Heroic: spells

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Heroic: spells

Unread postby Groovy » 06 Sep 2011, 20:28

This topic was spawned from here.

The challenge with spells is similar to the one with town creatures – there is both a large number of spells, and a progression of sorts that causes some low-level spells to fall into disuse as more powerful ones become available.

The alternative approach that I would like to propose is built around the concept of a meta spell – a grouping of spells that share similarity of function.

Consider the following spells, for instance (schools of magic are used for illustrative purposes only):
• Resurrect Corpse (air magic)
• Consume Corpse (water magic)
• Raise Skeleton (earth magic)
• Detonate Corpse (fire magic)

They all act to dispose of a corpse, only in different ways. They can be combined into a single meta spell (Last Rites) that has different effects depending on the caster’s proficiency in each school of magic. A caster familiar with more than one school of magic will be able to choose which effect the meta spell will have in a particular instance.

Some other spells can be combined with cumulative effect. Consider spells that deal damage over an area:
• Tornado (air magic)
• Tsunami (water magic)
• Earthquake (earth magic)
• Inferno (fire magic)

A caster familiar with all four schools of magic can cast a meta spell (Force of Nature) to inflict damage over an area that delivers all of their combined effects.

Generalisations of meta spell effects can be taken advantage of to change the effects as the caster’s proficiency in magic grows. To continue with the area damage example, at the highest level of magic proficiency, instead of simply inflicting damage once-off, the spell can actually create Elemental – a boss monster that persists after the spell has been cast and continues to wrack havoc on the battlefield. Lightning bolt can evolve into chain lightning. Water walking can turn into flying. And so on.

Another way to take advantage of the vagueness of meta spells is to change their effects depending on what artefacts the hero is wearing. For example, a caster in the hero’s army might be able to summon creatures that disappear at the end of combat. If the hero happens to be wearing Orb of Permanence, however, the summoned creatures stay.

Ambiguity also lends itself to spell interaction with a variety of adventure map objects. The Visions spell, for instance, can be used to get information on an enemy hero, reveal random adventure map location, peer through a portal to see the other side, and produce many other effects, all depending on where it is used.

Meta spells can also be reused between combat and adventure map arenas. For example, Teleport (combat) and Dimension Door (adventure map) spells can be combined into a single meta spell. Meta spells that place obstacles on the combat field (quicksand, firewall) can place those same obstacles on the adventure map. And so on.

Such a diverse range of effects encourages spell casters to develop self-discipline, so that they can control which schools of magic they use and what effects they produce, perhaps even the number of spell points that they expend and thereby the power of the spells that they cast.


All this results in a design that features few spells, several times fewer than in HOMM 3-5 (my current design has 15 spells, which cover most of the effects from these games), but where each spell is multi-faceted and quite unlike any of the others. It largely eliminates the power chasm between low and high-level spells. The purpose of higher-level spells is not simply to add power to lower-level ones, but to unleash spell features not previously available. This should give the player new strategic and tactical options, hopefully without diminishing the value of the old.

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Re: Heroic: spells

Unread postby Panda Tar » 06 Sep 2011, 21:23

Goody. This brings a good way to resume and diversify at the same time. :-D
Groovy wrote: Generalisations of meta spell effects can be taken advantage of to change the effects as the caster’s proficiency in magic grows. To continue with the area damage example, at the highest level of magic proficiency, ... Lightning bolt can evolve into chain lightning. Water walking can turn into flying. And so on.
Proficiency was always something interesting to be explored. :) The more you cast a spell, the more affinity you should have to that particular magic school (and perhaps the less you'd be inclined or capable of learning a completely different spell). This synergy with the elements can improve meta casting, I believe, if you consider experience in spell casting, such as well considering that a mage that has long cast a certain spell, can even lose some synergy of it, losing also effect. It could be represented in a bar with levels - regarding proficiency as you said: CASTING RATE. If it's low (basic), average (expert) or high (master). These levels of proficiency would then evolve your spells into better spellcasting as long as you kept your proficiency at high. Having this spell interaction between adventure map and battle would help not losing proficiency when you'd run out of enemies or vice-versa. What do you think?
Ambiguity also lends itself to spell interaction with a variety of adventure map objects. The Visions spell, for instance, can be used to get information on an enemy hero, reveal random adventure map location, peer through a portal to see the other side, and produce many other effects, all depending on where it is used.
Great. ;) But now, who would be able to cast that particular spell: Visions? You haven't described much of how a spell is learned or if you would design uniqueness for factions when studying spells. How would that be in your conception?

