Nicolai's fate *spoilers*

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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vicheron
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Postby vicheron » Apr 20 2006, 1:43

I don't know about the similarities between Heroes 3 and Heroes 5. There was a lot more stuff going around in the Heroes 3 storyline. It spans more than 15 years starting from Might and Magic 6 when the Kreegans first arrived and captured Roland all the way up to Armageddon's Blade when the Kreegans are defeated.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 20 2006, 12:27

Yes, but the essential point remains: If you have to pull Catherine from RoE for one similarity, Sandro from SoD for another, and the Kreegan from AB for another, you've not got much of a specific similarity. You're pulling things out of a grab-bag.
Notice how at the start I said the H3 story?! Not the H3 RoE story? The H4 stories didn't have an overall plot to them, H3 did, even if in the expansion they were other stories.
And I am including the Roland Map. Two and half maps out 20 doesn't really qualify them as a focus of the campaign.
And what makes you think the demons are gonna be the focus of the entire story in H5?
I know, but she's not a playable character, and so can't fit the Isabel slot. :)
And that counts toward the story how? She can't fill the Isabel/Catherine slot because she's not a queen trying to save her husbands/fathers kingdom, not because she's an NPC.

But they do interact. The Order and Death campaigns of H4 specifically make reference to each other.
Their conected by the same world, not the same storyline.
1) The King must be killed, and this must spark an invasion . . .

. . . however, it seems that the King in H5 gets killed halfway through, when the invasion is already in full swing.

2) The Queen must rally her troops against the threat . . .

. . . this happens, but it's principally a generic thing; Godric and Beatrice are also trying to rally troops.

3) The King must be raised as an undead to lead the same faction that killed him . . .

. . . and nothing less will suffice. If an entirely different faction raises the King, that's enough of a difference in the storyline.

4) The Queen must receive help from a splinter group within the faction that started the war . . .

. . . up in the air. In depends upon what Agrael/Raelag decides to do with himself through the campaigns, I think.

5) The Queen must lead her forces to victory against the bad guys.

. . . also up in the air. What I've seen in the campaign leads me to think that at least a part of the human faction will become the bad guys.

No they don't. They don't need to be so exact. If I repaint a stolen car it doesn't make it mine. The devil isn't in the details on this one.


And there's a difference between being forgiving with the story and not seeing the corespondance.

@vicheron
Actualy that would be the M&M overall storyline in whatever the world where Enroth and Erathia were, not the H3 story.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 28 2009, 10:57

Agreal=Raelag is a guess, not a fact. Undead betrayal is a guess, not a fact. All guesses and very little facts.

IN YOUR FACE...


Also, i'd like it to be noted that both where indeed facts, we just didn't know it at the time (o ye of little faith...).

Hey BT... 10x for reminding me to gloat.
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Postby Bandobras Took » Jul 28 2009, 14:19

QueenIsabel=QueenCatherine
Wrong.
Agrael/Raelag=LordHaart
Wrong.
Godric=Christian
Wrong.
DemonSovereign=LuciferKreegan
Also wrong.
Nicolai=KingGryphonheart, with some Roland thrown in.
Close, but not entirely accurate.
it's the turning into undead, defeating the demons and then probably fighting against a betrayal by the undead (you really think the undead won't betray Isabel?).
Wrong order. And while Markal technically betrayed Isabel, he didn't do it by sending armies against her.
And powerful Necromancers didn't kill the king, he got poisoned by someone who was secretly working for another faction.
Wrong.
Bah, you're hanging on to the little things. (Raelag)'s the betrayer.
Wrong.
so what if she wants him raised, if in the end she still gets to destroy him? It's a variation on the same story.
Wrong.
Notice the nice list I made a while back about character corespondance? Maybe i'm wrong
Well, that last part is pretty accurate.
And the event's of AB spun out of the Death of the former Demon ruler at some time in RoE.
Wrong. The death of the Demon ruler occurs in Might and Magic VII.
And what makes you think the demons are gonna be the focus of the entire story in H5?
The fact that they were, and anybody who did a little research could have put it together, much less somebody claiming to be an expert on storytelling?
Notice how at the start I said the H3 story?! Not the H3 RoE story?
Interesting twist to King Gryphonheart's tale in H3.
King Gryphonheart has no tale except in RoE. So, no, I didn't notice, mainly because you didn't say the H3 story, you said King Gryphonheart's tale.
Hey BT... 10x for reminding me to gloat.
You're welcome, but out of curiosity . . . just what are you gloating about?
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 28 2009, 15:18

This would justify gloating:
Agreal=Raelag is a guess, not a fact. Undead betrayal is a guess, not a fact. All guesses and very little facts.

As for the rest... wow, good nitpicking, i couldn't have done it better myself.



Let's just go with this:
Close, but not entirely accurate.
So unless i had handed in a complete transcript of the plot of H5 before the game came out i'm totally wrong i guess...


It's nice how you ignored when i said that they don't have to fit perfectly, and even CG said it...
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Postby Bandobras Took » Jul 28 2009, 22:33

Pointing out that you almost got one out of five correct is hardly nitpicking.

