd seems enamored with the new graphics, and have little idea on the fact the game dies quickly after release because there is no user friendly editor or robust RMG to keep the fan base supplied with good maps to maintain their interest. As the one UBI official said if there are enough onetime buyers he implied they were ok with that. :disagree:

Dalai wrote:What is the force that could possibly make Ubi change something?


I don't know here either as they did not listen to our complaints from H-V.

Dalai wrote:They will go on with "modern" graphics and random AI, shipping beta to customers and working on patches long after the game is shipped. It's a cheap imitation of the game, but while no one complains and many people continue to buy new installments, it will not change. To keep selling "sub-par" (and I'm being extremely polite here) product Ubi needs to make it cheap, which makes it even more "sub-par". It's a downward spiral, with game designers having no idea about the game they design, developers from 3-rd world, etc.


I agree with most of your comments; hopefully the loud complaints will be heard.

Dalai wrote:It's no longer a AAA-title, and it will probably never be one again. Old heroes feel is not coming back.


Here I hope you’re wrong.
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Postby markkur » Dec 19 2012, 4:04

For me the biggest issue between the new and old is not so much the feel but more; how the community is viewed. I enjoy 5 but it's no secret the editor was "tossed in at last minute" and with 6 things got even worse.

<imo>When JVC envisioned HoMM it was a very broad view and included all fans; including Adventurers, Warriors, Mapmakers and Campaigners; the old "something (well-done)for everyone". It's not so now. From my pov they catered to the on-line battle fans more than anyone and from what I've read, even that group was not happy.
Last edited by markkur on Dec 22 2012, 1:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Dalai » Dec 19 2012, 23:00

jeff wrote:Profit, granted they are making money with the current business model, but fan dissatisfaction will eventually bring it to an end. You can only milk the cow so long before it dries up. :nervous:

The cow did not die, it mutated and adapted. Players base is so much bigger now that you don't really need to build a long-lasting relationship with your customer based on trust and quality. Today's model is "there are always enough new easy-to-fool consumers".

As the one UBI official said if there are enough onetime buyers he implied they were ok with that. :disagree:

Exactly.

I don't know here either as they did not listen to our complaints from H-V.

And they never will. Ignoring common sense does not lead to financial ruin - why bother?

Here I hope you’re wrong.

I hope too ;|
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Postby MattII » Dec 20 2012, 10:02

One of the latest comments on their facebook page is that the old universe is dead and gone, thus you'll never get it back.

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Postby Avonu » Dec 20 2012, 14:12

MattII wrote:One of the latest comments on their facebook page is that the old universe is dead and gone, thus you'll never get it back.

Never say never.
You can see by HVI and its DLCs, that Ubisoft learnt some lessons, the questions is, is it enough to improve next games or they still will screw them up too?

As we can see by H6's easy and friendly map editor, powerful Random Map Generator, modding support, simultanously turns, detailed paper manual, various builds for heroes, their skills and armies, absent of any retcons in games stories, many posts from dev teams on official forum and talking directly to fans, not through VIP members lips, Ubisoft knows what they are doing, to be as close to community, as they should be. :P


Dalai wrote:It's no longer a AAA-title, and it will probably never be one again.

Correct me if I am wrong, but HoMM games never were on the top of games league (like Warcraft or Assassin's Creed for example). Yes, they had huge fanbase and sold pretty well back in NWC days but they still weren't AAA titles... at least not worldwide.

Kalah wrote:Btw. remember who designed Heroes 4. Do you think "the old devs" never wanted to develop the games? It's not given that you would have liked their design decisions any more than you like Nival's or Black Hole's.

Remember the situation back in H4 and MM9 production cycle - "Faster, faster, cheaper, cheaper!". It's not that desing was bad, it's how it was development and put in game. Many aspects of H4 are very good alone, but when put in game together, they are not so good anymore.
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Postby Dalai » Dec 20 2012, 15:51

Avonu wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but HoMM games never were on the top of games league (like Warcraft or Assassin's Creed for example). Yes, they had huge fanbase and sold pretty well back in NWC days but they still weren't AAA titles... at least not worldwide.

I don't know how official this AAA-thing is, but H2 and H3, at least, along with JVC, were included in different pantheons and halls of fame, etc. But if you insist, I'm ready to reduce my statement from factual to emotional.
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Postby Tress » Dec 20 2012, 21:06

It's a cheap imitation of the game, but while no one complains and many people continue to buy new installments, it will not change. To keep selling "sub-par" (and I'm being extremely polite here) product Ubi needs to make it cheap, which makes it even more "sub-par". It's a downward spiral, with game designers having no idea about the game they design, developers from 3-rd world, etc. It's no longer a AAA-title, and it will probably never be one again.


It's not like homm2/3 was AAA title. It was just game with extremely good game play. It was not like there was huge budget invested in game. Comparing homm3 and 6 I believe that homm6 have bigger budget(even if we adjust by time), but there is simply no way you can re release homm 3 in today's market. Besides homm is one of games that is timeless, naturally any next game must differ. Homm 4 took some bold steps, but most were imo too damaging to game(fog of war, town development, etc). If we want homm3 gameplay we can still play it.

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Postby MattII » Dec 22 2012, 2:01

Avonu wrote:Never say never.
You can see by HVI and its DLCs, that Ubisoft learnt some lessons, the questions is, is it enough to improve next games or they still will screw them up too?

As we can see by H6's easy and friendly map editor, powerful Random Map Generator, modding support, simultanously turns, detailed paper manual, various builds for heroes, their skills and armies, absent of any retcons in games stories, many posts from dev teams on official forum and talking directly to fans, not through VIP members lips, Ubisoft knows what they are doing, to be as close to community, as they should be. :P
Ashan still has a stupid, simplistic clichéd back-story based on dragons, and now they add even more dragon-related stuff.

Until the move on to a new world, and this time not one with Dragon Gods then things aren't going to work as well as the old games.

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Postby Dalai » Dec 22 2012, 19:55

MattII wrote:Ashan still has a stupid, simplistic clichéd back-story based on dragons, and now they add even more dragon-related stuff.

Until the move on to a new world, and this time not one with Dragon Gods then things aren't going to work as well as the old games.

Won't happen.

If they abandon Ashan, it means that a lot of mistakes were made, a lot of money wasted, and someone must be punished.
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Postby Kalah » Dec 22 2012, 21:38

Well, they could of course do that eventually (after all, they have a tendency to dump the companies that make the games), but seeing as the Ashan universe is now developing quite well and growing at a rapid rate, I don't see it happening anythime soon.
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