Discussion of Ashan history

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » May 5 2011, 14:01

But there is actually some level of depth and ambiguity in H2's storyline, despite its simplicity and Good vs Evil premise. It's not that clean-cut.

I've seen people who debated over whether either of the brothers is honourable at all, whether the narrator could be propagandising Roland because he ended up as king, whether Archibald is actually the more suitable successor since his own father had basically tried doing the very same thing to take power (assassination), whether Roland's decision to fight for the throne caused far more suffering than Archibald ever could, why Archibald allowed Roland to live if he wins whereas Roland practically takes Archibald's life in his victory cutscene, etc, etc.

The main characters were also developed much further in sequels. If Archibald had won the war, the world would have been better off (he had the ability to kill off the Kreegans). Archibald showed a human side in MM7 whereas Roland's genocidal tendencies was seen in Armageddon's Blade. What's more, the H2 plot and dialogue made sense and was delivered well. There were no silly catchphrases or divine interventions to speak of.

That's a lot of subtext for a cheesy B-movie game from 1996. Whereas ten years later, in H5, the Demons are the villains and that's the end of it - don't ask questions. In its dubious "homage" to the Succession Wars plot ten years later, all we got was Rolf and Wulfstan screaming insults at one another now and then in one blandly-made filler map after another.

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » May 5 2011, 16:45

Mlai wrote:I happen to keep a tab on WH videogames. Mark Of Chaos and Shadow Of The Horned Rat are the only WH videogames that exist (barring that other MMO), and neither feature any DE.


Didn't the expansion for Mark of Chaos add DE mercs?!

Oh, looks like i'm wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l45mF7hNI3Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViY52ybgeQs

Maybe they where Dogs of War in the vanilla game.

Mlai wrote:The HOMM franchise's fundamental schtick is that it uses classic mythological and faery-tale creatures as its bestiary. As the Dark Elves are basically a Tolkienized version of the Unseelie Court, they cannot be depicted as honourable in order to appeal to "innovation."



The Unseelie Court was simply cruel to humans... that doesn't require them to also be un-honourable. Just look at Djinn's in arabic myth, or plenty of other creatures like them that would like nothing more then to kill/eat humans but still had to abide by some sort of code...

And btw, Heroes wasn't about that anyway, most of it's creatures where taken from D&D, and not straight from myth, which is why the Gorgon is a scaly bull and the Naga is a Marilith.

And 3rdly, the Dark Elves of WH wouldn't have fit in old Heroes at all, it's theme was way off.


H2 storyline was very cheesy.


I'll assume you mean that in the cliché way.

But it was certainly not GRIFFIN ETERNAL, Isabel is mentally challenged way H5 was.


Mlai wrote:Basically, even at the time when I bought H2 as a teen, I felt like I was playing a library fairy tale book, with library fairy tale book graphics. And it was great.


And H5 is nothing like that... so what's the attraction?
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!
I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €

Image

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » May 5 2011, 18:07

Corlagon wrote:why Archibald allowed Roland to live if he wins whereas Roland practically takes Archibald's life in his victory cutscene, etc, etc.

That's just preposterous. Archibald made his brother experience the lifetime of rotting in prison (we are even shown the montage of Roland thorugh the years of imprisonment), whereas Roland just put Archibald into "stasis", and when the future generations decide to elease him, Archibald would start practically from the same moment he was turned into stone. This happened in MM6. Besides, Roland is clearly more honorable than his brother, who practically usurped the throne.
If Archibald had won the war, the world would have been better off (he had the ability to kill off the Kreegans).

He hadn't. The only reason the invasion was stopped is because Falagar's students reactivated the Guardian, who instructed them on how to destroy the Hive. If Baa managed to complete their work of undermining the kingdom of Enroth and the Oracle, the Kreegan wouldn't have any opposition (Guardian was the real threat to them, and they made Baa basiclly to remove him). Archibald's Enroth would have been in pretty much the same situation as Roland's Enroth. If not worse, since Archibald would likely not return the Memory Crystals to Melian, thus dooming the planet.

