Retaliation Poll

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Which retaliation mechanic would you prefer for H6?

Simultaneous Retaliation
7
27%
Counter Attack
16
62%
Other (Please Explain)
3
12%
 
Total votes: 26

mr.hackcrag
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Retaliation Poll

Postby mr.hackcrag » Oct 8 2011, 23:23

Which retaliation style would you prefer for H6 and how come?

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Elvin
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Postby Elvin » Oct 9 2011, 11:15

Counter attack of course. Sim retaliation was freaking annoying and made little sense too. I can see why nwc decided to implement it but it certainly alienated me, also I no longer see the reason to consider it when the first strike in H6 is nowhere near as decisive as in the past.
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Postby Metathron » Oct 9 2011, 11:33

I know the majority prefers counter attack for some reason, my guess is "because that's what things were always like". It's not that I dislike that system at all. It's fun and that's what matters.

But how can you possibly claim simultaneous retaliations make little sense? If you got into a fight, would you wait for your opponent to strike first and only then retaliate or would both of you be devising (counter) attacks simultaneously? Does a snake wait for a mongoose to maul it before trying to bite? So it actually makes perfect sense. I liked this concept and enjoyed having to plan how to be the first one to strike and cripple the opponent to a lesser or greater degree.
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Postby Elvin » Oct 9 2011, 11:46

Having practiced aikido for some time I know well enough that it is possible to 'retaliate' simultaneously or slightly earlier than the attack comes. However that takes incredible coordination and mobility which can take a while to gain and more importantly be confident enough to use naturally under all circumstances. Now if you also consider the fact that you have to successfully dodge, quite possibly in an armour, in the chaos of battle around you.. yeah.

No, that is not realistic. You could argue that both opponents clash head on and get hit one by the other but that implies no training, any idiot can do that. That or we are dealing with a charge against raised pikes or something. Besides.. A well-trained attacker is likely to slip the attack in, even if the other defends.

All that is irrelevant anyway. My point that it is an annoying feature for me and a good number of other people remains.
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Postby Pitsu » Oct 9 2011, 11:58

It depends on initiative system. If we have H3 or 5 style of system where entire army strikes first (mass haste or initiative boosts) and other side gets a move when it is almost done, then for game balance simultaneous would be better. On the other hand if we have H1 or some even more genious system where attacking side changes after (almost) each action then non-simultaneous attacks are fine and i would certainly prefer that way.

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Postby Panda Tar » Oct 9 2011, 14:06

I prefer counter attack.

However, if Speed or Initiative were to be used in micromanagement for timing over this matter, that'd be good. Perhaps it would also make some sense if you strike a foe from behind or from their side could decrease retaliation damage or rate of success.
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Postby jeff » Oct 9 2011, 14:48

I voted simultaneous because unless you are ambushing an opponent both sides attack at the same time. However if the one side is overwhelmingly stronger then there should be the possible result of not taking damage. For me one of the few annoyances of H-4 was the retaliating side always scored at least 1 hit point of damage.
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Postby Jac » Oct 9 2011, 15:26

Elvin wrote:Having practiced aikido for some time I know well enough that it is possible to 'retaliate' simultaneously or slightly earlier than the attack comes. However that takes incredible coordination and mobility which can take a while to gain and more importantly be confident enough to use naturally under all circumstances. Now if you also consider the fact that you have to successfully dodge, quite possibly in an armour, in the chaos of battle around you.. yeah.

No, that is not realistic. You could argue that both opponents clash head on and get hit one by the other but that implies no training, any idiot can do that. That or we are dealing with a charge against raised pikes or something. Besides.. A well-trained attacker is likely to slip the attack in, even if the other defends.

All that is irrelevant anyway. My point that it is an annoying feature for me and a good number of other people remains.


It's an army of goblins charging into an army of knights. 200 goblins vs 100 knights; it would make sense for the knights to attack as soon as the goblins have come up to your face.

I don't really have much of a preference, but the simultaneous retaliation was fun with the new spell/ability "first strike". It gave me a choice to be a little bit more daring with first strike units than always being somewhat defencive with counter-attack.

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Postby Banedon » Oct 9 2011, 16:07

To be honest, I don't mind, and I adapt to whatever comes my way. So I'm voting other.

Simultaneous retaliation makes more sense, but it would disadvantage melee units even more compared to ranged, so for game balance purposes perhaps counterattack is better.

