Discussion of Ashan history

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby Qurqirish Dragon » May 10 2011, 13:24

Avonu wrote:Another Slayer's Humorous Argumentation. ;P

BTW - why do you think that Asha should be Guardian and not Urgash?
He could easy be this planet Guardian, protecting it from "inviding Army" of Asha - destroy "inviders" first, restore planet ecosystem later.. :D


Well, if the Uncontrolled Reality Gutting And Slashing Hypermode was in control, things may not be as nice :devious:
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 10 2011, 13:43

XEL II wrote:That would be rather insulting to the Ancients =\


Not if Asha created the Ancients. That's the problem with the 'aliens did it' explanation, who made the aliens?

XEL II wrote:Official Ubisoft timeline also believes so, and it was written from the perspective of the writers, not Ashan inhabitants.


The timeline is already revealed to be wrong about necromancy being invented by Belketh. :) :) :)

XEL II wrote:There are enough instances of Dragon Gods' actions to prove that they exist.


No it proves that gods exist that the local inhabitents worship in the form of dragons and call certain names (Elrath, Asha etc). These gods understanding that any mortal understanding of them will be constrained within mortal intellectual limits see no reason (at the moment) to disturb this conception.

There is no reason to believe that the very same gods aren't operative in Axeoth or Enroth. Indeed consider how well it all fits together.

Asha: Creator of the Ancients, ruler of material reality. This is why Ashan is called ASHAN, the world Ashan reffers not so much to a specific world but to material reality itself.
Urgash: (Arch?)creator of the Creators, masters of Sheogh/Fiery Realm and creators of the Kreegans/Demons.
Elrath: Creator of the Angels, masters of the the Realm of Glory.
Malassa: Master of the Plane of Death and creator of Faceless.
Arkath: Master of the Plane of Fire and creator of the Fire Elementals.
Sylanna: Master of the Plane of Earth and creator of the Earth Elementals.
Shalassa: Master of the Plane of Water and creator of the Water Elementals.
Sylath: Master of the Plane of Air and creator of the Air Elementals.
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Postby Avonu » May 10 2011, 15:53

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:Well, if the Uncontrolled Reality Gutting And Slashing Hypermode was in control, things may not be as nice :devious:


Who knows? What we know about Urgash and his m.o.? Everything what we know is from Asha and her creations (including 7 Dragon Gods) - and we think she "told" story about her twin brother objectively, but what if she not?
IIRC Urgash sleep in planet core, so even demons don't speak with him... and maybe they interpreted Urgash's motives wrong?

Of course we all know he is pure eviiiiil but it is nice to thinks opposite way sometimes. ;)

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The timeline is already revealed to be wrong about necromancy being invented by Belketh. :) :) :)

I think you are only one who think that. :P

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Asha: Creator of the Ancients, ruler of material reality. This is why Ashan is called ASHAN, the world Ashan reffers not so much to a specific world but to material reality itself.
Urgash: (Arch?)creator of the Creators, masters of Sheogh/Fiery Realm and creators of the Kreegans/Demons.
Elrath: Creator of the Angels, masters of the the Realm of Glory.
Malassa: Master of the Plane of Death and creator of Faceless.
Arkath: Master of the Plane of Fire and creator of the Fire Elementals.
Sylanna: Master of the Plane of Earth and creator of the Earth Elementals.
Shalassa: Master of the Plane of Water and creator of the Water Elementals.
Sylath: Master of the Plane of Air and creator of the Air Elementals.

Maybe I am wrong (because of HV lore :P) but didn't Asha create all these races not Elemental Dragons?

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Postby XEL II » May 11 2011, 5:29

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:Fine, you won't take a joke for what it is

Sorry, but I just didn't find anyhting funny about that joke.
Qurqirish Dragon wrote:I DO know that the acronyms were technical

That's nice.
Qurqirish Dragon wrote:A.S.H.A.: Alternative Symbiotic Habitat Actuator.
The world is is designed to calibrate (thus an Actuator), a new (Alternative) environment (Habitat), designed around the connection between the creatures and thier "dragon gods" in a Symbiotic manner.

Good idea, I must say.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby XEL II » May 11 2011, 5:30

Avonu wrote:Who knows? What we know about Urgash and his m.o.? Everything what we know is from Asha and her creations (including 7 Dragon Gods) - and we think she "told" story about her twin brother objectively, but what if she not?

The pehistpry is told from the perspective of the storywriters, not Asha. so it's rather objective.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby XEL II » May 11 2011, 5:34

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Not if Asha created the Ancients.

That would be most insulting.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:That's the problem with the 'aliens did it' explanation, who made the aliens?

Just to you, I suppose. There is this great thing called evolution.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » May 11 2011, 6:11

XEL II wrote:The pehistpry is told from the perspective of the storywriters, not Asha. so it's rather objective.


Actually HV story is told by perspective of its characters, same for DM. Most of CoH story too.
And timeline writer (from which we have the most important info) could be some Ashan scholar. There is no solid proof that he was objective writer.
For the other hand, I wish to read History of Ashan wrote by Urgash follower - it probably will be more funny then "Asha uses all". :D

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 11 2011, 13:19

Avonu wrote:I think you are only one who think that. :P

Perhaps I am, but it doesn't mean I'm not right does it?

http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Nec ... r_%28H5%29

Read this manuscript carefully and note this particular passage about Belketh.

At a critical moment he uncovered an ancient manuscript; it was a part of the writings of Sar-Elam collectively known as the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon. This particular chapter spoke of Necromancy, the power of the immortal soul, and the aspect of Asha that was least-known and least-worshipped.


Contrast that to the timeline's version of events.

461 YSD.
Discovery of Necromancy

Belketh, a disciple of Sar-Shazzar, discovers the path of Necromancy. Necromantic experimentations begin in the Seven Cities.


Belketh did not discover necromancy as the timeline says, instead he merely discovered a document by Sar-Elam himself which taught him Sar-Elam's knowledge OF Necromancy. From where did Sar-Elam learn Necromancy? What teaches Necromancy as a minor part of it's magical teachings: The Heroes IV Order faction.

The plot thickens even more, this is 461, a long time after Sar Elam. So what happened to his necromatic teachings during all that time? It gets more suspicious.
74 YSD.
Mysterious Death of Sar-Shazzar
Sar-Shazzar dies in his sleep. When attendants attempt to move his body to the Necropolis for preparation and burial, it crumbles to ashes.


Humans when they die do not crumble to ashes. However vampires do. If Sar-Shazzar was a vampire it is quite clear that *he* was a necromancer, the bearer of Sar-Elam's necromatic legacy. His death is a mystery, meaning that it is likely that he was murdered.

Now look backwards a bit earlier.
62 YSD.
The Schism of the Seven
A schism (division) occurs within the disciples of Sar-Elam, who can’t agree on the best way to follow the road laid down by the Seventh Dragon. Sar-Antor founds the Blind Brothers, a congregation of healers, seers and embalmers dedicated to the worship of Asha. Sar-Badon founds the Dragon Knights, a martial order disciplined in both body and mind.
Schism between the disciples of Sar-Elam, who can’t agree on the best way to follow the road laid down by the Seventh Dragon and, hopefully someday surpass him.
The other disciples, led by Sar-Shazzar, the most gifted of them all, leads an exodus of wizards and like-minded humans to found the Seven Cities (the first kingdom of Magic) in the southern deserts.


Sar-Issus who founded the Wizard Faction WAS a Vampire. Who killed him and suppressed Necromancy editing it out of Sar-Elam's legacy so that it had to be re-discovered by Belketh? The Heroes IV order faction not only teaches death magic, but also it's opposite life magic and the blind-brothers are described as HEALERS.
Sar-Antor killed Sar-Issus and his followers the blind brothers eradicated necromancy from the Seven Cities which he founded.

