10 questions faq made in paris-

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby hellegennes » Jun 30 2012, 17:43

Okay, it's fair that you feel that way. Maybe I'm not explaining this appropriately. I'm not suggesting that you can't be entitled to an opinion. Opinions are free, you can have as many as you want. I'm just saying that it can't have the same weight if you are talking about things you don't know. You may respect someone's opinion and act responsively but it's still not your own opinion.

With respect to videogames, if you don't try them out, you never can have a clear picture. It's not hard fact science, it's entertainment. Some things look attractive as ideas but may not suit your taste in the end and vice versa. If you are voicing an opinion based on someone else's views, with whom you share the same taste, you are just echoing their experience.

Bear in mind that I have personally criticised the game many times, here, in CH. I was sceptical of several things before it came out and I was disappointed about several others after its release. I've said that I'm not going to buy Pirates if it's just the content that has been advertised, if the price is really to be 10 dollars.

Nevertheless, it's sounds hollow if you do that without knowing exactly what you are talking about. You may have positive or negative feelings or have a general opinion, but it just doesn't add up when you are definitive about your views on something you don't know and even don't care about, as per your* words.


* not yours, personally.

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Postby Pitsu » Jun 30 2012, 18:14

hellegennes wrote:
Let the people who bought and used the product speak.


The H6 fans have almost flooded the forum with gameplay, mapmaking, modding topics where you speak in details not comprehensible to non-players. Is it really such problem if in one or a few topics also people who do not have the product speak? You think the forum cannot handle the traffic then?
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Postby jeff » Jun 30 2012, 18:45

hellegennes wrote: Nevertheless, it's sounds hollow if you do that without knowing exactly what you are talking about. You may have positive or negative feelings or have a general opinion, but it just doesn't add up when you are definitive about your views on something you don't know and even don't care about, as per your* words.
* not yours, personally.


I understand where you are coming from, which is why I usually preface my comments with the fact I have not bought it. So fans can then judge for themselves how much weight to give them. Most of my comments deal with the editor, and I have communicated with people in on the early development of it and others, and almost every comment I get back states utter disappointment in it. UBI admits it needs much work, but it is unclear (especially after a poor editor in H-V) whether they even have a clue what a good editor is. So I am confident I can form a good opinion on it, but I remain flexible should they address everyones' concerns.
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Postby hellegennes » Jun 30 2012, 20:19

Pitsu wrote:
hellegennes wrote:
Let the people who bought and used the product speak.


The H6 fans have almost flooded the forum with gameplay, mapmaking, modding topics where you speak in details not comprehensible to non-players. Is it really such problem if in one or a few topics also people who do not have the product speak? You think the forum cannot handle the traffic then?


Did I forbid you to speak? Am I even a moderator?

It just strikes me as at least weird that people want to voice their discontent about something they have no relation with and don't care about. It's like me going to a WoW forum and saying how much the game sucks. Do I have a general opinion, having seen people playing it, trying it for a bit, and knowing it's not my style of gaming? Yes, I do. Do I have the right to voice that opinion without ever buying the thing? Yes, I have. Would I? No. Why would I? It makes no sense going over to a WoW forum and saying how much I hate the game and that I wouldn't pay a dime for it and about how much happy I am with not buying it.

Other than that, feel free to be a non-player who shares his views of discontent for the game, in a Heroes-specific forum. I never said you have no right of doing so.

Of course, it's a bit different for people expressing their disappointment on issues of the game, even if they didn't buy it, if and only if are interested in the specific game, otherwise or the future of the series in general.

I'm tired of people saying how much they hate Ubisoft for ruining their game, like it was their property or as if they had a contract with an invisible force of the universe, promising that the series would continue forever and every title would please them to their very soul. It's disappointing to have your expectations about something you love plunge; I agree. But hating the company like it's their obligation to forever provide you with fun titles* is absurd. It's not "ruining the series" just "stop adding good titles". Not adding is not subtracting. Look:

15+14+16=45
15+14+16+0=45

See? And we have guys like berntie saying out right that they won't be bothered with future titles anyway, so why does he feel this is an important information for the rest of us?


* which may be fun enough for others, mind you.