I always thought that spells were kind of easy to learn. You would enter your town and voilá! You're a mage! Learning spells should take time, for that your hero should study them, spend days in town, making this effort to be rewarded by having a really decent spell. Faction-guided spells is a must-have, imho, however I'll wait your ideas on that issue for further discussion. :D
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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 07 Sep 2011, 06:38

Groovy, these magic ideas seem excellent and thanks for sharing. :creative:

Wouldn't Raise Corpse and Raise Skeleton only provide exclusive benefits to certain factions though, thus trying to develop/combine all of them impractical?

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Unread postby Pitsu » 07 Sep 2011, 07:05

Again i would disagree, if not with the principle, then with wording of the problem. First, spells that need more investments (higher mage guild) should be better. Second, this is not always true. Particularly in H3 where spell synergies with hero skills give them mass effect, the low level haste, slow and some others are the most crucial throughout the game. In my opinion the problem is that spells should be much more situational. Take ice and lightning bolt - the latter does more damage, thus you always pick it over the former. Artifacts or skills can modify it, so that you ice bolt does more damage, and in this case you always pick ice bolt in every battle. A very nice way to counter overuse of certain spells was in the very first Homm 1 with the limited number of casting. A similar system could be achieved by cooldowns or resource cost for spell casting. However a very simple way would also be to diversify spell target resistances. For instance lightning does +50% damage to flyers and ice bolt +25% to ground units. Or even more specifically vary immunities of all units (as in MM RPG games). By doing that the spells come much more situational and you won't be casting the same spell over and over again. It does not mean that the effect may not also be dependent on hero proficiencies or artifacts (your last rite type meta spell). Regarding cumulative spells, it would be more interesting to combine different effects (damage and curse or like prayer in H3 is a "combination" of bless, haste and whatever else). Combining 2 weaker damage spells into one, does not make it more an alternative for 1 high damage spell than ice bolt is alternative for lightning. Unless there are the situational effects/resistances IMO meta spells do not increase the variety. They may solve problem of random mage guilds (no useless spells anymore) but higher variety in spell effects and less repeative battles - not really.

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Unread postby Groovy » 07 Sep 2011, 20:40

Panda Tar wrote:Proficiency was always something interesting to be explored. :) The more you cast a spell, the more affinity you should have to that particular magic school (and perhaps the less you'd be inclined or capable of learning a completely different spell). This synergy with the elements can improve meta casting, I believe, if you consider experience in spell casting, such as well considering that a mage that has long cast a certain spell, can even lose some synergy of it, losing also effect. It could be represented in a bar with levels - regarding proficiency as you said: CASTING RATE. If it's low (basic), average (expert) or high (master). These levels of proficiency would then evolve your spells into better spellcasting as long as you kept your proficiency at high. Having this spell interaction between adventure map and battle would help not losing proficiency when you'd run out of enemies or vice-versa. What do you think?
I have incorporated a modified version of your suggestion in my description below. What do you think? ;)
Panda Tar wrote:Great. ;) But now, who would be able to cast that particular spell: Visions? You haven't described much of how a spell is learned or if you would design uniqueness for factions when studying spells. How would that be in your conception?
I see, from this and subsequent questions, that I should have added more information to the OP, including a discussion of skills. So here goes.

My design currently contains 15 spells, grouped as follows (the number in brackets indicates spell level):
• [1] Blast: deals damage to a unit
• [1] Bless: beneficially enchants a unit
• [1] Curse: harmfully enchants a unit
• [1] Dispel: removes enchantments from a unit
• [1] Visions: reveals world information
• [2] Landscaping: places obstacles on the field
• [2] Illusion: creates an illusion
• [2] Anti-magic: deals damage in response to spell casting (non-mage guild spell)
• [2] Anti-might: deals damage in response to physical attack (non-mage guild spell)
• [3] Bamboozle: confuses a unit
• [3] Last Rites: disposes of a corpse
• [3] Nullify: removes non-physical abilities from units (non-mage guild spell)
• [4] Force of Nature: inflicts damage over an area
• [4] Travel: enables unconventional means of travelling
• [5] Astra (ignore for now) (non-mage guild spell)

Casting of meta spells is governed by the following:
• Knowledge of spells (spell book)
• Mastery of schools of magic (career)
• Proficiency in spell casting (skill)
• Spell point availability (derived transient attribute)
• Spell power (primary attribute)

Spells are mostly learned from the usual places – mage guilds, magic shrines and scholar heroes. Because so few spells are available, however, I would make learning them time-consuming, as you have suggested.