The wizards then falsified their entire history in order to establish that Sar-Issus was 'pure' of the taint of necromancy and was not a vampire. They obviously did this because it made them 'look better' given their brutal purge of the necromancers, because they could then claim that they were a deviation from the 'pure' magic of Sar-Issus by a twisted and sick deviant not an interal part of the magical teaching of Sar-Elam.

As they purge the necromancers, they also destroy their own past, thus they can never live in peace with necromancy and will go to ridiculous lengths to eradicate it. The reason is that as long as a single necromancer survives their 'historical truth' will be called into question. If they wipe out all the necromancers then the lie upon which they built their history is secured forever. Necromancy was an integral part of Sar-Elam's teaching, was first purged by the blind-brothers and then was purged again when Belketh found out about the first time round.

Considering the wizards have evidently falsified pretty much their entire history to make themselves look better, doesn't that also call into question their claims to have created the beastmen and the orcs? The former is extremely implausible afterall.

What if the reality is far darker than the timeline says. What if they used their magic to enslave entire races and then irrevocably tainted one of them (the orcs) with demon-blood. Would not that reality be 'touched up'?

Avonu wrote:Maybe I am wrong (because of HV lore :P) but didn't Asha create all these races not Elemental Dragons?


Unknown.

Creation of the Elder Races
The “Elder” mortal races are created as servants of the Elemental Dragons.


The mortal races were created to serve the Elemental Dragons but it doesn't say who by. It does say that Asha created the Elemental Dragons though.
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Postby Avonu » May 12 2011, 10:49

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
Avonu wrote:I think you are only one who think that. :P

Perhaps I am, but it doesn't mean I'm not right does it?

Yes, it does. :P


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Read this manuscript carefully and note this particular passage about Belketh.

Again?
If I must...

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Belketh did not discover necromancy as the timeline says, instead he merely discovered a document by Sar-Elam himself which taught him Sar-Elam's knowledge OF Necromancy. From where did Sar-Elam learn Necromancy? What teaches Necromancy as a minor part of it's magical teachings: The Heroes IV Order faction.

Wrong. Not in that universe.
(k)Ashan lore wrote:0 YSD: The Revelation of the Seventh Dragon
Sar-Elam the first wizard reaches the conscience of the Dragon of Order who teaches him on the nature of matter and spirit and shows him the higher path of power.

They are the Wizards, who worship no dragon (or all, depending on your point of view) and strive rather to pierce the fundamental mysteries of the powers and mechanics that govern their world. They studied and experimented tirelessly (and still do), seeking mastery of the rules that Asha laid down when she created the world (or the limits that an even higher authority placed upon her when she did her works, but that debate shall doubtless go on until the fading of the sun).

The first and mightiest of these Wizards, Sar-Elam, gained such an astounding depth of knowledge, and such an abiding love for the works of Asha, that he ascended into the sphere of the Dragon-Gods, becoming himself the "Seventh Dragon."

As with many things that concern magic, necromancy began as part of the legacy of Sar-Elam, the great wizard who became the Seventh Dragon


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The plot thickens even more, this is 461, a long time after Sar Elam. So what happened to his necromatic teachings during all that time? It gets more suspicious.
74 YSD.
Mysterious Death of Sar-Shazzar
Sar-Shazzar dies in his sleep. When attendants attempt to move his body to the Necropolis for preparation and burial, it crumbles to ashes.


Humans when they die do not crumble to ashes. However vampires do. If Sar-Shazzar was a vampire it is quite clear that *he* was a necromancer, the bearer of Sar-Elam's necromatic legacy. His death is a mystery, meaning that it is likely that he was murdered.

Humans also can crumple to ashes - especially mages, if their magic energy consume them (this is fantasy worlds "law" after all :P).
But in this case...
(k)Ashan lore wrote:Sar-Elam was betrayed, however, by one of his students. Corrupted by Demons, Sar-Shazzar deliberatery sabotaged the ritual.

Sar-Shazzar (master of Belketh) was demon follower.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Sar-Issus who founded the Wizard Faction WAS a Vampire.

See above.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Who killed him and suppressed Necromancy editing it out of Sar-Elam's legacy so that it had to be re-discovered by Belketh?

Nope. Sar-Elam sacrifice himself to craete Sheogh. Sar-Shazzar use his powers to create a tiny flaw in this proson, so demons could escape during Eclipse times.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Sar-Antor killed Sar-Issus and his followers the blind brothers eradicated necromancy from the Seven Cities which he founded.

Blind Brothers became secret order not Seven Cities citizents. They left Sar-Shazzar and his mages from Seven Cities, so how they could live under one roof with someone with they disagree?
Besides Sar-Issus and Sar-Shazzar are not the same people.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:As they purge the necromancers, they also destroy their own past

When and where is that written? :P

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:thus they can never live in peace with necromancy and will go to ridiculous lengths to eradicate it.

Necromacers belive in reincarnation. When they die, they will be reborn (that what they belive) in new body/form by Asha herself. That is why Giovanni or Markal didn't defend themselves when they faced death by enemies (and only said that stupid "Asha use all" sentence).

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Necromancy was an integral part of Sar-Elam's teaching, was first purged by the blind-brothers and then was purged again when Belketh found out about the first time round.

Necromancy is misunderstanding of Sar-Elam's teaching about Asha three faces. Even some necromacers belive that they don't know true meaning of Seventh Dragon's teaching.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Considering the wizards have evidently falsified pretty much their entire history to make themselves look better

When and where they did that?
You are just saying words without NOTHING to proof them.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The mortal races were created to serve the Elemental Dragons but it doesn't say who by. It does say that Asha created the Elemental Dragons though.


Yes it is:
(k)Ashan lore wrote:Asha created six dragons that tend the physical plane of existence. Each of them is tied to an aspect or element (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water as well as Light and Dark), and each of them created races in their own image to cultivate Ashan and worship their creators.

But in other place is said that Asha herself created those race to serve her Dragon Children. That why I said I can be wrong.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 12 2011, 17:23

Avonu wrote:Humans also can crumple to ashes - especially mages, if their magic energy consume them (this is fantasy worlds "law" after all :P).
But in this case...


If it were normal for magic users in Ashan to crumble to ashes when they die thenwhy is it noted as happening? That it is noted as happening is something unusual, a mystery that the wizards cannot explain.

Given we know that Necromancy was part of the teachings of Sar-Elam- the most plausible explanation was that Sar-Shazzar was a vampire explaining why he crumbled to ashes.

Avonu wrote:Nope. Sar-Elam sacrifice himself to craete Sheogh. Sar-Shazzar use his powers to create a tiny flaw in this proson, so demons could escape during Eclipse times.


Sar-Elam used his powers to drive the demons back into Sheogh, Sar-Elam didn't create Sheogh though. Asha originally trapped Urgash and the demons in Sheogh. Again it never actually says that either of them created Sheogh.

Shar-Shazzar created the wizard faction (the Seven Cities), he is their founder. Where in the timeline is the bit about him being a demon cultist and weakening the demon's prison?

Where did you get that from?

Avonu wrote:Blind Brothers became secret order not Seven Cities citizents. They left Sar-Shazzar and his mages from Seven Cities, so how they could live under one roof with someone with they disagree?
Besides Sar-Issus and Sar-Shazzar are not the same people.


Yes they aren't the person, Sar-Issus doesn't appear in the timeline either. Who is he anyway I would ask? The wizards hold him in high esteem but what's his relationship to Sar-Elam and Sar-Shazzar?