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Postby jeff » Jun 30 2012, 22:54

hellegennes wrote: It just strikes me as at least weird that people want to voice their discontent about something they have no relation with and don't care about. It's like me going to a WoW forum and saying how much the game sucks.


That comparison applies only if you played earlier versions of WoW and are now turned off by its current form.

hellegennes wrote: I'm tired of people saying how much they hate Ubisoft for ruining their game, like it was their property or as if they had a contract with an invisible force of the universe, promising that the series would continue forever and every title would please them to their very soul.


You have two choices get an ulcer or get over it. People are not going to stop hating UBI for what they did. Fans have expectations, when not met they are going to point to the company after all as you said they own it, so it is their fault whether we like the game or not. It makes no difference if you agree with their reasons; it’s just the way it is.


hellegennes wrote: It's disappointing to have your expectations about something you love plunge; I agree. But hating the company like it's their obligation to forever provide you with fun titles* is absurd. It's not "ruining the series" just "stop adding good titles".


Isn’t it their obligation to produce what I want if they want my business? They can change the game into anything they want, but they have to be willing to face the music. I can’t speak for anyone else, but the reason I didn’t buy H-6, was because of my disappointment with H-5 and its editor. I was not willing to risk any money on a product I found equally or more disappointing. The reaction of the fans and the discussions I had with others about the editor prevents me from buying it. Fix it produce what I want and I will buy it.
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Postby hellegennes » Jul 1 2012, 0:11

jeff wrote:That comparison applies only if you played earlier versions of WoW and are now turned off by its current form.


Basically... no. There's an intrinsic difference between version and title. H1-5 are not different versions of H6, they are different games. Actually, very few series contain so many successful titles in their arsenal. It's not illogical to have a title go wrong (which in my opinion hasn't; it was just released prematurely). But if you want to stress it that way, change WoW to Diablo (I own I and II and don't like III).

jeff wrote:Isn’t it their obligation to produce what I want if they want my business.


I don't understand. Does Ubisoft blame you for not buying it? If not, then why do you say "Fix it produce what I want and I will buy it"? They didn't force you to buy it. Even more so, since they don't force you to buy their games, they have no obligation to provide you with anything. It's their right altogether to even stop producing any title. It's their property, not yours. It's their right. You may be entitled to sadness but anything else is selfish.

Now, the company want to make money so they produce titles which they believe conform to some standards. They care about pleasing their customers as long as they gain money in the process. So yes, they have an interest in pleasing you, but not because they have the obligation to do so. Hence, it makes no sense to believe they are not interested in your opinion or in pleasing you. And, at the same, it also makes no sense to believe they need to do it, since it's not a public service, an established quality that the state has to provide you with, for which you have already paid through taxation. They sell - you buy. That's just it.

I'm not trying to change your opinion about the game; that would be stupid. I'm just trying to convince about the level of inanity in claiming anyone has to do things the way you want, because you have high expectations from it... and then whine about it and hate them despite not trying the product and proclaiming that you will never be bothered with them again.

Sorry if I sound offensive. It's not my intention to insult anyone. I am just provoking you to think in different directions, with a bit more realism and cold logic.

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Postby jeff » Jul 1 2012, 1:39

hellegennes wrote: There's an intrinsic difference between version and title. H1-5 are not different versions of H6,


Sorry on this one we won't agree and that is ok, but if you claim to continue the Heroes tradition then it is a new version or call it something else.

hellegennes wrote:I don't understand. Does Ubisoft blame you for not buying it? If not, then why do you say "Fix it produce what I want and I will buy it"? They didn't force you to buy it. Even more so, since they don't force you to buy their games, they have no obligation to provide you with anything. It's their right altogether to even stop producing any title. It's their property, not yours. It's their right. You may be entitled to sadness but anything else is selfish.



You're right you don't understand, I don't care if they blame me. I blame them for not creating a product that I want, and I don't know where I suggested they are trying to force me to buy, it's no big deal I excercise my rights and I just don't buy. They can move on without me. That is a bit sanctimonious to suggest that anything other than sadness is selfish. I mean really; we can easily be angry if something many of us have played for decades is changed into something that has alienated a lot of us.


hellegennes wrote:I'm just trying to convince about the level of inanity in claiming anyone has to do things the way you want, because you have high expectations from it... and then whine about it and hate them despite not trying the product and proclaiming that you will never be bothered with them again.