There are four schools of magic in this model (though there can be others) – air, water, earth and fire. Each school is treated like a large set of spell-skills (career) that the hero attempts to master. The mastery of different schools of magic determines the effect that the spell has.

For example, the Blast spell amounts to Lightning Bolt when the hero knows air magic, Frost Bite when familiar with water magic, Implosion with earth magic and Incinerate with fire magic.

A magic hero begins with basic knowledge (level 1) of a single school of magic. This allows him to learn level 1 spells from the above list, and cast them at the lowest level of proficiency. As he gains experience with casting spells, he becomes able (by applying skill points) to increase his level of proficiency with those spells. He also gains increased overall knowledge (level 2 up to 5) of that school of magic.

For example, air magic’s version of the Blast spell, cast at the lowest level of proficiency, deal damage to a single unit. At the second level of proficiency, it becomes Chain Lightning and strikes two units. Each increase in level causes it to strike an additional unit.

The school of magic that the hero starts with is the one that is aligned with his faction. To learn other schools of magic, he has to visit towns from other factions.

To be able to cast a spell, the hero must have sufficient spell points available. The strength of the spell is determined by the hero’s spell power. With some spells, however, using more spell points will also make them more powerful – do more damage, raise more corpses, enchant for longer, and so on.

I hope that this clarifies what I’m up to with the spell model, even though I’m sure that it raises more questions.

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Unread postby Groovy » 07 Sep 2011, 20:47

mr.hackcrag wrote:Groovy, these magic ideas seem excellent and thanks for sharing. :creative:
:D
mr.hackcrag wrote:Wouldn't Raise Corpse and Raise Skeleton only provide exclusive benefits to certain factions though, thus trying to develop/combine all of them impractical?
In this case, yes. Last Rites is a non-cumulative meta spell, if for no other reason than because a corpse cannot be both resurrected and raised as a skeleton. The meta spell can still come in handy as a way to balance the game – make sure that each faction can dispose of a corpse in a way that is beneficial to them.

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Unread postby Groovy » 07 Sep 2011, 21:57

Pitsu wrote:Again i would disagree, if not with the principle, then with wording of the problem. First, spells that need more investments (higher mage guild) should be better. Second, this is not always true. Particularly in H3 where spell synergies with hero skills give them mass effect, the low level haste, slow and some others are the most crucial throughout the game. In my opinion the problem is that spells should be much more situational. Take ice and lightning bolt - the latter does more damage, thus you always pick it over the former. Artifacts or skills can modify it, so that you ice bolt does more damage, and in this case you always pick ice bolt in every battle. A very nice way to counter overuse of certain spells was in the very first Homm 1 with the limited number of casting. A similar system could be achieved by cooldowns or resource cost for spell casting. However a very simple way would also be to diversify spell target resistances. For instance lightning does +50% damage to flyers and ice bolt +25% to ground units. Or even more specifically vary immunities of all units (as in MM RPG games). By doing that the spells come much more situational and you won't be casting the same spell over and over again. It does not mean that the effect may not also be dependent on hero proficiencies or artifacts (your last rite type meta spell). Regarding cumulative spells, it would be more interesting to combine different effects (damage and curse or like prayer in H3 is a "combination" of bless, haste and whatever else). Combining 2 weaker damage spells into one, does not make it more an alternative for 1 high damage spell than ice bolt is alternative for lightning. Unless there are the situational effects/resistances IMO meta spells do not increase the variety. They may solve problem of random mage guilds (no useless spells anymore) but higher variety in spell effects and less repeative battles - not really.
I like your thoughts on this, but I don’t think that they are at odds with mine. Perhaps I should clarify a bit more. If we stick with damage-dealing spells from your examples, I have split them into two meta spells, depending on how they are targeted:
• [Level 1] Blast: targets a unit. From HOMM 3, this includes Magic Arrow, Ice Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Implosion
• [Level 4] Force of Nature: targets an area. From HOMM 3, this includes Frost Ring, Fireball, Inferno, Meteor Shower

Starting from this, I’ve added new effects to these spells to distinguish one school of magic from another.