Yes the blind brothers can operate quite happily in the Silver Cities. They are not a SECRET order for nothing are they? Since when did people living in the same society have to agree with eachother? That is not normally the case in real life is it?

One way or another the necromancers were wiped out and necromancy was purged from the

Avonu wrote:When and where is that written? :P

It's all in here.

At a critical moment he uncovered an ancient manuscript; it was a part of the writings of Sar-Elam collectively known as the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon. This particular chapter spoke of Necromancy, the power of the immortal soul, and the aspect of Asha that was least-known and least-worshipped.


Belketh UNCOVERED something! What he uncovered was part of the writings of Sar-Elam which the wizards ultimately trace their knowledge back to. What he uncovered was an ancient document, which means that it is something from a long time ago.

You do not have to uncover something that isn't covered up do you? The wizards clear as clarity suppressed these teachings; edited them out of the teaching.

And the document that was suppressed speaks of necromancy alongside the religious/philosophical stuff. That is to say the knowledge that the wizards purged from Sar-Elam's teachings was the bit that taught people about necromancy. Spoke of has to be understood that way else why would it be suppressed rather than venerated?

Avonu wrote:Necromacers belive in reincarnation. When they die, they will be reborn (that what they belive) in new body/form by Asha herself. That is why Giovanni or Markal didn't defend themselves when they faced death by enemies (and only said that stupid "Asha use all" sentence).


The wizards don't believe the necromancers are reincarnated so I fail to see how that's relevent. We are talking about the wizards motives to destroy necromancers not the necromancers beliefs.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Necromancy is misunderstanding of Sar-Elam's teaching about Asha three faces. Even some necromacers belive that they don't know true meaning of Seventh Dragon's teaching.


But the only reason the teaching is known at all is that Belketh discovered the teaching like 400 years after Sar-Elam. It isn't a misunderstanding of anything- it is a key part of the teaching itself.

This is why the wizards suppressed it.

Avonu wrote:When and where they did that?
You are just saying words without NOTHING to proof them.


I have this entire document to prove what I am saying right. http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Nec ... r_%28H5%29

This source says that Belketh uncovered an ancient document from Sar-Elam. This document taught him necromancy and is thus the core basis for Necromancer civilization and their religion/philosophy.

The timeline instead says that Belketh discovers the path of necromancy.
461 YSD.
Discovery of Necromancy
Belketh, a disciple of Sar-Shazzar, discovers the path of Necromancy. Necromantic experimentations begin in the Seven Cities.


Sar Elam is described as the first wizard in the timeline. But remember that Sar-Elam spoke of necromancy in the lost part of the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon, this means that Belketh CANNOT have discovered Necromancy because Sar-Elam at the very least mentioned it in the Revelations.

This evidently means that the wizards have falsified their history by claiming that Belketh simply discovered necromancy when in fact he learned about necromancy from a part of Sar-Elam's teachings which the wizards had suppressed.

This means that Sar-Elam was not only the first wizard but also the first necromancer. The wizards destroyed all evidence to the latter, falsifying their history to make themselves and their case look better.

And if they are capable of suppressing a key part of Sar-Elam's teachings, what else have they suppressed?

Slayer of Cliffracer wrote:But in other place is said that Asha herself created those race to serve her Dragon Children. That why I said I can be wrong.


There isn't a wrong or right here. It's all religious mythology.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 12 2011, 17:24

Avonu wrote:Humans also can crumple to ashes - especially mages, if their magic energy consume them (this is fantasy worlds "law" after all :P).
But in this case...


If it were normal for magic users in Ashan to crumble to ashes when they die thenwhy is it noted as happening? That it is noted as happening is something unusual, a mystery that the wizards cannot explain.

Given we know that Necromancy was part of the teachings of Sar-Elam- the most plausible explanation was that Sar-Shazzar was a vampire explaining why he crumbled to ashes.

Avonu wrote:Nope. Sar-Elam sacrifice himself to craete Sheogh. Sar-Shazzar use his powers to create a tiny flaw in this proson, so demons could escape during Eclipse times.


Sar-Elam used his powers to drive the demons back into Sheogh, Sar-Elam didn't create Sheogh though. Asha originally trapped Urgash and the demons in Sheogh. Again it never actually says that either of them created Sheogh.

Shar-Shazzar created the wizard faction (the Seven Cities), he is their founder. Where in the timeline is the bit about him being a demon cultist and weakening the demon's prison?

Where did you get that from?

Avonu wrote:Blind Brothers became secret order not Seven Cities citizents. They left Sar-Shazzar and his mages from Seven Cities, so how they could live under one roof with someone with they disagree?
Besides Sar-Issus and Sar-Shazzar are not the same people.


Yes they aren't the person, Sar-Issus doesn't appear in the timeline either. Who is he anyway I would ask? The wizards hold him in high esteem but what's his relationship to Sar-Elam and Sar-Shazzar?

Yes the blind brothers can operate quite happily in the Silver Cities. They are not a SECRET order for nothing are they? Since when did people living in the same society have to agree with eachother? That is not normally the case in real life is it?

One way or another the necromancers were wiped out and necromancy was purged from the

Avonu wrote:When and where is that written? :P

It's all in here.

At a critical moment he uncovered an ancient manuscript; it was a part of the writings of Sar-Elam collectively known as the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon. This particular chapter spoke of Necromancy, the power of the immortal soul, and the aspect of Asha that was least-known and least-worshipped.


Belketh UNCOVERED something! What he uncovered was part of the writings of Sar-Elam which the wizards ultimately trace their knowledge back to. What he uncovered was an ancient document, which means that it is something from a long time ago.

You do not have to uncover something that isn't covered up do you? The wizards clear as clarity suppressed these teachings; edited them out of the teaching.

And the document that was suppressed speaks of necromancy alongside the religious/philosophical stuff. That is to say the knowledge that the wizards purged from Sar-Elam's teachings was the bit that taught people about necromancy. Spoke of has to be understood that way else why would it be suppressed rather than venerated?

Avonu wrote:Necromacers belive in reincarnation. When they die, they will be reborn (that what they belive) in new body/form by Asha herself. That is why Giovanni or Markal didn't defend themselves when they faced death by enemies (and only said that stupid "Asha use all" sentence).


The wizards don't believe the necromancers are reincarnated so I fail to see how that's relevent. We are talking about the wizards motives to destroy necromancers not the necromancers beliefs.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Necromancy is misunderstanding of Sar-Elam's teaching about Asha three faces. Even some necromacers belive that they don't know true meaning of Seventh Dragon's teaching.


But the only reason the teaching is known at all is that Belketh discovered the teaching like 400 years after Sar-Elam. It isn't a misunderstanding of anything- it is a key part of the teaching itself.

This is why the wizards suppressed it.

Avonu wrote:When and where they did that?
You are just saying words without NOTHING to proof them.


I have this entire document to prove what I am saying right. http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Nec ... r_%28H5%29

This source says that Belketh uncovered an ancient document from Sar-Elam. This document taught him necromancy and is thus the core basis for Necromancer civilization and their religion/philosophy.

The timeline instead says that Belketh discovers the path of necromancy.
461 YSD.
Discovery of Necromancy
Belketh, a disciple of Sar-Shazzar, discovers the path of Necromancy. Necromantic experimentations begin in the Seven Cities.


Sar Elam is described as the first wizard in the timeline. But remember that Sar-Elam spoke of necromancy in the lost part of the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon, this means that Belketh CANNOT have discovered Necromancy because Sar-Elam at the very least mentioned it in the Revelations.

