The GOOD of H6

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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wimfrits
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The GOOD of H6

Postby wimfrits » Apr 23 2012, 9:38

Enough ranting going on already. Let's take a look at the positive changes H6 brought to the series.

Here's my list:

Might and Magic heroes are actually different
Never before there was such a clear difference between might and magic heroes of a faction. A very good thing for a series that has these keywords in the title.

player gains experience after level cap is reached
A brightening of the dull period between reaching the level cap and finishing a map that's been with the series since the beginning. The player is still rewarded for his efforts by developing dynasty weapons and dynasty level. Brilliant!

units are unique
H5 started with each unit having distinct uses on the battlefield. H6 brought this concept to a more mature level, where each unit's abilities need to be considered seperately during combat.

tier balance
For the first time in heroes history the game has a reasonable tier balance!! Where lower level units remain useful throughout a game. I think higher level units in H6 should be somewhat stronger, but still a HUGE step in the direction of good tier balance.

all racial skills executed during combat (and only effecting combat)
Simultaneously allowing better balance of racial skills and increasing tactical options

tavern heroes gain experience over time
Heroes bought at a later time in game can now do other things besides transporting units

reduction of resource types
Reducing randomness to a more acceptable level while maintaining a considerable resource management part
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Re: The GOOD of H6

Postby Pitsu » Apr 23 2012, 10:53

wimfrits wrote:Might and Magic heroes are actually different
Never before there was such a clear difference between might and magic heroes of a faction. A very good thing for a series that has these keywords in the title.


even more diverse than in H4?

player gains experience after level cap is reached
A brightening of the dull period between reaching the level cap and finishing a map that's been with the series since the beginning. The player is still rewarded for his efforts by developing dynasty weapons and dynasty level. Brilliant!


Level caps are IMo stupid even for campaigns. I'd prefer to go with a lvl1 hero each map. Regarding experience H5 and H6 have significantly altered the exp need for higer levels, so that level-ups are limited to early game and tree of knowledge.


units are unique
H5 started with each unit having distinct uses on the battlefield. H6 brought this concept to a more mature level, where each unit's abilities need to be considered seperately during combat.


Fine, although it shifts from strategy to tactics.

tier balance
For the first time in heroes history the game has a reasonable tier balance!! Where lower level units remain useful throughout a game. I think higher level units in H6 should be somewhat stronger, but still a HUGE step in the direction of good tier balance.


IMO H1/2 had pretty good balance except a very few units. There were officially 6 levels, but their strengths went on by other principles than tier.

all racial skills executed during combat (and only effecting combat)
Simultaneously allowing better balance of racial skills and increasing tactical options


Again I'd prefer to have some skills that are not directly in combat. I want a strategy game.

tavern heroes gain experience over time
Heroes bought at a later time in game can now do other things besides transporting units


Mentoring in principle is an interesting idea, but it came in H5. IMO exp for secondary heroes in H6 is cheap. I am mostly playing H2 nowadays and on larger maps you simply cannot have only one hero anyway. A few large battles in late game and every hero can rise to decent levels. With H5/6 type experience curve it could be even more easy in these games.

reduction of resource types
Reducing randomness to a more acceptable level while maintaining a considerable resource management part

blasphemy
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Postby Banedon » Apr 23 2012, 12:09

I can't really feel much difference with most of the things you noted wimfrits. The Might and Magic heroes are more distinctive than in other non-H4 games I guess, although this is balanced by the fact that all the heroes feel so similar. In H5 for example there's a big difference between Warlocks and Barbarians, and not so in H6.

The tier balance is something I've learned to deal with. It's mildly annoying at points that you can't tank damage with a high-level unit, e.g. in H5 you could attack a Defender stack with Treants to absorb the retaliation yet still know that the Defenders will not hit hard enough to kill your Treants. Not so in H6. Nonetheless this too is compensated for by the powerful defensive skills.

Tavern heroes gaining experience over time is great in the sense that you can load up all your tavern heroes with Logistics Pathfinding etc, but it makes it explicitly better to have your tavern heroes pick up resources on the map.

Reduction of resource types is something that was controversial but in the end not too much impact for me. I suppose you now burn through Wood and Ore quite fast since you still only get +2 per mine but all your buildings need them, and I suppose you have less options in the Marketplace, but that's all.

Good graphics is the best part of H6 for me.
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Re: The GOOD of H6

Postby wimfrits » Apr 23 2012, 12:16

Pitsu wrote:even more diverse than in H4?


Depends. For campaigns: absolutely. In H4 heroes all heroes end up with 2 might and 3 magic trees.

Level caps are IMo stupid even for campaigns.


I think both ways have merit. I still think the H2 campaigns are the most entertaining of the series, but also enjoy developing a hero over the course of several maps.
Still, considering level caps a feature, using dynasty to fill up the gap afterwards is very nice.

IMO H1/2 had pretty good balance except a very few units. There were officially 6 levels, but their strengths went on by other principles than tier.


Pretty good indeed compared to H3-H5. But for instance none of the tier-1 units were of any use in mid-to-late game. Except sprites and skeletons due to necromancy.
Still, this is nowhere near the tier balance of H6.

Again I'd prefer to have some skills that are not directly in combat. I want a strategy game.


As is obvious in all of the previous installments; mixing adventure and combat abilities creates a game that is impossible to balance. I'd much rather see a balanced game.
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Postby Spin » Apr 23 2012, 12:49

My main good point is that they have the BEST looking adventure map of the series. It's such a brilliant adventure map I believe, just makes the game look that pretty when you're watching it. I know graphics aren't usually a big thing in Turn based strategies (and they should be of a lower priority to some others), but to me the adventure map graphics are simply amazing and should not be forgotten as an achievement. It looks seamless, like you don't even know the map's made out of squares and tiles, the campaign maps (particularly Inferno 1) have great map objects, and different terrains have a great atmosphere to them.

