Isabel and Sheogh (spoilers)

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Isabel and Sheogh (spoilers)

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 26 2011, 19:43

I've just finished the Hammers of Fate campaign. Pretty anti-climatic really, ended up fighting a pretty hard battle at the end of the second week which turned out to be the end battle and I didn't even know.

Anyhow, the real Isabel is replaced by Biara and Zehir, Finden, Godric and Realag leave Sheolg with well the fake Isabel. The real Isabel I vaguely remember ends up wandering around in Sheolg. Then she turns up in Realag's secret sanctum with Realag.

Raelag is 'missing' at the beginning of the first mission which inspires the Scarsouls to rebel. But when Ylaya rescued Realag from his secret sanctum he turns up with Isabel.

But presumably Raelag went back to Ashan like all the other heroes after rescuing Isabel. What happened, did Realag somehow figure out that the new Isabel was an imposter after returning to Ashan and then go BACK to Sheolg to rescue an Isabel who somehow managed to survive (alone?) in the middle of demonland.

And why did Ylaya have to break into his sanctuary, was he hiding from the Scarsouls or something. And why the secrecy about his mission, was he ashamed or something?
Last edited by Slayer of Cliffracers on May 29 2011, 19:26, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Isabel and Sheolg (spoilers)

Postby Angelspit » May 26 2011, 20:01

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:And why the secrecy about his mission, was he ashamed or something?

That was the voice actor having second thoughts about this contract.
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Postby cjlee » May 27 2011, 20:02

my friend, Nival created more holes in the storyline than there are in your average fisherman's net.

This was one of the worst ever computer game stories. Not only did they not hire a professional writer (unlike Blizzard), they didn't even hire people who could get the English right.

I would have been happy to write a superior story than this for the price of a free Heroes V CD. Hell, there are at least 20 people in the heroes community who have a proven ability to create and maintain excellent storylines over multi-map campaigns that have immense popularity. Timothy Duncan, Charley Watkins, jeff... Ubisoft should have swallowed its pride and invited the top heroes mapmakers to create the storyline.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 27 2011, 22:30

angelspit wrote:That was the voice actor having second thoughts about this contract.


:D :D :D Quite likely.

cjlee wrote:my friend, Nival created more holes in the storyline than there are in your average fisherman's net.

This was one of the worst ever computer game stories. Not only did they not hire a professional writer (unlike Blizzard), they didn't even hire people who could get the English right.

I would have been happy to write a superior story than this for the price of a free Heroes V CD. Hell, there are at least 20 people in the heroes community who have a proven ability to create and maintain excellent storylines over multi-map campaigns that have immense popularity. Timothy Duncan, Charley Watkins, jeff... Ubisoft should have swallowed its pride and invited the top heroes mapmakers to create the storyline.


Well I wouldn't say that there's anything wrong with the storyline of the original campaign. It was pretty imaginative and didn't have any major plotholes to speak of but probably only because of it's basically linear plotline, everything leads up to the final confronation with Kha-Baleth.

The Hammers of Fate storyline has problems because it is a rather complicated plot yet has a suprisingly few missions. This mostly has to do with cost-cutting, Hammers of Fate is basically a rushed prequel to Tribes of the East, designed to make money for Ubisoft with minimum effort on their part.

The key event (the emergance of the true Isabel) becomes distinctly forced due to the lack of any part of the campaign that explains the background to this event. There should really have been a fourth campaign dealing with Realag and how he figured out that Isabel was an imposter for instance.
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Postby Corlagon » May 27 2011, 23:06

This was one of the worst ever computer game stories. Not only did they not hire a professional writer (unlike Blizzard), they didn't even hire people who could get the English right.


Actually, they did hire three professional writers who were all native English speakers, which is what makes the entire H5 enterprise an even more baffling failure storywise.

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Postby Mlai » May 28 2011, 14:03

I do have to admit that I too was baffled by the real-fake Isabel storyline. However, I didn't really care because I was

(1) too bleary-eyed from playing the game for days straight.
(2) laughing too hard from the hilariously bad screenplay that would have made Ed Wood proud.

When Raelag was slowly walking into the mist, and the other characters were just staring after him like dumb statues, and there was this dead airtime/ radio silence for about half a minute... the unintentional comedic timing was just sublime. :D

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 28 2011, 15:04

Corlagon wrote:
This was one of the worst ever computer game stories. Not only did they not hire a professional writer (unlike Blizzard), they didn't even hire people who could get the English right.