Blast:
• Air magic: Lightning Bolt -> Chain Lightning
• Water magic: Frost Bite – in addition to dealing damage, it slows down the unit or freezes it
• Earth magic: Implosion + Poison
• Fire magic: Incinerate – in addition to dealing damage to target unit, it deals damage to other units and flammable obstacles that are in contact with it

With the Force of Nature spell, I’ve added siege capability (unique per faction; to be explored later) and the ability to summon Elemental boss monster.

This makes the Force of Nature spell more versatile and usually more desirable, but it doesn’t necessarily do more damage than the Blast spell, nor can it substitute for Blast due to the difference in their effects.

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Unread postby Panda Tar » 07 Sep 2011, 23:51

Groovy wrote: I have incorporated a modified version of your suggestion in my description below. What do you think? ;)
Seems better now, a bit more detailed. :) Some questions indeed appeared, however just one or another I'll make further down.
Groovy wrote: • [3] Bamboozle: confuses a unit
I believe the effect of confusing will limit any evolution rather than only stretching the time of effect or area. Perhaps if intead of a confusing meta spell, it could be a paralyzing, so you can leave confusion upon a cursing meta spell effect. Blind, Paralysis, Stun - are some paralyzing effects.
Groovy wrote: Casting of meta spells is governed by the following:
• Knowledge of spells (spell book)
• Mastery of schools of magic (career)
• Proficiency in spell casting (skill)
• Spell point availability (derived transient attribute)
• Spell power (primary attribute)

A magic hero begins with basic knowledge (level 1) of a single school of magic. This allows him to learn level 1 spells from the above list, and cast them at the lowest level of proficiency. As he gains experience with casting spells, he becomes able (by applying skill points) to increase his level of proficiency with those spells. He also gains increased overall knowledge (level 2 up to 5) of that school of magic.
Hum, I got a bit confused here. You have Knowledge of spells (up to 5) and Spell Power as primary attribute. How do you gain Knowledge of spells? I would take from this scheme you proposed, that you only gain another level of knowledge once you fully learned all spells from a level. Is that how it would work? Or would proficiency, mastering, of those spells be required, skill points. It's as if you must apply skill points either to your School of Magic and your Knowledge. I didn't get it.
Groovy wrote: The school of magic that the hero starts with is the one that is aligned with his faction. To learn other schools of magic, he has to visit towns from other factions.
There's this idea: Library, on adventure map. Library can provide you some unique spells, because in spite of your designing, I personally don't agree that every faction must have means to learn all those 15 things. But that's your design. :D Anyway, the Library idea I'm referring to is to settle special spells to be learned, appart from those 15 effects. Something really unique, specific. Only one Library could exist on a map and only one hero (1 hero per player) could visit the library to acquire that knowledge. But the scholars would ask something in return: your hero's knowledge on spells. So, the first hero to visit that Library would be able to learn (or buy the book, if hero was still not prepared to learn) the most powerful spell of that Library, in exchange to give notes on spells already learned, so the next visiting hero can learn a not so powerful unique spell, but can learn something from the previous hero as well. Why would it be like that? You would like to be the first to get the topmost unique spell, however that spell cannot be the best for you. Or you could risk not getting the best unique spells waiting to learn other faction spells by visiting the Library later on. To fix this Library feature to your designing, instead of previous hero spells, your hero can learn other magic school skills, dunno. :D
Groovy wrote:To be able to cast a spell, the hero must have sufficient spell points available. The strength of the spell is determined by the hero’s spell power. With some spells, however, using more spell points will also make them more powerful – do more damage, raise more corpses, enchant for longer, and so on.
What about cooldown/charging time? :)
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Unread postby Pitsu » 08 Sep 2011, 07:19

Groovy wrote: I like your thoughts on this, but I don’t think that they are at odds with mine. Perhaps I should clarify a bit more.
The odds are that, as far as i understand, you are working on improving the synergies between spells and hero development, while IMO spell and spell target synergies are the ones that need the most improvements.