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Postby Corlagon » Apr 23 2012, 13:26

Complex 3D adventure map frills appear to me to be much more harmful to these games than good, considering that creating a map of your own now takes months on end, applying layer after layer of non-interactive eyecandy - whereas in H1-3 even a beginner can whip together a good design in ten minutes. During development I had often wondered what tricks they had up their sleeves to strike a good balance here and reconcile map beauty and editor functionality for H6... but I guess they just didn't have any.

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Postby Groovy » Apr 23 2012, 15:01

I think that the game developers correctly identified the areas of the Heroes series that were most in need of improvement (useless secondary heroes, cannon-fodder low-tier troops, excessive randomness, etc). They also introduced some changes (battlefield structures, etc) that have the potential to significantly enhance gameplay. While the changes themselves were often of questionable value, I’m hopeful that the next instalment in the series will build on these lessons to solidly improve on its predecessors.

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Postby Dalai » Apr 24 2012, 9:17

Corlagon wrote:Complex 3D adventure map frills appear to me to be much more harmful to these games than good

Wait till they make a minimap in 3D. Technology doesn't wait, you know ;)
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Postby wimfrits » Apr 24 2012, 11:16

Banedon wrote:I can't really feel much difference with most of the things you noted wimfrits


Argh! Am I the only one who sees the revolutionary design decision made? ;)

Good graphics is the best part of H6 for me.


That's what everyone's saying. Improved graphics is something I expect of a next installment any time.

Groovy wrote:I think that the game developers correctly identified the areas of the Heroes series that were most in need of improvement (useless secondary heroes, cannon-fodder low-tier troops, excessive randomness, etc).


Hear, hear! :)
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Postby Zareth » Apr 24 2012, 19:31

I actually enjoyed playing the story mode for this one quite a bit in comparison to HMM5. I also enjoyed actual combat instead of quick combat more in this one too. My only problem is that I NEED to be connected to the net to play SINGLE PLAYER >.>

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Postby Mozared » Apr 25 2012, 0:40

wimfrits wrote:Argh! Am I the only one who sees the revolutionary design decision made? ;)


No! I very much agree with you. Even though every Heroes game is a Heroes game, they do all differ and improve upon a couple points. The things you named are all things I like specifically in Heroes 6, moreso than I did in previous games. Some of them, like the skill system, was pretty good pre-6, but rubbed me in a different way. I like the balance and make-up of this one.

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Postby XEL II » Apr 25 2012, 2:14

The good of MMH6 is the story. Sure, it's not as good as in MM 2-8 or HoMM 3-4, but still quite an improvement after the debacle HoMM5 story was, as well as being better fleshed out than the storylines of CoH and DMoMM. I'd hazard to say that it's story is the best in Ashan series.
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Postby Pol » Apr 25 2012, 5:54

The story, from the middle to the end is catastrophical. The dialogues are boring and the clean mark of insufficient time devoted from author. (As I think not his fault.) The beginning is well started.

The graphics is the strong part of the game and it's not only.

However overall the game is not funny to play in current conditions.
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Postby XEL II » Apr 25 2012, 6:40

Yeah, graphics as well, they are excellent.

I can't exacty agree that the story is a train wreck in the latter half, at least not with all campaigns. Sandor and Kiril campaigns were actually quite good or, at least, fine all throughout.

As for the characters, the best in my opinion are Kiril, Kraal, Ishtvan, Michael and the Faceless Librarian. My least favorites are Sveltana and Kate, both shallow, not likable, not charismatic Mary Sues with lousy voice acting
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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Apr 25 2012, 11:02

Pol wrote:The story, from the middle to the end is catastrophical. The dialogues are boring and the clean mark of insufficient time devoted from author. (As I think not his fault.) The beginning is well started.
.
The story was probably in development for a while, since they've been marketing it for well over a year. It started out well because they were selling all these potential plot hooks where we wondered where they'd go with them and it ended poorly because they actually didn't quite get anywhere with these plot hooks.

One of the funniest parts of the plot is Irina getting pregnant after being raped and she was like "that's gross". A guy wrote her lines, no doubt.

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Postby XEL II » Apr 25 2012, 12:24

ywhtptgtfo wrote:One of the funniest parts of the plot is Irina getting pregnant after being raped and she was like "that's gross". A guy wrote her lines, no doubt.

She was actually not outright raped, but rather... taken advantage of when under influence. Note how she doesn't exactly remember what has transpired, and Gerhart mentions giving her "a few bottles of wine".

BTW, you're mistaken, Irina's reaction on the news of being pregnant is quite emotional.
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Postby Naki » Apr 25 2012, 21:46

DAMN!!!! NO SPOILERs please! No names of characters that only appear later in the story/etc! Some of us have NOT finished the damn game yet! 8| :disagree: :disagree:
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Postby Mozared » Apr 26 2012, 11:58

Naki wrote:DAMN!!!! NO SPOILERs please! No names of characters that only appear later in the story/etc! Some of us have NOT finished the damn game yet! 8| :disagree: :disagree:

Is it not kind of obvious that something like that would happen?

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Postby FreshHope » Apr 26 2012, 18:05

Let me add...i often have a good laugh during combat scenes, when it is time for your units to move, but your hands are occupied by something else and they start dancing or playing with whatever they can get their hands on to. It's very comical and adds a touch of lightheartedness to the whole experience :) :)

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Postby wimfrits » Apr 27 2012, 6:41

I agree the pause animations are good. Rather daring too compared to previous games.

@Mozared: Glad to see someone else with an eye for innovation :D
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