Fans are fans they will praise what they like complain and hate what they don't whether they buy it or not. This is strike two for me after the abysmal failure of the H-5 editor; so I may be done with them we'll see. I don't ask anyone to boycott UBI; that is for everyone to decide for themselves. Look I know we are both trying not to offend, so you have to right to rebutal, but I am done. Continuing this would make us both guilty of the whining you find objectional.
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Postby hellegennes » Jul 1 2012, 7:47

Okay, that's fair. Although I thought we were just conversing. One last thing I want to say is that I consider myself to be a fan. I've been playing Heroes and MM games since 1995 and I own all H and MM titles that have been released ever since plus I've played all the MM titles that were ever released. That makes me a fan, I believe. I always thought that fans will support, no matter if they disagree with stuff.

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Postby berntie » Jul 1 2012, 14:02

hellegennes, I won't comment everything you wrote but I think I'll have to say something about (what I perceive as) the core of your issue:

hellegennes wrote:I'm tired of people saying how much they hate Ubisoft for ruining their game, like it was their property or as if they had a contract with an invisible force of the universe, promising that the series would continue forever and every title would please them to their very soul. It's disappointing to have your expectations about something you love plunge; I agree. But hating the company like it's their obligation to forever provide you with fun titles* is absurd. It's not "ruining the series" just "stop adding good titles". Not adding is not subtracting.
I never said, I hate Ubi. I never demanded anything from Ubi. I never claimed any right to a good Heroes franchise. I never said Ubi "ruined the series". In fact, I was very specific when I said that "The old games provide quite enough content for me. And I haven't even tried the original M&M RPG series. For me, there's enough left to explore, and I think, there always will be."

You're imagining a lot of statements, demands, claims, etc. that I never issued:
hellegennes wrote:I'm just trying to convince about the level of inanity in claiming anyone has to do things the way you want, because you have high expectations from it...
Please provide a quote where I claimed that Ubi must do as I wish.

hellegennes wrote:* which may be fun enough for others, mind you.
I also never told you to hate Ubi or the game. I don't know where that impression comes from. If you like HVI, that's fine. Feel free to disagree with me anytime. I have no problem with that. Example? Here's one:

hellegennes wrote:Any question which basically says "will you work for me for free, slave?", should really only be answered with "sod you".
"For free" you say. I'd say anybody who can potentially use the DLC will have spent lots of money on a piece of beta software. And I don't consider a request for compensation as a demand for slave labour.

hellegennes wrote:And we have guys like berntie saying out right that they won't be bothered with future titles anyway, so why does he feel this is an important information for the rest of us?
A)I just said it is very very likely, that I won't be bothered with a sequel. B)I do not feel that my views on the game are an important information for everybody reading here. But this is a discussion board. It is not only about important information. It's for asking questions, for debating opinions, and much, much more. You should be aware of that.

I'll continue to state my discontent with products that I am potentially interested in but fail to deliver. If you feel offended by that: Sorry, man. Not my intention. But I won't stop:

Ubi, if you want me to purchase any of your products: Stop forcing me to go online to play, release games without bugs, and charge reasonable prices!

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Postby hellegennes » Jul 1 2012, 14:51

The comments are not specific to you. Some of the things however do apply to you, specifically, and I don't think it's my imagination. Have you or have you not stated that "They* killed the Heroes franchise", which is "they ruined the series"?

Again, most of the comments you are referring to are general, which is why I only referred to you, by name, once.

berntie wrote:"For free" you say. I'd say anybody who can potentially use the DLC will have spent lots of money on a piece of beta software. And I don't consider a request for compensation as a demand for slave labour.


The game is not a beta. It did come out with bugs and issues but they are fixing them with patches, which is common practice and may be irritating or bad industry practice, but that's a whole other issue. We are not talking here about how the videogaming industry operates in general. Both the way the "question" is asked and your own wording, suggest that you don't demand them to work for free, per se, but imply that they are arseholes if they don't.