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Unread postby Panda Tar » 08 Sep 2011, 12:31

Pitsu wrote:...while IMO spell and spell target synergies are the ones that need the most improvements.
:) Pitsu-san, can you create an example from a spell you'd then improve in the way you think would be nice as an improvement? :please:

Given your post above, I'd take Lightning bolt. I believe Lightning bolt should deal more damage to living beings than to undead/mechanical/spiritual/unsubstantial, for instance. The fact that a living being can die due the bolt injuries is rather higher than an already dead unit being completely taken down, imho. :D
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Unread postby Konfuzius » 08 Sep 2011, 15:22

The meta spell system is interesting, but I'm unsure if this is the thing H6 needs.
But I agree with Pitsu and his first post in this thread. I think spells should have greater difference and unique resistances for each creature would make casting more interesting too.

I would give each faction the same 5 magic schools (fire, water, earth, air, prime) but the spells differ from faction to faction and match their style of play.

Let's take Inferno for example. They get strong offense abilities, good debuffs, damage over time and other nasty spells, but lack in support powers and buffs.

For example earth magic:
- No Regeneration:
> Instead they receive Degeneration (Agony)
- No Stone Skin
> Instead Inferno get Enroot that prevents an enemy stack from moving. Only one enemy unit can be enrooted at once.
-

Furthermore I would make it more like the MM spell system in general. By casting spells of one school you earn proficiency and at a point you receive a new grade (basic> expert > master)
With every grad new spells of the school are available and already learned spells are stronger/have additional effects.

For example a Firebolt on expert decreases target's might armor and on master it has an immolation effect. These effects could vary from faction to faction too. Or you unlock new spells, so if you learned slow and are an expert/master in earth magic you get mass slow as well.

But that are only my thoughts so far.

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Unread postby mr.hackcrag » 09 Sep 2011, 06:06

Groovy wrote: • Air magic: Lightning Bolt -> Chain Lightning
• Water magic: Frost Bite – in addition to dealing damage, it slows down the unit or freezes it
• Earth magic: Implosion + Poison
• Fire magic: Incinerate – in addition to dealing damage to target unit, it deals damage to other units and flammable obstacles that are in contact with it.
Everything's nice, but maybe you could come up with different effects. Air and Fire seem too similar and I also just think you have more creativity when comparing this part with the other spell info you wrote.

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Unread postby Groovy » 09 Sep 2011, 07:04

Panda Tar wrote:I believe the effect of confusing will limit any evolution rather than only stretching the time of effect or area. Perhaps if intead of a confusing meta spell, it could be a paralyzing, so you can leave confusion upon a cursing meta spell effect. Blind, Paralysis, Stun - are some paralyzing effects.
What do you mean by the first sentence?

I placed effects like Blind, Forgetfulness, Hypnotise and Berserk in this meta spell. I can make it a part of the cursing effect, but I don’t think that they go well together. For example, why would you want to lower a unit’s stats before hypnotising it or making it go berserk?
Panda Tar wrote:Hum, I got a bit confused here. You have Knowledge of spells (up to 5) and Spell Power as primary attribute. How do you gain Knowledge of spells? I would take from this scheme you proposed, that you only gain another level of knowledge once you fully learned all spells from a level. Is that how it would work? Or would proficiency, mastering, of those spells be required, skill points. It's as if you must apply skill points either to your School of Magic and your Knowledge. I didn't get it.
Here is the process described in more detail. Please let me know if it’s sufficient.

A hero can learn new spells from the following sources:
• A Mage Guild in a town
• A Magic Shrine on the adventure map
• Another hero with the Scholar skill
• Discover them spontaneously (with the Creative skill)

A spell of level X can only be learned if the hero has reached level X in at least one school of magic. This means that a magic hero can learn level 1 spells from the outset because he starts at level 1 of the school of magic that is associated with his faction. To learn higher-level spells, he must achieve higher levels of that school of magic, or visit other factions’ towns and achieve higher levels of their schools of magic.

A hero reaches higher levels in a school of magic by casting spells that make use of the features from that school of magic. For example:
• Casting a Lightning Bolt will increase the hero’s experience with the Air School of Magic because Lightning Bolt is this school’s version of the Blast spell.
• Casting Incinerate will increase the hero’s experience with the Fire School of Magic because Incinerate is this school’s version of the Blast spell.
• Casting a Lightning Bolt and Incinerate at the same time will increase the hero’s experience with both schools of magic.

