Avonu wrote:Remember Markal? What did happened to him after he died?
And he was still living: A devoted student of all that Necromancy can offer, Markal has risen to the highest heights that one can achieve among the Necromancers -- while still being alive.
Zehir used his magic to incinerate him so that no other necromancers might later ressurect him. Sar-Shazzar is described however as dying in his sleep and when attendents attempt to move his body to the necropolis for preperation and burial it crumbles into ashes. Nobody destroyed his body as with Markal, instead it crumbled into ashes on it's own.
Just to give us another clue as to Sar-Shazzar being a vampire, the whole event is marked as relavant to the Necropolis faction- despite the fact that it has nothing obviously to do with necromancy at all.
Avonu wrote:Not really. Asha chained Urgash to planet core but Demons weren't banish until 48 RSS when Sar-Elam sacrifice his life force to create Sheogh prison world.
This all happened in the mythic age of the timeline, but look what it says about the ancient age.
The Angels launch a crusade on the Faceless. The destruction is terrible, and the elder races suffer tremendously. Early Elf civilizations and kingdoms are destroyed.
The Primordial Dragons become myths and are slowly forgotten. Only the Elemental Dragons are worshipped.
The Demons benefit from the general confusion to establish a foothold in the world. Lurking in uninhabited places, they slowly gather their strength.
They were already banished from the world during the mythic age and only returned when the Faceless and Angels went to war and caused sufficiant destruction that they were able to return.
Avonu wrote:I don't remember now but he was mentioned for sure in Maahir's Gambit scenario.
Maahir practically worships Sar-Issus which I reckon probably means that Sar-Issus is a very key figure in the development of wizardry, if not another same for Sar-Elam. However he is a mystery since he isn't mentioned in the timeline or anywhere else.
This isn't real life.
Schism between the disciples of Sar-Elam, who can't agree on the best way to follow the road laid down by the Seventh Dragon and, hopefully someday surpass him. Sar-Antor founds the Blind Brothers, a congregation of healers, seers and embalmers dedicated to the worship of Asha. Sar-Badon founds the Dragon Knights, a martial order disciplined in both body and mind.
The other disciples, led by Sar-Shazzar, the most gifted of them all, lead an exodus of wizards and like-minded humans to found the Seven Cities (the first kingdom of Magic) in the southern deserts.
It doesn't say the cause of the exodus. It says only that Sar-Shazzar was the leader of it. I would guess that the cause of exodus is persecution at the hands of the rising church of Elrath for worshipping a different dragon. Nor does it say what the cause of the schism was.
Given we know that Sar-Shazzar is likely a vampire and necromancy goes back to Sar-Elam we can easily kill two birds with one stone. The dispute was about the proper role of necromancy and life magic among the wizards. Remember that Heroes IV Order faction teaches both in addition to Order magic. So all three types of magic are among the teachings of Sar-Elam.
The exodite wizards led by Sar-Shazzar recognise all three kinds of magic at the same time.
The Blind Brothers led by Sar-Badon detest Necromancy and do not believe that necromancy is a legitimate part of Sar-Elam's teachings.
The Dragon Knights do not recognise either form of magic as legitimate at all, holding neither life magic or necromacy to be the legitimte part of his teachings.
Eventually either the Blind Brothers manage to take over the Seven Cities by stealth, murdering Sar-Shazzar and elevating their own contender to power, who may or may not be Sar-Issus. They purge the Seven Cities of Necromancy and destroy those parts of Sar-Elam's teachings which partain to it.
Avonu wrote:Sar-Elam died in 48 RSS. 400 years later Belketh found scrap of Seventh Dragon Revelations. So it was ancient for him.
400 years later Belketh's student - Naadir - found another scrap of this Revelations.
Given that these are the Seventh Dragon Revelations the teachings of Asha/God himself why wouldn't Belketh simply pick them up in the library like one would get a copy of the Bible? Why did he have to uncover an ancient document.
Naadir didn't find another scrap, Naadir aquired the original document that was annotated by Belketh(as the game says). He did so because he needed material proof that Belketh had uncovered a document which taught him necromancy rather than inventing it (as the wizards were claiming).
Interestinly it appears that this must be a recent development, given that the source document (which keeps being deleted annoyingly, seems the wizards are online taking offense:D
, says this.
Those wishing to further study the lore of the Necromancers and the history of Heresh are invited to peruse one of the great libraries of the Silver Cities, perhaps one of those in Qays or Fidaa. The eager student may even travel to Heresh to learn from the source, though those who do so seem, upon their return, to be somewhat altered...
Given it gives a detailed description of Heresh society but mentioned the Silver Cities this document is clearly written between the end of the civil war in 770 and the War of the Broken Staff in 813(in which Heresh is destroyed).
So it would seem that actually the claim that Belketh discovered Necromancy is not even the original claim. Their original claim was probably that Necromancy was ancient- but that Belketh had uncovered a forged document purporting to be from the Seventh Dragon: which taught him Necromancy.
Only when the necromancers (and Belketh) were safely disposed of did they rewrite the history so that he invented Necromancy and no ancient documents taught him anything. Naadir knows this, which is why he is prepared to take such risks to find the original document AS annotated by Belketh in order to foil this rewriting of history.
Avonu wrote:Here are Wizards motives, if you don't remember them:
The Timeline is not written by the wizards, it is written by a Haven historian who sources from the wizards official history and gives it an unflattering interpretation of thier motives but doesn't know enough about the controversy about the ancient document and Belketh to contradict their version of event.
