Breathing new life into Heroes of Might & Magic

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Panda Tar
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Postby Panda Tar » Oct 6 2011, 14:47

Torur wrote:Haha, how can a recommendation for being the Ubisoft president be a bad thing? :devious:


I missed a smiley in there. :D
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Postby klaymen » Oct 6 2011, 16:12

Panda Tar wrote:Hey, am I being stung here? Did my personal taste hurt anyone?


Not at all, good sir. It was merely a small jab aimed at Ubisoft's care for the franchise and their competent developer teams.
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Postby Panda Tar » Oct 6 2011, 22:02

Perhaps they'll feel it. ;)
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Postby wimfrits » Oct 7 2011, 6:53

Groovy wrote:If you have a look at the Heroic topic on spells, you will see that it has nothing to do with patching the H3 spell system.


Still, we removing a recognizable element from the game. Aside from that, a lot of other changes are neccesary to make things work. Changing the mana and hitpoints recovery system comes to mind. So in fact we're trying to evolve the system in numerous ways at the same time. Everything is possible, but we saw with H4 can happen when you try to change too many recognizable features at once.
Aside from that, the real problem is not fixed. Hence my preference for a 'small' change that actually solves the main flaws of the heroes series instead of changes that attempt to work around them.


I’d be more reserved about that. Consider dropping heroes, for instance. Would it still be a Heroes game, then?


Who'd buy a game with 'Heroes' on the cover that has no heroes in it?
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby Torur » Oct 7 2011, 7:48

wimfrits wrote:Who'd buy a game with 'Heroes' on the cover that has no heroes in it?

I would, but I'm a sucker for popular merchandice... :P

wimfrits wrote:Still, we removing a recognizable element from the game. Aside from that, a lot of other changes are neccesary to make things work. Changing the mana and hitpoints recovery system comes to mind. So in fact we're trying to evolve the system in numerous ways at the same time. Everything is possible, but we saw with H4 can happen when you try to change too many recognizable features at once.
Aside from that, the real problem is not fixed. Hence my preference for a 'small' change that actually solves the main flaws of the heroes series instead of changes that attempt to work around them.

I would agree with you here. I don't think there are alot of people that want huge changes to the game. But improvements on the things that we all felt where abit off.

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Postby Groovy » Oct 7 2011, 8:25

wimfrits wrote:Aside from that, the real problem is not fixed. Hence my preference for a 'small' change that actually solves the main flaws of the heroes series instead of changes that attempt to work around them.

I guess this is the crux of our disagreement. Your flaw is my core feature. :hug:

wimfrits wrote:Who'd buy a game with 'Heroes' on the cover that has no heroes in it?

I was just trying to show that there are ‘holy’ core features, even though their existence is nothing more than a matter of commonly held personal preference borne of game tradition. Other obvious examples are towns, creatures, adventure map, combat and spell casting. They wouldn’t be core features if the fans were prepared to part with them, but that’s probably too much to ask.

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Postby wimfrits » Oct 7 2011, 8:46

Groovy wrote:I guess this is the crux of our disagreement. Your flaw is my core feature. :hug:


Agreed :)

I was just trying to show that there are ‘holy’ core features, even though their existence is nothing more than a matter of commonly held personal preference borne of game tradition.


Well, a game called 'Heroes of Might and Magic' will naturally contain heroes that can act in physical and magic ways. If you replace heroes with cucumbers, the name should change accordingly.
But the way these elements are translated into game mechanics is by no means holy. As long as sufficient features are recognizable, the majority of players will consider a game a 'Heroes' game. At least that is my opinion.
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Postby Groovy » Oct 7 2011, 8:48

Torur wrote:I don't think there are alot of people that want huge changes to the game. But improvements on the things that we all felt where abit off.

I wonder about that. When I look at changes introduced by H3, two substantial revisions that stand out for me are of artefacts and spells. Artefact system was redesigned to make their placement on the hero relevant, allow the hero to drop unwanted artefacts, as well as combine them into composite artefacts. The spell system was redesigned to introduce schools of magic, which significantly contributed to the effectiveness of spells as the hero became more skilled.

Had I played H2 before H3, I don’t think it would have occurred to me that these two areas are in need of overhaul. They work just fine in H2. Yet putting them alongside their H3 equivalents, they look outdated.

Going back to your comment, I agree that most people don’t want huge changes to the game. But if they were to get huge changes that work well and preserve the feel of the game, I think they’d be glad to have them.

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Postby Groovy » Oct 7 2011, 8:50

wimfrits wrote:But the way these elements are translated into game mechanics is by no means holy. As long as sufficient features are recognizable, the majority of players will consider a game a 'Heroes' game.

Agreed.

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Postby Panda Tar » Oct 7 2011, 16:18

Groovy wrote:Going back to your comment, I agree that most people don’t want huge changes to the game. But if they were to get huge changes that work well and preserve the feel of the game, I think they’d be glad to have them.


Well, I suppose that's the main complaint about H6 right now. The changings are not keeping the feeling of the game. They just are. While some features players liked were resumed, taken. But hopefully, some stuff might return, redesigned or not.
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Postby Groovy » Oct 12 2011, 15:29

Wimfrits, how do you feel about partially implementing the H4 hero-creature interaction, where heroes are able to move around without creatures and can join other heroes’ armies, but creatures are not able to move around without heroes. It looks to me like the best of both worlds – you still get the benefits of multi-hero combat, and heroes still act as organisational units for creatures.

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Postby wimfrits » Oct 12 2011, 18:09

I was thinking the exact same thing! :-D
I think that would be a perfect solution.
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Postby overall » Oct 22 2011, 23:24

half of time i has no idea what you are talking about Groovy but you seem to thought this things lot so "Let your armies be the rocks and the trees and the birds in the sky" x)

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Postby Groovy » Oct 23 2011, 1:05

:rofl:

I'd be happy to clarify, if you like...

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Oct 23 2011, 3:18

Groovy, your other threads need an update. Your great ideas about what a HoMM game could be are being overrun by sad realities of H6. :drama:

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Postby Groovy » Oct 23 2011, 13:30

What kind of update?

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Oct 24 2011, 1:35

Well, maybe a final revision of your concepts or master document of some sort, but if it is time consuming or difficult, don't worry about it. :)

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Postby Soronarr » Oct 24 2011, 10:52

Panda Tar wrote:For a real improvement imho, a mix between town/creatures and some skills from H3 mixed to H4 hero development, and some skill schemes from H5. Blend everything and then...and then something would be born. :|


add the town/faction aesthetics/design from H2 with some sprinlke of H3.
Drop trying to pick up every culture fro mevery time period and dump it into a big pot. Stick with something. Stick with the western/Nordic mythology feel.

Drop the samurai naga. Drop the indian elves. Drop the arabian mages.

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Postby klaymen » Oct 24 2011, 11:17

I think that even if someone would put all the "best" things (from his PoV) into one game, even then people would whinr and moan that <feature1> is poorly implemented, <feature2> is superfluously complex and could be done in a more simple and efficient way, or that <feature3> is just plain missing.

Also, all the good things together do not guarantee success. We have tale about Doggie and Kitty, where they wanted to make a cake together. Everyone added what he liked - Doggie added bones or sweets, Kitty added milk or a fish and you can imagine the outcome...(no, they didn't die, they just had stomach ache - it is a story for kids, after all).
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Postby Soronarr » Oct 24 2011, 13:23

you cna never satisfy everyone - you shouldn't even try.

You can however, analyze your work, see what works, and why.


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