A goodbye to HOMM! Heroes VI has ended my love for this game

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Heroes VI is a disappointment

Strongly Agree
25
21%
Agree
19
16%
Neutral
18
15%
Disagree
56
47%
 
Total votes: 118

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intipacha
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Postby intipacha » Sep 17 2011, 23:13

I strongly agree!

One helluva post! I guess the frustration is so big that it's reflected on the post length, but believe me - I feel exactly the same about H6 and about most modern games altogether!

But there's one good thing! We don't really NEED new Heroes games. Sure, the companies try to convince you otherwise. The companies convince others to convince you otherwise. Then others convince you to convince yourself you need a Heroes N++.

But really, no. You've got the good old ones. They're there on your disk. They will never go away. ;)

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Postby vhilhu » Sep 18 2011, 4:20

Hello.

I do not share or understand the sentiment behind the title of the thread: "A goodbye to HOMM! Heroes VI has ended my love for this game". "ended my love for this game"? Do you mean, ended my love for the Heroes of Might and Magic/Might and Magic: Heroes franchise?

If a new entry in a franchise is a disappointment, either due to perceived lack of quality & enchanting spirit, or due to lack of clear lineage from the previous games of the franchise (by discarding features that you have come to expect as "core features" of the games of the franchise) - does it somehow ruin the previous games of the franchise for you? I think franchise loyalty is a silly thing that just shouldn't exist; it brings such meaningless bitterness that helps no-one. Judge each game on its own & don't waste time on those games (of the franchise) that you dislike.

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Postby Banedon » Sep 18 2011, 8:22

I'm going with "Agree", but not for the reasons you mentioned. I have no real preference for having Azure Dragons that completely dominate every other unit, or for having non-grey Phoenixes, or that Ghouls "should" be slow-moving. I care about balanced and engrossing gameplay. I care about a game with lots of complexities and room for different builds, yet no dominating alternative. I care single-player games are difficult and present a big challenge, and I care if multi-player games are fast to play and finish.

H6 does not fulfil all these criteria, which is why I'm voting "agree". I won't lay all the blame at H6's door though; I recognized similar problems in H5. As for all these other things you point out - like the spell system - I'll just say that they are different, but not necessarily better or worse. A game in which hero turns have a major effect is different from one in which hero turns are less important (see H5 vs. H3 - in H5, hero turns have a huge effect; in H3 hero turns are, although still important, generally less vital), that is all. Strategies change, but the game can remain interesting, and that is what matters.
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Postby Mirez » Sep 18 2011, 16:59

Metathron wrote:
Mirez wrote:Can't be bothered to read wall of text. Anyways no h6 is gunna be great


I found the above deliciously ironic considering cjlee mentioned the dumbing down of the game to attract twelve year olds. :D

Anyway, good post cjlee.

If he wants to have an intelligent discussion he should've made a readable posts. Not rant like an idiot.
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Postby Pitsu » Sep 18 2011, 18:54

Mirez wrote:If he wants to have an intelligent discussion he should've made a readable posts. Not rant like an idiot.


Now that was an highly intelligent post. ;|

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Postby Bandobras Took » Sep 18 2011, 23:43

Hey, this is the post I saw for Heroes 4! And Heroes 5! And Fallout 3! And 3rd Edition D&D! And D&D 3.5! And 4th Edition D&D! And Civilization 5! And Middle Earth: The Balrog!

To summarize the wall of text:

Change=bad.
The new version of "x" has totally destroyed its spirit and flavor.
This is just a homogenous lump in the name of balance.
Balance has destroyed "x" mechanic.

No, really. You can read the exact same kinds of complaints by going to the Wizards of the Coast 4th Edition board and looking at what people were saying then. And then you can read people quoting posts about 3rd Edition from 10 years previously using the exact same speech and arguments.

Really, the OP only needs to change the numbers to make it sound like he's bashing Heroes 2 after the original Heroes (changes highlighted):

HOMM 2 has the best graphics, of course. The units are well drawn, professionally drawn. The graphics are up to the standards of modern games. But it also feels dead, sterile. It doesn’t hook me. Generic fantasy in line with what is offered elsewhere on the market. The town window in particular comes across as something you could see in Blizzard’s (. . .) Warcraft.

HOMM 2 is different from past versions. But I don’t feel that it’s creative. I don’t feel that it is compelling and replayable. The heroes seem to be fundamentally variations of each other. The factions don’t have character or identity. I am having difficulty telling apart members of the (Barbarian, Knight and Warlock) factions especially. (Why are they all the same (cartoony art)? Why are (the large units all only two hexes)?

(. . .)

For one, upper tier units are no longer so important. They no longer have character. In past heroes games, you could have a (cute purple dragon). Because there were cute purple dragons, we had challenge, excitement, storyline. Stories are most exciting if there’s a powerful enemy to defeat, or if some purple big dragon wants to find the right food to eat (do you remember any maps from Heroes 1, off the top of your head? Really? Cool.). Heroes of Might and Magic is about getting thrills from overcoming adversity, finding ways to defeat the strong with the weak, finding ways around problems, etc. You are kept in the game because the game offers ways to be interesting.