And where is written there, that wizards falsified pretty much their entire history? No where.
Maybe that puts it a bit too strong, but their historical recollection is suprisingly iffy.
The 'origin' of the beastmen and the orcs are dark enough in their actual rendering in the timeline. Given the amount of other evidence that Ashan *is* Axeoth in the future and we know that both beastmen and orcs exist in Heroes IV (and in the general M&M universe) could not that dark truth that the wizards used their magics to summon and enslave entire races and then tainted one of them irrevocably with demon blood?
To create the beastmen let alone in the kind of numbers to become viable troops in anyone's army would take godlike powers that appear to have eluded them ever since and they even managed this feat in a single year, 512. How amazing that they managed to achieve such a feat when bled dry by a war with the orcs! The orcs are more of a problem but sources to the rescue.
Demons and Orcs - Brother Enemies wrote:It is at this point that a daring experiment is made. Focussing the energy of inert earthen elements on a human body pumped full of demon blood, the Wizards discover that they can bring it back to life. Though the beast immediately dies, they learn that they could perhaps combine two fundamentally opposed forces to create a new race, a different race, a race made from a child of Asha and a child of Urgash. Such a creation could turn the balance in the war.
Demons and Orcs - Brother Enemies wrote:Failures are numerous: burning bodies, madmen, and beastly freaks are born from their arcane laboratories in alarming proportions. But a breakthrough is made by a wizard named Ishizaar. He discovers that by increasing the concentration of elemental components, notably through augmenting and properly aligning the energetic prisms of gems and crystals, the conflicting forces are confined in a manner that remains stable.
So Ishizaar managed to perfect the process the wizards apparantly are able to mass-produce armies of orcs from human beings. Or is that what really happened, were they really human beings?
Demons and Orcs - Brother Enemies wrote:The Demon Lords, boiling in anger, refuse to go down alone. They swear that if their legions will not survive the war, neither will the Orcs. Their solution is one of demonic simplicity – with no Orc children, there will be no future for the Orcs.
The demon tactics turn to infiltration and assassination. As their creators drive their Orc slaves to the front lines to fight, unprotected Orcish villages are visited at night by shadowy forms haloed in flames and terror. When the victorious tribes return to their huts, their future generations and hopes are missing.
Wait a moment- if the wizards are able to create new orcs from humans via a basic process which they have been able to perform sufficianly easily to create entire armies of orcs to fight the demons, then killing orc children or even wiping out the entire orc race will not achieve much. The wizards will simply MAKE MORE!
The problem is that the experiments using humans failed, but those using orcs succeeded. They made the demon-blooded orcs from the existing orc populations of Ashan, that's why the demons strategy makes sense.
The wizards ability to create the new 'orcs' for their armies is dependant upon villages of earlier orcs already existing, these orcs villages are (relatively) unprotected because they are beyond the wizards control. The demons decide to starve the wizards army of reinforcements by wiping out the original orcs from which the new orcs are made. The consequence is that only the demon-blooded new orcs, under the wizards noses as their slaves survive.
But if the orcs were actually created from humans, the demons strategy would make no sense at all.
Avonu wrote:Timeline is not from wizard library.
And Sar-Elam learnt all what he known and wrote in his Revelations from Asha herself.
He obviously used powerful magic of some kind to reach Asha in the first place. If you consider that Heroes IV mages practice primarily order magic it would logically be the penultimate achivement to achieve contact with the god of order (Asha) himself. So the Revelations are at the same time a religious document and the supreme 'library' of magic knowledge.
Sar-Elam is a powerful Heroes IV Mage and thus he also knows Death and Life magic in addition to Order Magic. The dispute is about the role of these ancillary forms of magic in relation to the Revelations. Since they are not Order magic, do they really have anything to do with Asha and thus are they legitimately revelations at all?
Dragon Knights position: Asha is completely seperate from Elrath (Life) and Malassa (Death). Therefore any teachings of necromancy OR life magic cannot truly be Revelations of Asha. Both teachings must be purged.
Blind Brothers position: Asha created Elrath but Urgash created Malassa, thus Life magic but not Necromancy is part of the Relevations, the latter must be purged.
Sar-Shazzar position: Asha has three faces, one represents life, the second represents order and the third death. Thus all three kinds of magic are legitimate parts of Sar-Elam's teachings.
Later wizards position: Same as the blind brothers.
Necromancers position: Asha has three faces, but the third the spider godess is the true essence of Asha.
Modern wizards position: Gods, religion and mythology are for losers but necromancy is evil.
Avonu wrote:Knowing necromancy don't make you necromancer. Inquisitors should know demonology to fight back with it but are they demonologists?
Warlocks in HoMM2 know Necromacy - are they Necromacers?
Mages from HIV know Death magic - are they Necromacers?
Yes Sar-Elam practiced necromancy in the same fashion that mages from Heroes IV do. He was not a necromancer except in the absolute sense that he used it to some extent. The problem is that he taught it to his disciples as well, which the necromancers of Ashan developed upon.
The problem is the wizards denied that this was the case and suppressed those teachings. The necromancers however can still never-the-less claim a lineage from Sar-Elam in the same way that the wizards can.
In either case it doesn't matter, I have sufficiantly taken down one of the problems with Axeoth being Ashan in the future and badly weakened the credibility