@Elvin / Metathron - not the point, right? Suppose one army charges at another army, do you expect the second army to sit there and soak up the blows before retaliating, or do you expect an immediate bloodbath?
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Postby mr.hackcrag » Oct 9 2011, 16:28

Banedon wrote:Simultaneous retaliation makes more sense, but it would disadvantage melee units even more compared to ranged, so for game balance purposes perhaps counterattack is better.


That's why ranged units should have penalities for being out of range or target interference, etc. What kind of range penalties are there in H6?

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Postby Elvin » Oct 9 2011, 16:38

Some units have half range, also obstacles reduce ranged dmg.

@ sim ret
Yeah yeah some cases would make sense but you can't just take into account weapon length, reflexes, coordination etc for all units or how many of the defenders can pull off a successful hit when they are under attack and other stuff. So as a standard counterattack is better, especially with the H6 system that does not require it.
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Postby klaymen » Oct 9 2011, 17:45

Simultaneous.
Reasons for it were told in the discussion earlier and I agree with them.
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Postby Pitsu » Oct 9 2011, 18:02

Banedon wrote:@Elvin / Metathron - not the point, right? Suppose one army charges at another army, do you expect the second army to sit there and soak up the blows before retaliating, or do you expect an immediate bloodbath?


it is a question whether you look at it at the level of individual events where two hits almost never land at the very same microsecond or average all events over entire army.
Edit. checked up an interesting fact that in epee simultaneous touch is if the thrusts of both combatants land within 0.04 second.

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Postby vicheron » Oct 10 2011, 6:46

I think it would be interesting if they could introduce a retaliation system that's based on unit facing.

For example, if you attack a creature from the front, then the retaliation will be simultaneous. If you attack a creature from the back or the side, then retaliation occurs after the attack.

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Postby parcaleste » Oct 10 2011, 7:22

It is called TURN BASED with a sense, you know? Because when your turn comes it is YOUR TURN to strike. Not the opponents. And yes, when an army attacks while the other one is waiting... IT HITS. Of course, it is obvious some creatures can have the ability to attack simultaneously, or use advantages of the terrain (let's say it is snow or mud and they are well "trenched" for the enemy units do deal their high amount of damage). But doesn't simultaneously attacking also means both units hits their weapons "head to head" instead of actually doing damage to one another?

Yes, the game can develop in a way that, let's say, enemy cavalry (Sun Riders or whatever) can have lower speed on a muddie or snowy terrain, or archers range to vary in different weather (let's say it is raining or there is a mist or cloud of dust or whatever). This can always be done and it will be fun to have it,* but simultaneously attacking for all them creatures simply SCHMUCKS.


*Voted "Other" with that been said.

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Postby Torur » Oct 10 2011, 10:06

I voted for counter-attack.

I like TBS games and I want them to be TBS. You hit, I hit end of. If I wanted real time or a bad replica of real time, I would go for simultaneous.

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Postby Tress » Oct 10 2011, 10:21

Voted counter attack, even though in original KB it was simultaneous.
Imo same time retaliation takes away tactical element. Where is difference to wait or attack if you know that you will have to sacrifice some unit anyway. Sure it opens aspect in tactics that you are required to take away retalliation charge by using summons and etc but still, I prefer attacker first thing. Sure they may add some units that have special ability like homm4 first strike or one that makes retalitation at same time, but it should not be general rule. Secondly ranged simultaneous retaliation was illogical as hell.

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Postby TheUndeadKing » Oct 10 2011, 13:52

100 Enemy Swordsmen attack my 100 Swordsmen.
Enemy rolls a "Lucky Turn".
93 of my Swordsmen die.
Remaining 7 Swordsmen retaliate.
They can't kill a frickin' soldier.


Voted for Simultaneous Retaliation.
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Postby Torur » Oct 10 2011, 13:58

TheUndeadKing wrote:100 Enemy Swordsmen attack my 100 Swordsmen.
Enemy rolls a "Lucky Turn".
93 of my Swordsmen die.
Remaining 7 Swordsmen retaliate.
They can't kill a frickin' soldier.


Voted for Simultaneous Retaliation.

What game have you been playing? I know of no Heroes game where this can happen. Not even with a lucky turn, bless and a being far behind in def/atk stats.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Oct 10 2011, 15:00

It's not uncommon for one stack to completely destroy another before it can even do anything.

The huge advantage that the attacker has and the premium that is placed on speed/initiative stat affects the game negatively.

I like vicheron's idea; maybe add more elements like how many units the defender is engaged to or limiting the units movement when it is engaged to another unit.


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