Note that I'm not offended in any way nor am I so much annoyed. I just point out my own opinion, which is that this kind of behaviour borders on inanity and the people who express their discontent in such a way are being somewhat irrational.

There's a line -fine or not; I don't know- between normal complaints and irrational ones. I think we just stand on different sides of the line. I am customer, not that much happy with the product and you are a non-customer not at all happy with the product. That's all. No offence, no anger, no requesting you stop complaining, no nothing.

* as in Ubisoft

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Postby jeff » Jul 1 2012, 15:30

hellegennes wrote:Okay, that's fair. Although I thought we were just conversing. One last thing I want to say is that I consider myself to be a fan. I've been playing Heroes and MM games since 1995 and I own all H and MM titles that have been released ever since plus I've played all the MM titles that were ever released. That makes me a fan, I believe. I always thought that fans will support, no matter if they disagree with stuff.


We were and I did not want it to turn unpleasant. However a fan's support is not like a dog's unconditional love; a fan expects whatever they expect right or wrong. In my case I was disappointed with H-5, but gave them a second chance with HOF which had a few improvements. However, when Fabrice stated shortly after the release of Tribes, they hadn't realized that fans were disappointed with their editor; it showed a lack of connection between UBI and the fans. Fair enough but from that point my support of any of their products would depend solely on whether it met my desires. Selfish, yes but I was not going to buy their product in hopes that someday they would make an editor I could use. Yes my buy/no buy decision is strictly based on the editor. You see I don't care for the antiquated H3 game style (sorry I prefer H-IV) or their new universe but give me an editor I can use and I will create my own stories in my on imaginary universe and be quite happy. I do not know who their VIP members are but obviously not many knew enough about what type of editor many fans required or perhaps too few cared, UBI’s loss.
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Postby hellegennes » Jul 1 2012, 16:01

I wholeheartedly agree with your feelings toward H5 and how Ubisoft is terrible with community management. I think however that the most reasonable thing to say after all that, is just your last words: their loss.

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Postby berntie » Jul 1 2012, 16:28

hellegennes wrote:The comments are not specific to you. Some of the things however do apply to you, specifically, and I don't think it's my imagination. Have you or have you not stated that "They* killed the Heroes franchise", which is "they ruined the series"?
Yes, I said they "killed the franchise". However, I think I was very specific that that refers to its presence and very likely its future. Not its past. You said:
hellegennes wrote:It's not "ruining the series" just "stop adding good titles".
So you insinuate I claimed they also ruined the past. Otherwise I don't see a difference between our statements.

hellegennes wrote:Both the way the "question" is asked and your own wording, suggest that you don't demand them to work for free, per se, but imply that they are arseholes if they don't.
Yes, it implies that I do not approve if Ubi refuses to compensate people who bought the game. But I never called anybody an "arsehole".

hellegennes wrote:Note that I'm not offended in any way nor am I so much annoyed. I just point out my own opinion, which is that this kind of behaviour borders on inanity and the people who express their discontent in such a way are being somewhat irrational.
Ok, I can live with that.

hellegennes wrote:I am customer, not that much happy with the product and you are a non-customer not at all happy with the product. That's all. No offence, no anger, no requesting you stop complaining, no nothing.
Good. :-)

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Re: 10 questions faq made in paris-

Postby Znork » Jul 2 2012, 8:53

jeff wrote:
Campaign editor aside; this is a disturbing answer and shows a complete lack of understanding on the part of UBI. Define hardcore mapmaker; to me it has nothing to do with your computer expertise. I would like to think I am one, but have no intention on using an editor this is much more complex than the H-IV editor. So does that make me really a casual mapmaker in their eyes? If that is how they are going to approach it; then for me don’t bother. :mad:


Hi jeff first off all the answer was a bit longer and it was very hard writing donw their answers. So i can only say this im sitting withe the opsit feeling of the answer. They have plans to do alot withe the map editor to make it easyer to us for you. So i dont think you should be so concered from the answer jeff.
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Re: 10 questions faq made in paris-

Postby Pitsu » Jul 2 2012, 11:00

Znork wrote:
jeff wrote:
Campaign editor aside; this is a disturbing answer and shows a complete lack of understanding on the part of UBI. Define hardcore mapmaker; to me it has nothing to do with your computer expertise. I would like to think I am one, but have no intention on using an editor this is much more complex than the H-IV editor. So does that make me really a casual mapmaker in their eyes? If that is how they are going to approach it; then for me don’t bother. :mad:


Hi jeff first off all the answer was a bit longer and it was very hard writing donw their answers. So i can only say this im sitting withe the opsit feeling of the answer. They have plans to do alot withe the map editor to make it easyer to us for you. So i dont think you should be so concered from the answer jeff.