Reaching higher school of magic levels is similar to reaching higher hero levels – once the hero has accumulated enough experience with casting spells from a particular school of magic, he will reach the next level in that school.

Reaching higher levels in a school of magic has the following effects:
• It makes the hero’s spells more powerful – they last longer and do more damage.
• It makes it possible for the hero to learn higher-level spells.
• It makes it possible for the hero to upgrade the lower-level spells from that school to unlock new features.

Spell upgrades don’t happen automatically. This means that the hero can be on level 3 for the Air School of Magic, but only know how to cast level 1 & 2 spells, and only cast them at the lowest level of proficiency (i.e. Blast still a Lightning Bolt, not Chain Lightning).

Casting spells not only increases the hero’s experience with that school of magic, it also increases his experience with those spells. Once enough spell experience has been accumulated, the hero is ready to master the next level of the spell. This is done by applying the hero’s skill points (every time a hero reaches a new level, he receives skill points).

For example, say that the hero gains a new level, from being a level 4 Warlock to a level 5 Warlock. He is awarded 3 skill points at this time. He can use these skill points to improve his skills, or to upgrade his spells. He can use one of the skill points to increase his mastery of the Blast spell for the Air School of Magic from level 1 (Lightning Bolt) to level 2 (Chain Lightning that strikes one additional unit), but only if he has had enough experience with the casting of Lightning Bolt. He can use another skill point to increase his knowledge of the Blast spell for the Fire School of Magic from level 1 (Incinerate that burns target unit for one turn) to level 2 (Incinerate that burns target unit for two turns and immediately adjacent units for one turn), but only if he has had enough experience with the casting of Incinerate.

I’m sure this can be streamlined, but hopefully it’s enough to outline the general direction.
Panda Tar wrote:There's this idea: Library, on adventure map. Library can provide you some unique spells, because in spite of your designing, I personally don't agree that every faction must have means to learn all those 15 things.
If you look through the list of spells again, you will see that some of them (Anti-magic, Anti-might and Nullify) are non-mage guild spells. In other words, they don’t appear in any of the towns. Is this what you had in mind?
Panda Tar wrote:Only one Library could exist on a map and only one hero (1 hero per player) could visit the library to acquire that knowledge. But the scholars would ask something in return: your hero's knowledge on spells. So, the first hero to visit that Library would be able to learn (or buy the book, if hero was still not prepared to learn) the most powerful spell of that Library, in exchange to give notes on spells already learned, so the next visiting hero can learn a not so powerful unique spell, but can learn something from the previous hero as well. Why would it be like that? You would like to be the first to get the topmost unique spell, however that spell cannot be the best for you. Or you could risk not getting the best unique spells waiting to learn other faction spells by visiting the Library later on. To fix this Library feature to your designing, instead of previous hero spells, your hero can learn other magic school skills, dunno. :D
It sounds very interesting, though a bit tricky to wrap my mind around. For example, how does the 1-hero-per-player restriction work when the hero is defeated, perhaps even recruited by another player? What do you mean by: “You would like to be the first to get the topmost unique spell, however that spell cannot be the best for you.” What makes spells disappear from the library so that other heroes cannot learn them?
Panda Tar wrote:What about cooldown/charging time? :)
I will introduce two other game features later on that will make use of this mechanic, so I felt no need to add it to spell casting as well. I’d rather keep it as a last resort for balancing purposes.

Mana upkeep (for persistent spell effects like enchantments), on the other hand, could be a neat addition.

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Unread postby Groovy » 09 Sep 2011, 08:42

Pitsu wrote:The odds are that, as far as i understand, you are working on improving the synergies between spells and hero development, while IMO spell and spell target synergies are the ones that need the most improvements.
I’m working on both. I started the discussion by introducing meta spells for two reasons:
• They amount to a fundamental change in the spell structure. I wanted to get this out of the way before delving into the detail of specific spells.
• I haven’t spent as much time exploring the mechanics of individual spells, so I cannot present anything near a complete set. I think that this is best done in collaboration with other people anyway.

That said, I’d be more than happy to explore the synergies between spells and their targets, if you are so inclined. I think that the process can be helped by explicitly modelling racial attributes, and then cross-mapping those to different spell effects.