Not to mention that Archibald is responsible for Melian not being able to destroy Kreegans himself: the unsuccessful attempts of his researchers to extract information from the Memory Crystals damaged the Guardian.
Archibald showed a human side in MM7 whereas Roland's genocidal tendencies was seen in Armageddon's Blade.

The problem wasn't in Roland's genocidal tendecies towards the Kreegan. There is nothing wrong with that, the Kreegans are terrible monsters draining entire planets of their resources and leaving lifeless wastelands behind them and were still trying to do the same to Enroth. The problem was hat Roland was starting to have dark hatred within him, which could even affect his sanity. But he was quick to sway from that path.

Besides, it is not corrct to speak of "Roland's genocidal tendencies", as it was the trait of his personality. He was held captive and tortured in horrible ways by monsters for seven years, something Archibald never experienced.
What's more, the H2 plot and dialogue made sense and was delivered well. There were no silly catchphrases or divine interventions to speak of.

Totally agreed. H5's story delivery was ridiculous at times, H2 was MUCH better.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Avonu
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 3854
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: City of Griffin
Contact:

Postby Avonu » May 5 2011, 18:22

XEL II wrote:Besides, Roland is clearly more honorable than his brother, who practically usurped the throne.


No true. Archibald is your true king and friend. Forever. ;)

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » May 5 2011, 18:23

Avonu wrote:No true. Archibald is your true king. Ever. ;)

He was never properly chosen. He murdered the Seers and bribed the new one, then framed Roland for the murders. Archibald was the usurper.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Avonu
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 3854
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: City of Griffin
Contact:

Postby Avonu » May 5 2011, 18:24

XEL II - install irony and sarcasm detector AT ONCE. :P

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » May 5 2011, 19:30

XEL II wrote:etc, etc, etc


Regardless of details, you prove my main point - H2 is just as debatable as the other games ;)

Darkström
Scout
Scout
Posts: 198
Joined: 30 Aug 2010

Postby Darkström » May 5 2011, 19:51

I think one of the main problems of Ashan is that every race has only one realm and the whole map looks rather small. It doesn't allow for big-scale, epic storytelling without getting repetitive.

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » May 5 2011, 20:11

Avonu wrote:XEL II - install irony and sarcasm detector AT ONCE. :P

I was just nitpicking there :)

By the way, it would be interesting to see what would Archibald (if he would have won the Succession Wars) do with the Memory Crystals when Enroth was invaded by the Kreegan. Melian was basically the only thing capable to defeat them. If Archibald decided not to return thr Crystals, that would bascially doom the planet.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » May 6 2011, 10:24

Corlagon wrote:
XEL II wrote:etc, etc, etc


Regardless of details, you prove my main point - H2 is just as debatable as the other games ;)


H5 is debatable (without Slayer levels of self delusion) now?
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
Mlai
Scout
Scout
Posts: 152
Joined: 08 Dec 2007

Postby Mlai » May 7 2011, 2:14

Aww, man... now I want Harpies in DE Dungeon too! Why didn't Nival finish the job right, and rip that off too?

But I guess all 7 tiers of Dungeon are good... nothing to replace... well, could have been a Neutral (recruitable in Dungeon campaigns).

User avatar
Slayer of Cliffracers
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 549
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Location: Gateshead, England.

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 7 2011, 19:20

ThunderTitan wrote: H5 is debatable (without Slayer levels of self delusion) now?


Really when will you all learn that you can't insult people behind their backs on a forum where they can read everything you say.

Heroes V game practically says (in the town bios) that it's Axeoth in the future and Heroes VI supports this conclusion with yet more evidence (and we haven't even got the game).