Also, as I pointed out, the Undead Betrayal, if you can even call it that, had nothing to do with them marching armies on Queen Isabel, so you're gloating over the fact that you got Agrael-Raelag correct and everything else about him wrong. :)
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 29 2009, 6:34

Pointing out that you almost got one out of five correct is hardly nitpicking.
Wrong. (see what i did there, i said you're wrong, but didn't elaborate at all... it's fun).

Also, as I pointed out, the Undead Betrayal, if you can even call it that, had nothing to do with them marching armies on Queen Isabel, so you're gloating over the fact that you got Agrael-Raelag correct and everything else about him wrong. :)
Because i said that it has to be exactly undead armies vs Isabel... oh no wait, you did, and even CG called you out on it...


also, is it just me or are you just keeping going because you're arguing with me? I'm asking coz of this comment you made to CG back then:
On the whole, I agree with you. So long as we're not jumping the gun on the complaints.
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Postby Elias_Maluco » Jul 29 2009, 19:05

Congrats to you both, thats got to be one of the nerdiest discussions Ive ever read. Keep up the good work!

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 31 2009, 6:17

Congrats to you both, thats got to be one of the nerdiest discussions Ive ever read. Keep up the good work!
You must be new to the internet....
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Postby Elias_Maluco » Jul 31 2009, 18:28

You must be new to the internet....
Not really. You, however, seems to be spending too much time on it...

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Postby ThunderTitan » Aug 5 2009, 9:21

Some things, once seen, can't be unseen... THE HORROR, THE HORROR! (meh, i need something to do at work to prevent me from actually doing work, don't i)
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Postby vicheron » Aug 5 2009, 10:35

The problem here is that the Heroes 3 storyline actually made sense. The Necromancers had a pretty smart plan. They assassinated King Gryponheart so that Eofol and Nighon would go to war with Erathia in its moment of weakness and try to plunder its treasures. Their plan to use King Gryphonheart to lead their army against Catherine was strategically sound since King Gryphonheart knew all of Erathia's military secrets, as well as strategies used by their generals, and his presence in the undead army would severely damage Erathian morale. The necromancers simply didn't anticipate how powerful King Gryphonheart would become after he was transformed into a lich. In fact, if the other necromancers' fear of Gryphonheart hadn't caused them to betray him, he probably would have conquered Erathia and made Deyja the most powerful empire on Antagarich.

Markal's plan was simply based on luck and the mental instability of Isabel. If Nicolai hadn't died or if Isabel wasn't so stupid and gullible, Markal would have just sulked in a cemetery talking to that skull of his. In fact, he had no long term plans on how he would build his empire. All he did was make a bunch of enemies that he wasn't able to defeat. Having Vampire Nicolai going on a crazy rampage against the elves made no sense. Markal didn't even consolidate his power over the Griffin Empire. He also failed to completely destroy opposition from the wizards.

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Postby Corlagon » Aug 5 2009, 11:49

Bandobras, I notice you write them all off as wrong with no further comment yet I can certainly see where ThunderTitan is getting some of his parallels from - I came up with the same ideas a while ago at Heroes Community. Putting the actual Heroes V characters aside (i.e. Raelag is nothing like Lord Haart), their actual roles and actions are very similar to some from the Heroes III saga, in essence at least.

i.e.

Raelag = double agent for "evil" mastermind (Kha-Beleth). Poisons the king (Nicolai), then serves the Queen (Isabel) for the remainder of the story. The Queen learns he is in fact the king's murderer, and he is killed accordingly forgiven (?)
Lord Haart = double agent for "evil" mastermind (Finneas). Poisons the king (Nicolas), then serves the Queen (Catherine) for the remainder of the story. The Queen learns he is in fact the king's murderer, and he is killed accordingly

The Sovereign = leader of the (Demon)s and their realm (Sheogh), having usurped his position from (Six Demon Overlords) through force. Desperate to set the world on fire, his plans hinge on the continued loyalty of a half-Human half-(Demon) named (Sareth) and a chain of events triggered by the actions of Queen (Isabel). Yet he is defeated accordingly by an unlikely conglomerate of do-gooders, though his actions "live on" and the world ends up doomed by his McGuffin of Power (Skull of Shadows).
Lucifer = leader of the (Kreegan)s and their realm (Eeofol), having usurped his position from (Xenofex) through force. Desperate to set the world on fire, his plans hinge on the continued loyalty of a half-Human half-(Kreegan) named (Xeron) and a chain of events triggered by the actions of Queen (Catherine). Yet he is defeated accordingly by an unlikely conglomerate of do-gooders, though his actions "live on" and the world ends up doomed by his McGuffin of Power (Armageddon's Blade).

Might and Magic VII is the direct sequel to Restoration of Erathia, even more so than Armageddon's Blade, so I'd typically include it in the Heroes III "quintology" (plus Heroes Chronicles), just as Dark Messiah is a part of the Heroes V story. You could for instance isolate the Hammers of Fate storyline and take it apart from there too, but you'd get nowhere if you didn't consider the vanilla version as well.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Aug 6 2009, 8:50

The discussion moved to the thread that originally made me revive this one... but he's still concentrating on the trees, claiming they're not a forest...
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