I think you misunderstood what Jeff was saying. He was saying that Ubi's definition for "hardcore mapmaker" is different from his view and therefore even if the words agree, the meanings may clash. And one misunderstanding may easily lead to another one.

UBI: hardcore mapmaker is the one who can handle H5 and H6 editors, which are powerful building tools but have minimal user interface.

Jeff (the way i understood his words): hardcore mapmaker is the one who is a fan of the game, but spends more time with the editor than with the game. In other words hardcore mapmaker is defined by the quality, quantity and originality of maps produced rather than the skill of handling the editor.

If their definition for "casual mapmaker" is wrong they may also "fix" the editor in a "wrong" way.
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Postby Znork » Jul 2 2012, 12:06

well then i would belive he has made a post a post somwhere what is wrong wihte the curent version of the mapeditor and what should be fixed and what not. Becuse the limbic is gona start working on very soon.

The more spesifik suche a post is the bether for everyone:D And i think hos focus on the use of catual and hardcore should not concern him to much. But this is realy the time for som of the map makers to tell limbic what needs beeing done. And rember marzhin will also be part of this i would belive.
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Postby jeff » Jul 2 2012, 14:03

Znork wrote:Hi jeff first off all the answer was a bit longer and it was very hard writing donw their answers. So i can only say this im sitting withe the opsit feeling of the answer. They have plans to do alot withe the map editor to make it easyer to us for you. So i dont think you should be so concered from the answer jeff.


This is encouraging we’ll see how it proceeds. ;)

Pitsu wrote: UBI: hardcore mapmaker is the one who can handle H5 and H6 editors, which are powerful building tools but have minimal user interface.

Jeff (the way i understood his words): hardcore mapmaker is the one who is a fan of the game, but spends more time with the editor than with the game. In other words hardcore mapmaker is defined by the quality, quantity and originality of maps produced rather than the skill of handling the editor.

If their definition for "casual mapmaker" is wrong they may also "fix" the editor in a "wrong" way.


You have my definition correct; I only play the game now to learn enough about the mechanics and general play to make an effective map. :yes:

Znork wrote:well then i would belive he has made a post a post somwhere what is wrong wihte the curent version of the mapeditor and what should be fixed and what not. Becuse the limbic is gona start working on very soon.


There is the rub. I and others have been saying since UBI bought the MM franchise, that the H-IV editor is a good place to start. Change the objects give us some more commands but stay with the menu driven system and the ease of use it creates. So I am not sure how to pound that idea into their heads. Fabrice seemed to deny any knowledge that was what we/I was looking for. I know Corlagon had been active in some of the early steps of the process, but was completely disappointed in the end result. So if he is not being listened to; how do I get the message to them. I am available to discuss it with them but there is no chance that will happen? So Captain Smith there is an iceberg ahead should we slow down? :cantsee:
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Postby Znork » Jul 2 2012, 14:48

Well its the discusion part that is a littel hard since the ubi people have a lot of laywers who kinda watch out for everything. If you where to make a top 10 list of things you would like to improve in the map editor and i think they will listen to what you say.
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Postby MoNoXiDeBlue » Jul 2 2012, 19:59

I find it amusing that in the response to Q#2. he's in so few words admitting the game was released in beta form. Good Q&A session Znork!

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Postby hellegennes » Jul 2 2012, 21:39

MoNoXiDeBlue wrote:I find it amusing that in the response to Q#2. he's in so few words admitting the game was released in beta form. Good Q&A session Znork!


Nope. That's what you read. I don't see them admitting such a thing. The game was not a beta, after all.

Maybe if people started to use words more carefully, they wouldn't lose meaning.


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