Actually, they did hire three professional writers who were all native English speakers, which is what makes the entire H5 enterprise an even more baffling failure storywise.


I think you'll find that the solution to the problem lies in the word hired . They're just lazily putting together stuff because they knows that they get paid whatever they put together. While with the old Might and Magic/Heroes games we had Jan van Caneghem who had a greater investment in the storyline (as it's initial creator).

That said there is no real problem with the first story (the initial Heroes V one). But after that the whole series sort of goes into well storyline crash. The reason I think is that well Ubisoft is being well lazy. They become fixated upon the final ending to the original quite decent story and never really progress beyond that point.

Biara manages to trick everyone into believing that she is Isabel and the heroes manage to get away from Sheogh with her in tow. That is the whole of the last two campaigns summarised in a sentance.

This is made worse by the fact that Hammers of Fate at least is entirely threadbare and obviously rushed (why else would they get rid of replays?). Thus the story ends up depending upon major sequences of off-screen events, which pretty much amount to needing an entire campaign to explain away.

They were however far too lazy or rushed to make said campaigns leaving plot advancement in a major pickle. Obviously Realag carries out the impressive feat of figuring out that Isabel is an imposter (a tricky task given that Biara-Isabel simply behaves like a stronger version of the real thing!) and another impressive feat of rescuing her from Sheolg but they leave the whole sequence of events to speculation.
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Postby Corlagon » May 28 2011, 15:38

Sheogh, not Sheolg dammit

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Postby Avonu » May 28 2011, 15:41

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Obviously Realag carries out the impressive feat of figuring out that Isabel is an imposter (a tricky task given that Biara-Isabel simply behaves like a stronger version of the real thing!) and another impressive feat of rescuing her from Sheolg but they leave the whole sequence of events to speculation.


SheoGH not Sheol

Here's something you missed:
HV lore wrote:King Alexei's soul is stolen and in 971 YSD its power is used to bring a succubus to Ashan; a succubus named Biara who arrives at a moment when she can take the place of the true Isabel. The real queen remains lost in the wastes of Sheogh with her protector, Raelag...

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Postby Koni » May 29 2011, 8:46

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: Realag


And Raelag, not Realag

His name is made up of the syllables of the hero Ag - rael !!

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 29 2011, 19:36

Avonu wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Obviously Realag carries out the impressive feat of figuring out that Isabel is an imposter (a tricky task given that Biara-Isabel simply behaves like a stronger version of the real thing!) and another impressive feat of rescuing her from Sheolg but they leave the whole sequence of events to speculation.


SheoGH not Sheol

Here's something you missed:
HV lore wrote:King Alexei's soul is stolen and in 971 YSD its power is used to bring a succubus to Ashan; a succubus named Biara who arrives at a moment when she can take the place of the true Isabel. The real queen remains lost in the wastes of Sheogh with her protector, Raelag...


What's the source for that lore?

I didn't miss anything Avonu, that is what I am reffering to. Given that Biara manages to trick everyone into believing that she is Isabel, what is the story about how Realag figures out that the Isabel is a fake and how does he find her and eventually get back to Ashan?

That this story is not told kind of leaves a massive gaping plothole in the story.
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Postby Avonu » Jun 2 2011, 20:43

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:I didn't miss anything Avonu


Oh, you did. You even don't relize how much lore you missed. HV is not only source of Ashan. Not at all.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 4 2011, 20:30

Avonu wrote:Oh, you did. You even don't relize how much lore you missed. HV is not only source of Ashan. Not at all.


Well the sources as I'm aware of it are.

Heroes V
Dark Messiah
Heroes VI (not yet made).
Some playstation game I can't remember the name of(I think).

I take it you are reffering to Dark Messiah, which brings the question, the stuff about Isabel and Realag being in Sheolg is not news to me, that is what the post is about.

Does Dark Messiah deal with the details of Isabel in Sheolg, is that what I am noticing, cross-over between games?
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Postby Avonu » Jun 5 2011, 14:30

How hard is to remember name of demon prison or Agrael true name or even check them in previous posts?

Besides HoMMV, DMoMM, CoH and HoMMVI you have also newsletters, interviews and information from official game sites... and all of them was posted on this forum or in CH HV site.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 5 2011, 14:56

Avonu wrote:How hard is to remember name of demon prison or Agrael true name or even check them in previous posts?

Besides HoMMV, DMoMM, CoH and HoMMVI you have also newsletters, interviews and information from official game sites... and all of them was posted on this forum or in CH HV site.


I made minor spelling errors involving like 2 letters, hardely the same as forgetting the name of something!

Now do you actually have something to contribute rather than telling me stuff which I obviously already know because that is the whole topic of the thread and then refusing to source said stuff.
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Postby Avonu » Jun 5 2011, 15:02

Patience

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Postby Corlagon » Jun 5 2011, 17:02

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Now do you actually have something to contribute rather than telling me stuff which I obviously already know because that is the whole topic of the thread and then refusing to source said stuff.


I would say it is a reasonable contribution to imply you would be wise to go and learn the lore of the games - or at least the correct spelling for the terms belonging to it - before deciding to copiously post theories about it everywhere.

If you haven't played a game in the series I will be happy to tell you about its plot. But you need to be clear that you haven't played it and are ignorant of the storyline instead of insisting you are right.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 6 2011, 11:03

Corlagon wrote:I would say it is a reasonable contribution to imply you would be wise to go and learn the lore of the games - or at least the correct spelling for the terms belonging to it - before deciding to copiously post theories about it everywhere.

If you haven't played a game in the series I will be happy to tell you about its plot. But you need to be clear that you haven't played it and are ignorant of the storyline instead of insisting you are right.


I would say that it would be reasonable to actually read the OP before claiming that I haven't played the games and are ignorant of the storyline Corlagon.

The issue is that there appears to be a massive plot-hole related to the question of how Realag ended up with Isabel in Sheogh, what I was asking is simply whether the plot-hole is just that or whether there is any lore in other games which go into more detail about the subject of Raelag and Isabel in Sheogh.

I figured it would be better to find out if the issue is addressed in can
on before copiously writing theories. I seems that wasn't a good idea from the response I got.
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Postby Corlagon » Jun 6 2011, 11:33

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:I would say that it would be reasonable to actually read the OP before claiming that I haven't played the games and are ignorant of the storyline Corlagon.


Slayer of Cliffracers in the OP you say you haven't played all of the games but then some posts later proceed to say "I haven't missed anything". Then you show you're unsure which games are in Ashan but subsequently attack Avonu for correcting you on what you "obviously already know". You apparently have missed something since your massive plothole is dealt with in two interviews. So it's unclear to me: do you know everything or not? :P

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 6 2011, 12:20

Corlagon wrote:Slayer of Cliffracers in the OP you say you haven't played all of the games but then some posts later proceed to say "I haven't missed anything". Then you show you're unsure which games are in Ashan but subsequently attack Avonu for correcting you on what you "obviously already know". You apparently have missed something since your massive plothole is dealt with in two interviews. So it's unclear to me: do you know everything or not? :P


I am not unsure about which games are set in Ashan, I am unsure about how many games there even are, including the playstation spinoffs.

I know the basic plotline of the Isabel in Sheogh, that Biara pretends to be Isabel and that the real Isabel is lost in the 'wastes of Sheogh' with 'her protector' Raelag. The problem is that so many details are left unexplained that it the episode is an effective plothole. Realag just 'turns up' in Sheogh to rescue Isabel and they 'just appear' in the sanctum that Ylaya is sent off to find.

I didn't set out to attack Avonu; Avonu added something that I had already mentioned I knew as if I didn't already know it and I'm not very forgiving towards Avonu at the moment for getting dragged into the Anti-Slayer crowd.
I already knew the part about Isabel being in Sheogh with Realag, if I didn't know that I wouldn't have written the OP in the first place. So Avonu writing a post to inform me about what I obviously already know as if I'd missed it is pretty insulting.

There seems to be lots of theorising to be done about the details of just how it happened; I am just trying to find out what people know from other sources about the details of how the following things happened.

1. How did Realag end up with Isabel in Sheogh rather than being back in Ashan with Findan, Zehir and Godric.
2. How did they manage to survive in Sheogh?
3. How come Realag ends up stuck in his sanctum and has to be rescued by Zelaya.

You mention interviews, what interviews are you reffering to and what do they say about the subject.
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