For example, we can introduce the following racial attributes:
• Type: elemental, mechanical, organic
• Animating force: living, undead, construct
• Constitution: air, water, earth, fire, dirt, stone, iron, wood, flesh
• Vision: light, thermal
• Movement: walking, swimming, amphibious, flying, ephemeral (can pass through objects)

We can then have spell effects like:
• Zombies cannot be poisoned because they are undead and only living units can be poisoned
• Treants cannot be raised as skeletons because only units made from flesh can be raised as skeletons
• Ogres take more damage from fire than Golems because fire affects flesh more than stone
• Dragons cannot be trapped by Quicksand because they can fly
• Covering the combat arena in smoke doesn’t affect the units with thermal vision, but it blinds the units that rely on light vision; it furthermore slows and damages flesh units because they cannot breathe

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Unread postby Groovy » 09 Sep 2011, 08:48

mr.hackcrag wrote:...I also just think you have more creativity when comparing this part with the other spell info you wrote.
If you mean that the effects of the Blast spell are more varied than the effects of the Force of Nature spell, this is because Blast is a level 1 spell, whereas Force of Nature is a level 4 spell. Level 1 spells undergo more changes on their way to level 5 than level 4 spells do.

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Qurqirish Dragon
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Unread postby Qurqirish Dragon » 09 Sep 2011, 13:25

Konfuzius wrote: Furthermore I would make it more like the MM spell system in general. By casting spells of one school you earn proficiency and at a point you receive a new grade (basic> expert > master)
With every grad new spells of the school are available and already learned spells are stronger/have additional effects.
I think you are confusing MM with Wizardry. In MM games, you had to spend skill points to improve the power of spells, and needed special trainers to advance in the schools. In Wizardry, casting spells (or using any skill, actually) had a chance to improve a skill, and your skill level directly gave access to advanced spells (note: you still had to learn the spells, most classes that could use magic would learn 1 or 2 per level)
Matthew Charlap -353 HoMM map reviews and counting...

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Panda Tar
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Unread postby Panda Tar » 09 Sep 2011, 14:08

Groovy wrote: What do you mean by the first sentence?
I took it in a general view, you see. I thought you would make Confusion as a metal spell like the confusion itself (unit will act randomly), then mass confusion, forgetfulness. I got that impression due the name Bamboozle which I couldn't related to Blind, Berserk or Hypnosis. ;)
I can make it a part of the cursing effect, but I don’t think that they go well together. For example, why would you want to lower a unit’s stats before hypnotising it or making it go berserk?
I wasn't sure where those spells where, given that you just named the beta spells. :) In truth, I was under the impression that each school would have one of those spells, not that they were evolving one into another, right? So, you'd have blind from - fire, for instance. So, the meta spell Curse/Bamboozle of the fire school spell Blind would evolve into Blind + Deaf (unit cannot hear and will become afraid of the outcome, losing also morale and luck - when spell effect breaks). That's what I understood. :D
Groovy wrote: • Discover them spontaneously (with the Creative skill)
Good one, the Creative Skill. :-D Just careful with it not to become too imba, eh?
Reaching higher levels in a school of magic has the following effects:
• It makes the hero’s spells more powerful – they last longer and do more damage.
• It makes it possible for the hero to learn higher-level spells.
• It makes it possible for the hero to upgrade the lower-level spells from that school to unlock new features.
...
This is done by applying the hero’s skill points (every time a hero reaches a new level, he receives skill points).
Ah, ok. That's what I didn't get before.
If you look through the list of spells again, you will see that some of them (Anti-magic, Anti-might and Nullify) are non-mage guild spells. In other words, they don’t appear in any of the towns. Is this what you had in mind?
Yes, somewhat like that. What I only tried to emphasize is that the Library spells could be something really unique. I particularly think that Anti-magic and Nullify, although great in effects, are not something that only one mage can learn. I'm expressing only my particular opinion now :D: I always thought that the spell Town Portal or Dimension Door were too powerful to be learned by anyone. Dimension Door would be a Library Spell in my conception, although some balance issues should be done to prevent abuse, but still keeping the real advantage of having that spell under your belt. ;)
Groovy wrote: It sounds very interesting, though a bit tricky to wrap my mind around. For example, how does the 1-hero-per-player restriction work when the hero is defeated, perhaps even recruited by another player? What do you mean by: “You would like to be the first to get the topmost unique spell, however that spell cannot be the best for you.” What makes spells disappear from the library so that other heroes cannot learn them?
Well, my fault here. It's because when I design my heroes ideas, Heroes that got defeated stayed defeated, unless revived by the player. I don't follow the idea of having a hero change sides and reappear out of the blue to be hired by someone miles away - alive. ;| But you can also take the probability of losing your main hero and having him hired by the opponent with that powerful spell as a reason even to be more careful, can you not?