In Heroes 2, upper tier means nothing. Units have become homogenized. You just amass the numbers, and your core owns elite/ champion units with ease. Angel? Didn't even exist until Heroes 3. Pit Lord? Ditto. I personally find it odd that this fan doesn't even bother to discuss units that have been there from the beginning. In the case of Pit Lords, they've just barely made it to an appearance in 50% of the Heroes games.

Some people think lower level units shouldn’t be so weak vs upper level ones. EG you need hundreds of weak little peasants vs a single purple dragon. But units are not equal, whether in fantasy or real life. 1000 riflemen can’t kill a stealth bomber, but a stealth bomber can definitely kill 1000 riflemen. 1000 lemmings pose no threat to an elephant...

Traditionally, the way small units were equalized to big ones was they weren't in Heroes 1 or Heroes 2. Perhaps "traditionally" is too strong a claim to be making. No, wait. There's no "perhaps" about it.

(. . .)

I find it ridiculous that in Heroes 2, upper tier units are so weak and numerous. Why should crusaders and cyclopes be weak and useless? What’s the purpose of being a ‘crusader’ and going upper tier? Of course big units should be powerful, and they should be hard to come by. Their dwellings should not be easy to build. Why is it that crusader cost less to make and some dragon buildings cost $5000?

Did you know that statistically, humans are outnumbered about 10 million to 1 by ants? Do you fear ants? Yes. If a swarm of ants decided to crawl into my nostrils and block my lungs, there wouldn't be a lot I could do about it before I suffocated. Do you think you could be killed by 30 starving rats? Yes. I've never studied kung-fu, and I'm sure 30 starving rats would kick my butt in a fair fight.
(. . .)
Why should you be able to kill a champion unit with just a week’s production of core units? Because the Champion runs out of hit points, duh. Don't forget, hit points realistically measure combat ability, and you fight at full strength until you lose that last one.

In my first battle vs. Ghosts, I was shocked to discover that the Ghosts increased in number whenever they killed an enemy unit, thus beating my level 6 creatures. Ghosts are not level 6, for crying out loud! There were only "lots" of Ghosts!

Do NWChole employees know anything of popular culture? Do they know that Cyclops wears a blue X-Men suit? Sure, they got the laser shooting from his eyes right, but still . . .

Necromancers in ALL fantasy literature raise dead. Except for Tolkien, where Sauron the Necromancer relies on magic rings and good old-fashioned orcs, trolls, and ring-slaves that haven't quite managed to die yet. That’s what a Necromancer is! Where’s the amass-the-undead-slave-army strategy in Lord of the Rings? It has been homogenized so that all factions have access to the same strategies. Like build creature dwellings to buy troops. I think that's what you did in Heroes 1 and Heroes 2, anyway.

What’s the point of creating fast, strong black dragons? Is that creativity? How does that tie in with Smaug, who spent most of his time sleeping? Since it doesn’t tie in, NWChole has removed cute pink dragons from the necromancer faction. Does it really insert a point of interest? If you like parodying popular culture so much, why not give the Cyclops unit a laser beam from their eyes? Oh, wait, they did that in Heroes 2.
(. . .)
There are so many examples by which I feel NWChole doesn’t really care about the game. The developers are making this game to make money, rather than because they want to create a game they like to play and which they know many people like to play. It's true! I think Jon Van Caeghem actually wanted to make money with Heroes 2! They come across as corporate executives who don’t care about popular culture, fantasy genres, or gaming in general. Hence I keep saying there is a professional, yet impersonal, feel to this game. I feel this even more strongly than from Heroes 1 where NWC never even playtested the game. I keep feeling that the game developers were not salivating over the idea of playtesting this game themselves - they just offered the beta key to some people and sat back in their chairs, impersonally surveying the game reports.


And so it goes on, and never changes. If we hadn't lost the rpgplanet forums, you'd be seeing the same statements about Heroes IV. You can still see them about Heroes 5. And as I've mentioned, you can go find a Civilization forum and see them about Civ 5. And Civ 4. And Civ 3. And pick your edition of Dungeons and Dragons. :snore: :snore: :snore:
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby hatsforclowns » Sep 19 2011, 0:18

^ Blah, blah, blah blah, blah, blah...blah, blah blah blah...
Last edited by hatsforclowns on Sep 19 2011, 13:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Pitsu » Sep 19 2011, 6:03

While i agree that pretty much all sequels get criticized at some point, the attempt to change names is really weak.

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Postby Konfuzius » Sep 19 2011, 12:25

I agreed, not because H6 is different but because it's in my opinion not better than H5.
Somehow H5 felt a bit more dynamic and each faction (especially orcs) differed more, now everything is very generic and less side specific.

Now every faction has an own gauge (the new Bloodrage sucks and I really miss the old bloodrage sound <.<), many spells are just useless and there are no unique hero abilities for different factions anymore.

I loved to hear some of the changes like the distinction of core, elite and champion units, more magic schools or Inferno becoming a faction with though creatures, bad moral, strong direct damage spells etc. but without own troop support.

For me the result is very deflating. Ubihole changed alot but almost completely missed to improve things.

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Postby Torur » Sep 19 2011, 13:18

I in many ways still feel optimistic about HoMMVI. Alot of things are different from HV and alot of things mimic the older games, I hope the change will be worth while, when they realease the full game. The new skill tree is still the only thing I definetly dislike.

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Postby Bandobras Took » Sep 19 2011, 13:30

Pitsu wrote:While i agree that pretty much all sequels get criticized at some point, the attempt to change names is really weak.


Ah, good. Then I effectively communicated my opinion of the original post. ;)
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby Salamandre » Sep 19 2011, 16:49

The potential Wake of Gods has (probably 10% exploited until now) made me say good bye to all further sequels, no matter how good they are, they are far from having the same versatility. The graphics from H4-H6 are better still, that's the only thing I am looking at. But I will never say good bye to all Heroes games, still playing H2 sometimes. It is just genius.

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Postby Humakt » Sep 19 2011, 17:36

Bandobras Took wrote:Hey, this is the post I saw for Heroes 4! And Heroes 5! And Fallout 3! And 3rd Edition D&D! And D&D 3.5! And 4th Edition D&D! And Civilization 5! And Middle Earth: The Balrog!

And so it goes on, and never changes. If we hadn't lost the rpgplanet forums, you'd be seeing the same statements about Heroes IV. You can still see them about Heroes 5. And as I've mentioned, you can go find a Civilization forum and see them about Civ 5. And Civ 4. And Civ 3. And pick your edition of Dungeons and Dragons. :snore: :snore: :snore:


Been there, done that. You nailed this "déjà vu"- phenomenon well.

However, sometimes sequels really are screwed up (Warlords 4 comes to mind as a prime example).
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Postby MattII » Sep 19 2011, 21:01

Salamandre wrote:The potential Wake of Gods has (probably 10% exploited until now) made me say good bye to all further sequels, no matter how good they are, they are far from having the same versatility.
Then you add VCMI on top of that when it eventually gets completed.

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Postby Avonu » Sep 21 2011, 10:05

Humakt wrote:However, sometimes sequels really are screwed up (Warlords 4 comes to mind as a prime example).


Wasn't it created by Ubisoft too? :P

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Postby XEL II » Sep 21 2011, 10:52

Even so, Heroes VI isn't beng made by Ubisoft :tongue:
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Postby Pitsu » Sep 21 2011, 13:32

XEL II wrote:Even so, Heroes VI isn't beng made by Ubisoft :tongue:


Wasn't/isn't Ubi just publisher for both? And wasn't Warlords 4 developed by pretty much the same people who did the previous Warlords? So we should hope Warlords 4 quality if there would be a NWC based group of developers and Ubi is just overlooking them.

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Postby jeff » Sep 21 2011, 20:17

Pitsu wrote:
XEL II wrote:Even so, Heroes VI isn't beng made by Ubisoft :tongue:


Wasn't/isn't Ubi just publisher for both? And wasn't Warlords 4 developed by pretty much the same people who did the previous Warlords? So we should hope Warlords 4 quality if there would be a NWC based group of developers and Ubi is just overlooking them.


They were the publisher of Warlords 4, but they own Heroes, so whether they create it or not they cannot delegate responsibility for its quality. Be it a hit or a bust; it is ultimately UBI that is responsible.
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Postby Lode » Sep 25 2011, 21:02

Tl;dr, but i agree with most of them(i read begginings of paragraphs). It's just a pity, that graphics in H6 is just IDEAL - it just fits game, and i very liked it. From first look i thought maybe this game will be great(even first song that i heard in the game was taken from H2 if i'm correct)..buuut, then i played more, lol. When you play the game you just have that feeling.. that everything is just done to attract new players, forgetting about old ones. Teleport system ****' sucks, now you wont even need to leave an army in the city, and you will always play that "one super hero" tactic, its no fun. Every town can be changed to your needed..Why the **** they would do that? They are killing game variety..3 resurses? And that "feature" that you can't even take a mine without taking an outpost is ridiculous.. With town portal noone will ever take your city. ****, i registered here just for a rant, but i just can't stand this ****' **** game, they said they will be discussing what the game will be with players..yea, lol.

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Postby Calabrel » Oct 16 2011, 17:31

Now that the game -has- been released
------------------------------------------------

Great post OP. My feelings about HoMMVI were reflected in most of your points. Some of your pettier issues with the game don't matter so much to me, but within the context of your post make a lot of sense.

I'm not sure what changed between Beta and release, as I didn't play the Beta, but after playing the finished product, I didn't notice any of the OPs points invalid.

After two days, I don't really feel like playing it anymore. Homogenous is the perfect word to describe it, I played each faction, except the Inferno, and neither of them felt any different.

I don't understand the general ire this community has for HoMMV though. I felt that it was as close to HoMMIII greatness as any of the others. As a matter of fact, if HoMMV had the same user-created map database as HoMMIII did, I'd still be playing it a ton. I do see some of the points made earlier in this thread, but I felt that HoMMV had great balance.

However, this isn't the HoMMV sub-forum so I'll have to visit that.

How are your opinions holding up now that HoMMVI has actually been released? Me, I feel I wasted my money.


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