This evidently means that the wizards have falsified their history by claiming that Belketh simply discovered necromancy when in fact he learned about necromancy from a part of Sar-Elam's teachings which the wizards had suppressed.

This means that Sar-Elam was not only the first wizard but also the first necromancer. The wizards destroyed all evidence to the latter, falsifying their history to make themselves and their case look better.

And if they are capable of suppressing a key part of Sar-Elam's teachings, what else have they suppressed?

Slayer of Cliffracer wrote:But in other place is said that Asha herself created those race to serve her Dragon Children. That why I said I can be wrong.


There isn't a wrong or right here. It's all religious mythology. But we have a higher vantage point somewhat since we know about the Ancients and so on.
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Postby Avonu » May 12 2011, 18:55

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
Avonu wrote:Humans also can crumple to ashes - especially mages, if their magic energy consume them (this is fantasy worlds "law" after all :P).
But in this case...


If it were normal for magic users in Ashan to crumble to ashes when they die thenwhy is it noted as happening?

Remember Markal? What did happened to him after he died?
And he was still living: A devoted student of all that Necromancy can offer, Markal has risen to the highest heights that one can achieve among the Necromancers -- while still being alive.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Sar-Elam used his powers to drive the demons back into Sheogh, Sar-Elam didn't create Sheogh though. Asha originally trapped Urgash and the demons in Sheogh. Again it never actually says that either of them created Sheogh.

Not really. Asha chained Urgash to planet core but Demons weren't banish until 48 RSS when Sar-Elam sacrifice his life force to create Sheogh prison world.
(k)Ashan lore wrote:It began in the year 40 YSD (Year of the Seventh Dragon) when Sar-Elam sacrificed himself in a rite to create Sheogh, the Demon homeworld that is also their Jail.



Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Shar-Shazzar created the wizard faction (the Seven Cities), he is their founder. Where in the timeline is the bit about him being a demon cultist and weakening the demon's prison?

Where did you get that from?

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Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Yes they aren't the person, Sar-Issus doesn't appear in the timeline either. Who is he anyway I would ask? The wizards hold him in high esteem but what's his relationship to Sar-Elam and Sar-Shazzar?

I don't remember now but he was mentioned for sure in Maahir's Gambit scenario.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Yes the blind brothers can operate quite happily in the Silver Cities. They are not a SECRET order for nothing are they? Since when did people living in the same society have to agree with eachother? That is not normally the case in real life is it?

This isn't real life.
(k)Ashan lore wrote:Schism between the disciples of Sar-Elam, who can't agree on the best way to follow the road laid down by the Seventh Dragon and, hopefully someday surpass him. Sar-Antor founds the Blind Brothers, a congregation of healers, seers and embalmers dedicated to the worship of Asha. Sar-Badon founds the Dragon Knights, a martial order disciplined in both body and mind.
The other disciples, led by Sar-Shazzar, the most gifted of them all, lead an exodus of wizards and like-minded humans to found the Seven Cities (the first kingdom of Magic) in the southern deserts.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It's all in here.

At a critical moment he uncovered an ancient manuscript; it was a part of the writings of Sar-Elam collectively known as the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon. This particular chapter spoke of Necromancy, the power of the immortal soul, and the aspect of Asha that was least-known and least-worshipped.

Read further:
The fateful text of the Revelations that Belketh read referred to this third image of Asha as the most powerful, holding sway over the works of the other two. From the rituals and the insights in this document Belketh gleaned two elements that would influence the development of the Necromancers.
One was the image of Asha as a spider, spinning the web of life, administering death through her mandibles when one's allotted time was up.
The other was the temptation of the alternative to life; death was not an end, merely a transformation. The petty desires and needs of the flesh, the destructive passions of the heart, the unreasoning decisions of the brain that piloted this mass of humours and conflicts -- death was the answer to all of that, the reduction of existence to its purest and most changeless form.

All agree that this fragment of the original text is at the origin of the Necromantic Kingdom of Heresh. After this point of agreement, however, all else diverges. On one side are the Necromancers, convinced that this fragment is the core and the essence of the teachings of Asha, and that the rest are dead ends, half-truths, and traps for the gullible and unwary. The other side of the argument, obviously, is that this fragment is necessarily only a part of a greater truth, and that in their dedication to this subset of Her teachings the Necromancers have missed much of Asha's message.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Belketh UNCOVERED something! What he uncovered was part of the writings of Sar-Elam which the wizards ultimately trace their knowledge back to. What he uncovered was an ancient document, which means that it is something from a long time ago.

Sar-Elam died in 48 RSS. 400 years later Belketh found scrap of Seventh Dragon Revelations. So it was ancient for him.
400 years later Belketh's student - Naadir - found another scrap of this Revelations.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The wizards don't believe the necromancers are reincarnated so I fail to see how that's relevent. We are talking about the wizards motives to destroy necromancers not the necromancers beliefs.

Here are Wizards motives, if you don't remember them:
(k)Ashan wrote:Jealous of the power acquired by the Necromancers, the Wizards of the Seven Cities initiate a large-scale persecution, ranging from the seizing of their properties, to banishment, to the spectacle of public executions.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
Avonu wrote:When and where they did that?
You are just saying words without NOTHING to proof them.


I have this entire document to prove what I am saying right. http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Nec ... r_%28H5%29

And where is written there, that wizards falsified pretty much their entire history? No where.:P

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Sar Elam is described as the first wizard in the timeline. But remember that Sar-Elam spoke of necromancy in the lost part of the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon, this means that Belketh CANNOT have discovered Necromancy because Sar-Elam at the very least mentioned it in the Revelations.

This evidently means that the wizards have falsified their history by claiming that Belketh simply discovered necromancy when in fact he learned about necromancy from a part of Sar-Elam's teachings which the wizards had suppressed.

Timeline is not from wizard library.
And Sar-Elam learnt all what he known and wrote in his Revelations from Asha herself.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:This means that Sar-Elam was not only the first wizard but also the first necromancer.

Knowing necromancy don't make you necromancer. Inquisitors should know demonology to fight back with it but are they demonologists?
Warlocks in HoMM2 know Necromacy - are they Necromacers?
Mages from HIV know Death magic - are they Necromacers?

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:And if they are capable of suppressing a key part of Sar-Elam's teachings, what else have they suppressed?

They are capable or they want someday surpass him? :P

I didn't hear about any other Wizard who claimed himself another Champion of Asha or even Eighth Dragon (well, there was one in 930 RSS but he ended miserably).

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 13 2011, 12:05

Avonu wrote:Remember Markal? What did happened to him after he died?
And he was still living: A devoted student of all that Necromancy can offer, Markal has risen to the highest heights that one can achieve among the Necromancers -- while still being alive.


Zehir used his magic to incinerate him so that no other necromancers might later ressurect him. Sar-Shazzar is described however as dying in his sleep and when attendents attempt to move his body to the necropolis for preperation and burial it crumbles into ashes. Nobody destroyed his body as with Markal, instead it crumbled into ashes on it's own.

Just to give us another clue as to Sar-Shazzar being a vampire, the whole event is marked as relavant to the Necropolis faction- despite the fact that it has nothing obviously to do with necromancy at all.

Avonu wrote:Not really. Asha chained Urgash to planet core but Demons weren't banish until 48 RSS when Sar-Elam sacrifice his life force to create Sheogh prison world.


This all happened in the mythic age of the timeline, but look what it says about the ancient age.

Unknown.
Elder Wars
The Angels launch a crusade on the Faceless. The destruction is terrible, and the elder races suffer tremendously. Early Elf civilizations and kingdoms are destroyed.
The Primordial Dragons become myths and are slowly forgotten. Only the Elemental Dragons are worshipped.
The Demons benefit from the general confusion to establish a foothold in the world. Lurking in uninhabited places, they slowly gather their strength.


They were already banished from the world during the mythic age and only returned when the Faceless and Angels went to war and caused sufficiant destruction that they were able to return.

Avonu wrote:I don't remember now but he was mentioned for sure in Maahir's Gambit scenario.


Maahir practically worships Sar-Issus which I reckon probably means that Sar-Issus is a very key figure in the development of wizardry, if not another same for Sar-Elam. However he is a mystery since he isn't mentioned in the timeline or anywhere else.

Avonu wrote:This isn't real life.
Schism between the disciples of Sar-Elam, who can't agree on the best way to follow the road laid down by the Seventh Dragon and, hopefully someday surpass him. Sar-Antor founds the Blind Brothers, a congregation of healers, seers and embalmers dedicated to the worship of Asha. Sar-Badon founds the Dragon Knights, a martial order disciplined in both body and mind.
The other disciples, led by Sar-Shazzar, the most gifted of them all, lead an exodus of wizards and like-minded humans to found the Seven Cities (the first kingdom of Magic) in the southern deserts.



It doesn't say the cause of the exodus. It says only that Sar-Shazzar was the leader of it. I would guess that the cause of exodus is persecution at the hands of the rising church of Elrath for worshipping a different dragon. Nor does it say what the cause of the schism was.

Given we know that Sar-Shazzar is likely a vampire and necromancy goes back to Sar-Elam we can easily kill two birds with one stone. The dispute was about the proper role of necromancy and life magic among the wizards. Remember that Heroes IV Order faction teaches both in addition to Order magic. So all three types of magic are among the teachings of Sar-Elam.

The exodite wizards led by Sar-Shazzar recognise all three kinds of magic at the same time.
The Blind Brothers led by Sar-Badon detest Necromancy and do not believe that necromancy is a legitimate part of Sar-Elam's teachings.
The Dragon Knights do not recognise either form of magic as legitimate at all, holding neither life magic or necromacy to be the legitimte part of his teachings.

Eventually either the Blind Brothers manage to take over the Seven Cities by stealth, murdering Sar-Shazzar and elevating their own contender to power, who may or may not be Sar-Issus. They purge the Seven Cities of Necromancy and destroy those parts of Sar-Elam's teachings which partain to it.

Avonu wrote:Sar-Elam died in 48 RSS. 400 years later Belketh found scrap of Seventh Dragon Revelations. So it was ancient for him.
400 years later Belketh's student - Naadir - found another scrap of this Revelations.


Given that these are the Seventh Dragon Revelations the teachings of Asha/God himself why wouldn't Belketh simply pick them up in the library like one would get a copy of the Bible? Why did he have to uncover an ancient document.

Naadir didn't find another scrap, Naadir aquired the original document that was annotated by Belketh(as the game says). He did so because he needed material proof that Belketh had uncovered a document which taught him necromancy rather than inventing it (as the wizards were claiming).

Interestinly it appears that this must be a recent development, given that the source document (which keeps being deleted annoyingly, seems the wizards are online taking offense:D :D ) http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=28702 , says this.
Those wishing to further study the lore of the Necromancers and the history of Heresh are invited to peruse one of the great libraries of the Silver Cities, perhaps one of those in Qays or Fidaa. The eager student may even travel to Heresh to learn from the source, though those who do so seem, upon their return, to be somewhat altered...


Given it gives a detailed description of Heresh society but mentioned the Silver Cities this document is clearly written between the end of the civil war in 770 and the War of the Broken Staff in 813(in which Heresh is destroyed).

So it would seem that actually the claim that Belketh discovered Necromancy is not even the original claim. Their original claim was probably that Necromancy was ancient- but that Belketh had uncovered a forged document purporting to be from the Seventh Dragon: which taught him Necromancy.

Only when the necromancers (and Belketh) were safely disposed of did they rewrite the history so that he invented Necromancy and no ancient documents taught him anything. Naadir knows this, which is why he is prepared to take such risks to find the original document AS annotated by Belketh in order to foil this rewriting of history.

Avonu wrote:Here are Wizards motives, if you don't remember them:


The Timeline is not written by the wizards, it is written by a Haven historian who sources from the wizards official history and gives it an unflattering interpretation of thier motives but doesn't know enough about the controversy about the ancient document and Belketh to contradict their version of event.

Avonu wrote:And where is written there, that wizards falsified pretty much their entire history? No where.:P


Maybe that puts it a bit too strong, but their historical recollection is suprisingly iffy.

The 'origin' of the beastmen and the orcs are dark enough in their actual rendering in the timeline. Given the amount of other evidence that Ashan *is* Axeoth in the future and we know that both beastmen and orcs exist in Heroes IV (and in the general M&M universe) could not that dark truth that the wizards used their magics to summon and enslave entire races and then tainted one of them irrevocably with demon blood?

To create the beastmen let alone in the kind of numbers to become viable troops in anyone's army would take godlike powers that appear to have eluded them ever since and they even managed this feat in a single year, 512. How amazing that they managed to achieve such a feat when bled dry by a war with the orcs! The orcs are more of a problem but sources to the rescue.
Demons and Orcs - Brother Enemies wrote:It is at this point that a daring experiment is made. Focussing the energy of inert earthen elements on a human body pumped full of demon blood, the Wizards discover that they can bring it back to life. Though the beast immediately dies, they learn that they could perhaps combine two fundamentally opposed forces to create a new race, a different race, a race made from a child of Asha and a child of Urgash. Such a creation could turn the balance in the war.


Demons and Orcs - Brother Enemies wrote:Failures are numerous: burning bodies, madmen, and beastly freaks are born from their arcane laboratories in alarming proportions. But a breakthrough is made by a wizard named Ishizaar. He discovers that by increasing the concentration of elemental components, notably through augmenting and properly aligning the energetic prisms of gems and crystals, the conflicting forces are confined in a manner that remains stable.


So Ishizaar managed to perfect the process the wizards apparantly are able to mass-produce armies of orcs from human beings. Or is that what really happened, were they really human beings?

Demons and Orcs - Brother Enemies wrote:The Demon Lords, boiling in anger, refuse to go down alone. They swear that if their legions will not survive the war, neither will the Orcs. Their solution is one of demonic simplicity – with no Orc children, there will be no future for the Orcs.

The demon tactics turn to infiltration and assassination. As their creators drive their Orc slaves to the front lines to fight, unprotected Orcish villages are visited at night by shadowy forms haloed in flames and terror. When the victorious tribes return to their huts, their future generations and hopes are missing.


Wait a moment- if the wizards are able to create new orcs from humans via a basic process which they have been able to perform sufficianly easily to create entire armies of orcs to fight the demons, then killing orc children or even wiping out the entire orc race will not achieve much. The wizards will simply MAKE MORE!

The problem is that the experiments using humans failed, but those using orcs succeeded. They made the demon-blooded orcs from the existing orc populations of Ashan, that's why the demons strategy makes sense.

The wizards ability to create the new 'orcs' for their armies is dependant upon villages of earlier orcs already existing, these orcs villages are (relatively) unprotected because they are beyond the wizards control. The demons decide to starve the wizards army of reinforcements by wiping out the original orcs from which the new orcs are made. The consequence is that only the demon-blooded new orcs, under the wizards noses as their slaves survive.

But if the orcs were actually created from humans, the demons strategy would make no sense at all.

Avonu wrote:Timeline is not from wizard library.
And Sar-Elam learnt all what he known and wrote in his Revelations from Asha herself.


He obviously used powerful magic of some kind to reach Asha in the first place. If you consider that Heroes IV mages practice primarily order magic it would logically be the penultimate achivement to achieve contact with the god of order (Asha) himself. So the Revelations are at the same time a religious document and the supreme 'library' of magic knowledge.

Sar-Elam is a powerful Heroes IV Mage and thus he also knows Death and Life magic in addition to Order Magic. The dispute is about the role of these ancillary forms of magic in relation to the Revelations. Since they are not Order magic, do they really have anything to do with Asha and thus are they legitimately revelations at all?

Dragon Knights position: Asha is completely seperate from Elrath (Life) and Malassa (Death). Therefore any teachings of necromancy OR life magic cannot truly be Revelations of Asha. Both teachings must be purged.
Blind Brothers position: Asha created Elrath but Urgash created Malassa, thus Life magic but not Necromancy is part of the Relevations, the latter must be purged.
Sar-Shazzar position: Asha has three faces, one represents life, the second represents order and the third death. Thus all three kinds of magic are legitimate parts of Sar-Elam's teachings.
Later wizards position: Same as the blind brothers.
Necromancers position: Asha has three faces, but the third the spider godess is the true essence of Asha.
Modern wizards position: Gods, religion and mythology are for losers but necromancy is evil.

Avonu wrote:Knowing necromancy don't make you necromancer. Inquisitors should know demonology to fight back with it but are they demonologists?
Warlocks in HoMM2 know Necromacy - are they Necromacers?
Mages from HIV know Death magic - are they Necromacers?


Yes Sar-Elam practiced necromancy in the same fashion that mages from Heroes IV do. He was not a necromancer except in the absolute sense that he used it to some extent. The problem is that he taught it to his disciples as well, which the necromancers of Ashan developed upon.

The problem is the wizards denied that this was the case and suppressed those teachings. The necromancers however can still never-the-less claim a lineage from Sar-Elam in the same way that the wizards can.

In either case it doesn't matter, I have sufficiantly taken down one of the problems with Axeoth being Ashan in the future and badly weakened the credibility
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.



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Postby Infiltrator » May 14 2011, 10:41

This has much to do with black dragons being in the game ;|
Infiltrator out.

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Postby Avonu » May 17 2011, 10:42

Infiltrator wrote:This has much to do with black dragons being in the game ;|


Of course - they are descendants of Axeoth's black dragons. ;)

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Sar-Shazzar is described however as dying in his sleep and when attendents attempt to move his body to the necropolis for preperation and burial it crumbles into ashes.

Funny. When you see vampires, they turn to dust just after they die (HV, Giovanni), yet Sar-Shazzar body was intact until it was moved. So?
Vampire would turn to ashes immediately, not just "go sleep and turn to dust after you poke me".
Sar-Shazzar "dusting" sounds to me like his body "mummiefied" after his dead (from old age or was consumed by magic - see Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, when villian drunk from false Grail).

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:They were already banished from the world during the mythic age and only returned when the Faceless and Angels went to war and caused sufficiant destruction that they were able to return.

Read other sources not just Timeline. In all of them it is said that Sar-Elam CREATED Sheogh for the cost of his life.
Also where is pointed that they were banished? This quote say only that they created foothold.
Demons leave Sheogh only when Bloodmoon Elcipses arrive - and first was 300 years after Sar-Elam death.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Maahir practically worships Sar-Issus which I reckon probably means that Sar-Issus is a very key figure in the development of wizardry, if not another same for Sar-Elam. However he is a mystery since he isn't mentioned in the timeline or anywhere else.

He is but if you are so lazy to read other sources then Timeline, you won't find any info about him. He was mentioned in HV Maahir's Gambit scenario, so play it.
EDIT:
Read also Warlock bio from HVI (Me want to tear apart person resposible for calling that Inferno hero).


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It doesn't say the cause of the exodus. It says only that Sar-Shazzar was the leader of it. I would guess that the cause of exodus is persecution at the hands of the rising church of Elrath for worshipping a different dragon. Nor does it say what the cause of the schism was.


Doesn't say? Right
62 YSD: The Schism of the Seven
Founding of the Dragon knights, the Blind Brothers, and the Seven Cities
Schism between the disciples of Sar-Elam, who can't agree on the best way to follow the road laid down by the Seventh Dragon and, hopefully someday surpass him. Sar-Antor founds the Blind Brothers, a congregation of healers, seers and embalmers dedicated to the worship of Asha. Sar-Badon founds the Dragon Knights, a martial order disciplined in both body and mind.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Given we know that Sar-Shazzar is likely a vampire and necromancy goes back to Sar-Elam we can easily kill two birds with one stone.

No, we don't. You are only one who misread timeline, ignore other sources and think that Sar-Shazzar was vampire. Only you.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Eventually either the Blind Brothers manage to take over the Seven Cities by stealth, murdering Sar-Shazzar and elevating their own contender to power, who may or may not be Sar-Issus. They purge the Seven Cities of Necromancy and destroy those parts of Sar-Elam's teachings which partain to it.

Yes, right. :P
And proofs for that? I said proofs not your theories.
Also Blind Brothers where all in Ashan (one is found in Isabel campaign in Holy Griffin Empire), so why you think they go to Seven Cities as a whole?

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Given that these are the Seventh Dragon Revelations the teachings of Asha/God himself why wouldn't Belketh simply pick them up in the library like one would get a copy of the Bible? Why did he have to uncover an ancient document.

Asha is a she.
At a critical moment he uncovered an ancient manuscript; it was a part of the writings of Sar-Elam collectively known as the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon. This particular chapter spoke of Necromancy, the power of the immortal soul, and the aspect of Asha that was least-known and least-worshipped.

He didn't find whole "bible" only chapter(s) of it (that/those which he found). That is why he also misuderstand Sar-Elam teaching - he didn't read them all (same like you :P).

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The Timeline is not written by the wizards, it is written by a Haven historian who sources from the wizards official history and gives it an unflattering interpretation of thier motives but doesn't know enough about the controversy about the ancient document and Belketh to contradict their version of event.

And his name was...?
And of course you found any text, that prove all these was written by this Haven historian? Let me guess... No? :P

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The 'origin' of the beastmen and the orcs are dark enough in their actual rendering in the timeline. Given the amount of other evidence that Ashan *is* Axeoth in the future and we know that both beastmen and orcs exist in Heroes IV (and in the general M&M universe) could not that dark truth that the wizards used their magics to summon and enslave entire races and then tainted one of them irrevocably with demon blood?

You didn't gave ANY evidence that Ashan is Axeoth. Any.
And creation of Orcs is well written. I suppose that we learn more about Beastmen in HVI (we know some facts about them already from creatures bios).

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Wait a moment- if the wizards are able to create new orcs from humans via a basic process which they have been able to perform sufficianly easily to create entire armies of orcs to fight the demons, then killing orc children or even wiping out the entire orc race will not achieve much. The wizards will simply MAKE MORE!

He, he. How you can't love Ashan lore authors? They sometimes must shut down their brains while they are writting lore.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:He obviously used powerful magic of some kind to reach Asha in the first place.

He reached her mind. His journey was spiritual not physical.
Sar-Elam the first wizard reaches the conscience of the Dragon of Order who teaches him on the nature of matter and spirit and shows him the higher path of power. Enlightened by his new understanding, Sar-Elam becomes the Seventh Dragon.

Shamans of Orcs (from HVI) also can journey Spirit Realm, so it is not so uncommon in Ashan.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Dragon Knights position: Asha is completely seperate from Elrath (Life) and Malassa (Death). Therefore any teachings of necromancy OR life magic cannot truly be Revelations of Asha. Both teachings must be purged.
Blind Brothers position: Asha created Elrath but Urgash created Malassa, thus Life magic but not Necromancy is part of the Relevations, the latter must be purged.
Sar-Shazzar position: Asha has three faces, one represents life, the second represents order and the third death. Thus all three kinds of magic are legitimate parts of Sar-Elam's teachings.
Later wizards position: Same as the blind brothers.
Necromancers position: Asha has three faces, but the third the spider godess is the true essence of Asha.
Modern wizards position: Gods, religion and mythology are for losers but necromancy is evil.

Elrath is Light, Malassa is Dark. Life, Death and Time are three aspects of Asha. She is Dragon Godess of Life and Death (and Time).
Wizards belive in themselves, sometimes in Ylath (Dragon God of Air) and sometimes in all 7 dragons (Elemental Dragons + Asha).
Necromacers belive in Spider Goddess - misundersood image of Death aspect of Asha.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 17 2011, 16:49

Avonu wrote:Of course - they are descendants of Axeoth's black dragons. wink

Quite right. :devious: :devious:
Avonu wrote:Funny. When you see vampires, they turn to dust just after they die (HV, Giovanni), yet Sar-Shazzar body was intact until it was moved. So?
Vampire would turn to ashes immediately, not just "go sleep and turn to dust after you poke me".
Sar-Shazzar "dusting" sounds to me like his body "mummiefied" after his dead (from old age or was consumed by magic - see Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, when villian drunk from false Grail).

Sar-Shazzar was asleep when he died. This might seem a small matter to you but vampire death is obviously a complicated thing.

Vampires have the natural ability to ressurect themselves from the freshly spilt blood of their foes if spilt in sufficiant quantities. They can do this even when on the other side of the battlefield as long as it's their fellow vampires which are the one's doing the bloodspilling.

They don't turn into dust because they are dead, they do so because they are trying to not die. They can restore their original form from the dust form quite easily, just add blood. It is clear enough that dead vampires dust follow other vampires in the immediate vicinity until sufficiant blood is available for them to settle and ressurect themselves.

If it's the vampire's consciousness that is imbued in the dust pile then it follows that a vampire that was not conscious at the time of it's death would not dissolve into dust because it has no consciousness to animate such dust.

However the vampire body also is able to heal using blood and healing is not ipso facto not a conscious process. Assuming the same basic process is used by vampires to heal as to turn to dust; when when exposed to the very close proximity of blood (such as in the bodies of his attendants) then the healing/dusting process would trigger unconsciously.

This would mean that you could ressurect a sleeping vampire that had recently died by pouring blood over it, it would immediately turn to dust in order to begin the recreation process unconsciously.
Avonu wrote:Read other sources not just Timeline. In all of them it is said that Sar-Elam CREATED Sheogh for the cost of his life.
Also where is pointed that they were banished? This quote say only that they created foothold.
Demons leave Sheogh only when Bloodmoon Elcipses arrive - and first was 300 years after Sar-Elam death.


Sheogh is described as a prison for the demons. To create a prison doesn't neccesarily mean that you actually built the building, merely that you converted an existing building into a prison.

And if the inmates take over the prison and get away with it, then the building can cease to be a prison altogether.

Fact is the demons have been banished from the world before

Avonu wrote:He is but if you are so lazy to read other sources then Timeline, you won't find any info about him. He was mentioned in HV Maahir's Gambit scenario, so play it.
EDIT:
Read also Warlock bio from HVI (Me want to tear apart person resposible for calling that Inferno hero).

I just mentioned Maahir Avonu. I said that from the scenario one gets the impression that Maahir practically worships Sar-Issus as if he were some sort of God.

This suggests that he has a really great role in wizard history, similar to Sar-Elam but yet he is not mentioned in the timeline. Might he be the one that suppressed necromancy in the Seven Cities, which is why Maahir pratically worships him?

Avonu wrote:No, we don't. You are only one who misread timeline, ignore other sources and think that Sar-Shazzar was vampire. Only you.

Like that matters. You are the one saying without any evidence that powerful spell-casters turn into dust when they die, when I at least have evidence that vampires do.

Avonu wrote:Yes, right. :P
And proofs for that? I said proofs not your theories.
Also Blind Brothers where all in Ashan (one is found in Isabel campaign in Holy Griffin Empire), so why you think they go to Seven Cities as a whole?

Ummm, the Seven Cities are in Ashan. That the Blind Brothers are responsable is just a theory- they are suspects not convincts of the 'crime'. The 'crime' is suppressing Sar-Elam's teachings regarding necromancy.

And as the only one's describes as 'healers', thus aligned to the life magic they are the prime suspects. But I have no actual proof of 'guilt'.

Avonu wrote:Asha is a she.

I know that but God is usually reffered to as a he. I was being sarcastic about the role given to Sar-Elam in the story. As it being like that of Christ in the heretical Adoptionist form of Christianity.

Avonu wrote:He didn't find whole "bible" only chapter(s) of it (that/those which he found). That is why he also misuderstand Sar-Elam teaching - he didn't read them all (same like you :P).

Whether or not Belketh is right in his understanding is neither here nor there. The point is he found part of Sar-Elam's teachings which had been suppressed by the wizards after his death.

I never said he found the whole bible, indeed his obsession with the lost passages probably distorted his understanding ironically as much as suppressing the passages did to the wizards.

Avonu wrote:And his name was...?
And of course you found any text, that prove all these was written by this Haven historian? Let me guess... No? :P

Who doesn't it insult? The Haven. That's why we know it's written by them.

Avonu wrote:You didn't gave ANY evidence that Ashan is Axeoth. Any.
And creation of Orcs is well written. I suppose that we learn more about Beastmen in HVI (we know some facts about them already from creatures bios).

There are far too many beastmen in the world in Heroes VI a mere 50 years later, that's why we know the beastmen story is BS. Along with the fact that the wizards apparantly managed the whole feat in a year and haven't demonstrated the ability since.

Avonu wrote:He reached her mind. His journey was spiritual not physical.

Magic IS Spiritual Avonu. The point is that it is no small feat, so not something that can really be the beginning of magic but instead a rather advanced version of it.

Avonu wrote:Shamans of Orcs (from HVI) also can journey Spirit Realm, so it is not so uncommon in Ashan.

That's not at all the same as meeting a dragon-god. Anyway, the dreamwalkers provide interesting evidence against the orc orgin story given.

Dream Walkers wrote:Orcs pray to Mother Earth and Father Sky, but Dreamwalkers are the voices of the tribes' ancestors. To become a Dreamwalker, a shaman must first undertake a dream journey to the Spirit World to meet the spirits of his ancestors. During this inner journey, the Dreamwalker must also face his own demonic heritage and destroy the Chaos within himself. Many Dreamwalkers die during this trial. Those who survive return transformed: their body twisted and deformed by their struggle with their chaotic blood, but their mind imbued with a greater understanding of blood magic and the spiritual realms.


If the orcs are made from humans, then wouldn't this mean that to remove the demon blood from themselves would mean to become humans? If a being is made from a mixture, to remove one part of the mixture would destroy the creature utterly.

So the dreamwalker story suggests that demon blood is something that is basically tainting the previous lineage of the orcdom, something that the orcs can remove potentially at great personal danger without destroying themselves.

Dream Walkers wrote:Elrath is Light, Malassa is Dark. Life, Death and Time are three aspects of Asha. She is Dragon Godess of Life and Death (and Time).
Wizards belive in themselves, sometimes in Ylath (Dragon God of Air) and sometimes in all 7 dragons (Elemental Dragons + Asha).
Necromacers belive in Spider Goddess - misundersood image of Death aspect of Asha.


Not exactly, the Three-Faces of Asha are Life, Destiny (not quite time) and Death.

For Asha, the goddess who created the world that bears her name, is all facets of the wheel of existence; the triple-faced figure of birth, life and death.
She is the Faceless Maiden, Destiny's herald, stitching here and there, unseen, to make sure that all the living creatures fulfil their purpose.
She is the Mother, who regards all things as her creation and her children. By giving birth, she set chaos into form and gives meaning to potential.
She is the Crone, wizened and old, who snips the web of life, with a sickle held in gnarled fingers, when the time has come.


Elrath's Archangels have the ability to raise the dead. This means that Elrath is also connected to Life. Consequently one would conclude that Malassa would be connected of Death. In both cases we can determine that both Elrath and Malassa are connected to Asha and vice versa.

Asha is what unites Malassa and Elrath as she is aligned to both. The Order faction in Heroes IV is aligned to both Life and Death. Life and Death are opposed however. Elrath and Malassa are also obviously opposed (Light and Dark).

The middle face of Asha however is in a sense the "pure" Asha, this is probably what Belketh's reasoning was. The third face (darkness/death/Malassa) is at the core of Necromancy: which allows the literal achievement of a State BETWEEN Life and Death. This allows the purest 'appreciation' of Asha between Life/Light (Elrath) and Darkness/Death (Malassa).

Remember that Asha is a name for the god which governs the material creation and shaped the world through the Ancients. She isn't literally a dragon.

Asha/material reality/the Ancients were always caught between the conflicting demands of the Realm of Glory and the Realm of Death. The Angels come from the first, the Faceless come from the second.

The 'argument' is about whether to preserve the existing lifeforms in immortality, (this is why it's called Glory) and whether to kill everything and leave a desolate waste. Asha's three faces is a metaphorical way of depicting the nature of material 'real life' as opposed to the ideal immortal life of Elrath and the extinction of Malassa.

When Kalibarr travelled to the Realm of Death the cloaked being he was dealing with was one of the Faceless. That's why he planned to unleash the unholy wind to eliminate all life to decide the argument within Asha/material reality ultimately in favour of 'Malassa' and the Faceless.
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Postby MattII » May 17 2011, 21:00

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:There are far too many beastmen in the world in Heroes VI a mere 50 years later, that's why we know the beastmen story is BS. Along with the fact that the wizards apparantly managed the whole feat in a year and haven't demonstrated the ability since.
Yeah, well, maybe after the Orcs rebelled, and the other Beastmen deserted they decided Genies and Golems were a better bet.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 19 2011, 19:36

MattII wrote:Yeah, well, maybe after the Orcs rebelled, and the other Beastmen deserted they decided Genies and Golems were a better bet.


That isn't really the problem. One way or another the wizards obviously gave up on enslaving/creating/summoning or whatever they did to said creatures to get them as their servants and they had a reason to do so.

The problem as I said is that there are just far too many beastmen around a mere 50 years after their creation by the wizards compared to the number of older creatures (including orcs). The only way they could have amassed so many beastmen would be if they had devised some sort of means of mass-producing living things without having to worry about the normal gestation and growth process. That is to say if they had created a clone-army similar amusingly to the one in Star Wars Attack of the Clones.

However they obviously cannot mantain an indefinate number of golems and gargoyles. Unlike with living creatures, they do not grow old and die so this means they would have assembled an army of countless millions and no other force on Ashan would matter militarily one bit. Golems and Gaygoyles don't eat food, living creatures do. Thus they evidently don't compete with the beastmen in any real way. As it is described in the Centaur bio, it sounds like they were becoming obsolete.
Like the Harpies, Centaurs are Beastmen, created by the Wizards of the Seven Cities in the year 512 YSD. Half-human and half-horse, they served their masters honorably as scouts and mobile archery in their armies. But those days came to an end when the Wizards replaced them with their new creations, the animated constructs. The various Golems, Gargoyles, Titans, etc. were simpler to manage, cheaper to keep, and unfailingly obedient.

The Centaurs were given less and less noble tasks, and ended up carrying messages and pulling carts. Disgruntled at their loss of prestige, they willingly joined the Revolt of the Beastmen and scattered across the face of Ashan, seeking space, dignity, and freedom.

They soon met with the Orc tribes and became their allies, out of common interest and like-mindedness.


Say you can produce 1000 centaurs a month and 1000 golems. You have enough food to feed 10,000 centaurs and have enough magic to support 50,000 golems. Given that this is war and in war numbers matter, you very soon reach the upper limit (in around 4 years for golems, around 8 years for centaurs) then to eliminate beastmen would reduce the size of your army to 1/3rd of it's original size.

Rebellion by these beastmen is a minor nuisance, your animated constructs can slaughter any troublemakers and they can be as easily replaced as those constructs can. As with the flaw in the demons apparant plan with the orcs, they can always make more. If they destroy some of your constructs- you can always make more of those too.

Another huge problem with the story beckons, Sharkmen.
In the year 512 YSD, the Wizards of the Seven Cities created the Beastmen as guards, servants... and playthings.

Perhaps one of the most bizarre experiments of a particularly imaginative wizard was to create a hybrid between man and shark, a breed which the wizard hoped would make unsurpassed naval troops.

The members of the Wizard Council were not convinced and decided to trade the military use of the Sharkmen for a political one: they offered the creatures as a gift to the Naga lords.

The Naga welcomed the Sharkmen as equals rather than slaves, and offering them honorable positions as guards of their underwater palaces. In return, the Shark Guards follow their masters with unyielding pride and loyalty.


This is the too many beastmen problem at it's worst. There were obviously never any substantial number of sharkmen in the Seven Cities before; they decided they weren't on balance much use and then gave them all away. Without a means of mass-producing sharkmen, then assuming that the generations of sharkmen are the same as human generations (humans and sharks actually reproduce at a similar rate) then there are simply too many sharkmen.

Each generation is 30 years, so then there has been 1 generation since the creation of the Sharkmen, which start off fully grown so are a generation ahead. The 3nd generation of sharkmen is just about getting married and having their sharkbabies. If the wizards had created 5000 sharkmen (unlikely) and gifted them and those sharkmen had a massive number of 4 surviving children each then that means 20000 sharkmen exist in the whole of Hashima.

Now let's assume that Kenshi reproduce at half the human rate, that is they have generations of 60 years. If Hashima is a mere 500 years old then if a miserable 5000 Kenshi at the founding of that nation then that means 8 generations have passed. Given each having 4 surviving children, then this means that there are......

720000 Kenshi vs 20000 Sharkmen. Simply not a viable 1st tier troop are they?
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Postby ThunderTitan » May 22 2011, 21:00

The answer is obvious... magical test tube babies... and at some point the religious Haven factions managed to gain enough seats on the Ashan congress to outlaw in vitro (and abortions, obviously).
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Postby ThunderTitan » May 22 2011, 21:06

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote: H5 is debatable (without Slayer levels of self delusion) now?


Really when will you all learn that you can't insult people behind their backs on a forum where they can read everything you say.


Insulting people behind their back is rude... which is why i'm doing it to your face... coz i'm a nice guy.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:They apparently can't remember anything at all before 1000 years ago, which bears into question the accuracy of their entire history scheme. Maybe I got a bit carried away with theorising as to how but I was never self-delusional.


Carried away right off a cliff...


But seriously, you need to learn to laugh at yourself and admit that some theories are more about fun then being right.
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