The Library will sell you the book (spell) in exchange of some of your knowledge (you'll provide knowledge on other spells so they'll write spells books with your spells, randomly picked so you don't know which advantages you might be providing the next visitor). You can read the book and learn the spell if you're ready. While you're not able to learn that spell, you'll have to carry that book around with you as being a useless item, under the imminent threat of being attacked, killed and having your book stolen.

Someone might disagree with me, but I think this Library feature quite interesting to explore. :D
Groovy wrote: Mana upkeep (for persistent spell effects like enchantments), on the other hand, could be a neat addition.
Indeed.

Things are clearer now, thanks. :)

Now I shall wait for further development of these mechanics when you feel like continuing with them.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2. :panda:

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Unread postby Pitsu » 10 Sep 2011, 19:04

Panda Tar wrote: Pitsu-san, can you create an example from a spell you'd then improve in the way you think would be nice as an improvement? :please:
I thought i already answered, but cannot see it. :S Anyway, there already are some synergies like bless and curse efficiency dependency on damage range, fireshield or cowardice efficiency dependent on relative size of stacks. Unfortunately they are usually eclipsed by spells that are good to cast under any circumstances. I would not give resistances and immunities along the already existing groups like undead vs living. It would be more like efficiency of haste/slow depending on number of legs/wings :p (or HoMM1 style). There could also be creature artifacts or town/adventure structures that make the resistances more dynamic. If you want examples then like the H3 shrine of shroud, that covers an area with shroud, but it is called lithning rod and absorbs 75% of any electrical damage done in 10 tile radii. Or tasty haystack, which makes all nearby beasts (and cavaliers) immune to slow.
A hero reaches higher levels in a school of magic by casting spells that make use of the features from that school of magic. For example:
• Casting a Lightning Bolt will increase the hero’s experience with the Air School of Magic because Lightning Bolt is this school’s version of the Blast spell.
ER, i think it won't work. There are games that have the "leveling via use" system. What frequently happens is that in order to level efficiently you go to a quiet spot, put a weight on attack/cast hotkey and go away for half an hour. Once you come back, your hero is ready to proceed. If "experience via using" would be in HoMM, it would mean that using the skills as much as possible is a priority. On first day engage a battle, dodge enemy as long as possible while casting repeatedly haste on your own unit(s). Do not finish the battle until out of mana or you are waisting experience. Mana regeneration during battle or adventure map casting/wells would mean infinite experience by tedious repetive micromanagment. This system works for RPGs in virtual realism where we not only train, but also eat, sleep and do private things with our virtual self. For a strategy game i would definately not suggest this approach.

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Panda Tar
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Unread postby Panda Tar » 11 Sep 2011, 00:54

Pitsu wrote: There could also be creature artifacts or town/adventure structures that make the resistances more dynamic. If you want examples then like the H3 shrine of shroud, that covers an area with shroud, but it is called lithning rod and absorbs 75% of any electrical damage done in 10 tile radii. Or tasty haystack, which makes all nearby beasts (and cavaliers) immune to slow.
That's it. There are a plethora of things that could be done by creating a nice interaction between adventure map, spell casting and the battle itself.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2. :panda:

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Groovy
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Unread postby Groovy » 11 Sep 2011, 08:52

Konfuzius wrote:The meta spell system is interesting, but I'm unsure if this is the thing H6 needs.
Probably not. The meta spell concept should be examined in the context of my proposed minimalist design philosophy (outlined here) rather than the existing HOMM games. Without corresponding changes in other areas of the game, a more traditional approach, such as the one that you are suggesting, would be better.
Konfuzius wrote:For example a Firebolt on expert decreases target's might armor and on master it has an immolation effect. These effects could vary from faction to faction too.
I’m curious about the mechanic that you would use to implement this. Would it turn Firebolt into a meta spell (though not as abstract as what I’m suggesting) whose effect changes depending on the faction using it?


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