They apparantly can't remember anything at all before 1000 years ago, which bears into question the accuracy of their entire history scheme. Maybe I got a bit carried away with theorising as to how but I was never self-delusional.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... hp?t=11973

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » May 7 2011, 20:35

Ashan is not Axeoth. Ashan was created by Asha, Axeoth was created or colonized by the Ancients.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Qurqirish Dragon
Genie
Genie
Posts: 1011
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Flying the skies of Ohlam

Postby Qurqirish Dragon » May 8 2011, 13:30

XEL II wrote:Ashan is not Axeoth. Ashan was created by Asha, Axeoth was created or colonized by the Ancients.


And why can't Asha BE an ancient....? :devious:

Or maybe it is actually A.S.H.A: Another Simply Humorous Acronym. :-D
Matthew Charlap -353 HoMM map reviews and counting...

User avatar
Slayer of Cliffracers
Hunter
Hunter
Posts: 549
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Location: Gateshead, England.

Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 8 2011, 16:21

XEL II wrote:Ashan is not Axeoth. Ashan was created by Asha, Axeoth was created or colonized by the Ancients.


No they BELIEVE that Ashan was created by Asha.

And since these people can't even manage to remember what happened more than 500 years ago, what makes you think they exist.

More to the point, what makes you think that the dragon-gods actually exist and aren't a cynical ploy by the dragons to get people to serve them?
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.



http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... hp?t=11973

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » May 9 2011, 3:52

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:Or maybe it is actually A.S.H.A: Another Simply Humorous Acronym. :-D

I don't know what "humorous" you find in other acronyms from MM series, live Vehicular Astropod Research Nacelle (VARN), Central Research Observational Nacelle (CRON), Xylonite Experimental Expansion Nacelle (XEEN), S.H.E.L.T.E.M. and C.O.R.A.K. ;)
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
XEL II
HoTA Crew
HoTA Crew
Posts: 945
Joined: 14 May 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russian Federation

Postby XEL II » May 9 2011, 3:54

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:And why can't Asha BE an ancient....? :devious:

That would be rather insulting to the Ancients =\
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:No they BELIEVE that Ashan was created by Asha.

Official Ubisoft timeline also believes so, and it was written from the perspective of the writers, not Ashan inhabitants.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:More to the point, what makes you think that the dragon-gods actually exist and aren't a cynical ploy by the dragons to get people to serve them?

There are enough instances of Dragon Gods' actions to prove that they exist.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

User avatar
Qurqirish Dragon
Genie
Genie
Posts: 1011
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Flying the skies of Ohlam

Postby Qurqirish Dragon » May 9 2011, 13:34

XEL II wrote:
Qurqirish Dragon wrote:Or maybe it is actually A.S.H.A: Another Simply Humorous Acronym. :-D

I don't know what "humorous" you find in other acronyms from MM series, live Vehicular Astropod Research Nacelle (VARN), Central Research Observational Nacelle (CRON), Xylonite Experimental Expansion Nacelle (XEEN), S.H.E.L.T.E.M. and C.O.R.A.K. ;)


Fine, you won't take a joke for what it is (I DO know that the acronyms were technical).
How about this:
A.S.H.A.: Alternative Symbiotic Habitat Actuator.
The world is is designed to calibrate (thus an Actuator), a new (Alternative) environment (Habitat), designed around the connection between the creatures and thier "dragon gods" in a Symbiotic manner.
Matthew Charlap -353 HoMM map reviews and counting...

User avatar
Corlagon
Archangel
Archangel
Posts: 1421
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: HC/CH

Postby Corlagon » May 9 2011, 15:39

Anduran Supernatural Heurism Advancement Nexus

User avatar
Avonu
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 3854
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: City of Griffin
Contact:

Postby Avonu » May 9 2011, 16:20

Another Slayer's Humorous Argumentation. ;P

BTW - why do you think that Asha should be Guardian and not Urgash?
He could easy be this planet Guardian, protecting it from "inviding Army" of Asha - destroy "inviders" first, restore planet ecosystem later.. :D


Return to “Heroes V-VI”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests