Is Ashan Axeoth? Same hero or namesake?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby Corlagon » Jun 19 2011, 11:41

hatsforclowns wrote:Such disrespect towards Jon Van Caneghem


hatsforclowns wrote:Such disrespect towards Richard Dansky


Can you explain why you consider it disrespectful?

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Postby hatsforclowns » Jun 19 2011, 11:52

Corlagon wrote:
hatsforclowns wrote:Such disrespect towards Jon Van Caneghem


hatsforclowns wrote:Such disrespect towards Richard Dansky


Can you explain why you consider it disrespectful?


Putting words in other peoples' mouths.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 19 2011, 12:13

hatsforclowns wrote:So now it's not just people desperately trying to link VARN, CRON, Terra, and Enroth, and Axeoth in the original universe, now they're trying to link the two damn universes themselves!?

Such disrespect towards Jon Van Caneghem who gave birth to such a mgnificent world and series of games, the entire NWC crew who put their sweat, blood, and tears into the development of the games, the players who loved the games and gave them the priviledge of becoming legends.

Such disrespect towards Richard Dansky and his burdensome task of taking over after Caneghem, to mantle the throne of such a series, and fashion his own world and continuity, the new crew that works hard to make Dansky's passion reality, all the players, old and new, who have found a new home in the Ubiverse.

:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

PS. There is such a thing as "homage."


The disrespect is not mine, it's Dansky's. He was the one who while claiming the name and mantle of 'Might and Magic' pretty much set out to overwrite everything that Caneghem had created.

To add insult to injury the new team then copy characters from the earlier series while disregarding the continuity that would make this make sense at all.

Their original idea, that 'Ashan' is Axeoth in the far-future is what I think they should have stuck with but I would also be kind of okay with Ashan being a different planet in the same universe.

But calling something the same name, using the same characters (and concepts) and refusing to make any attempt at continuity is pretty low.
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Postby Corlagon » Jun 19 2011, 12:14

Whose mouths - JVC's and Dansky's? Why, Dansky couldn't stop harping on about how much he respected the classic MM stories in his dev diary - based on that I'm sure he'd be delighted for fans to try and connect his setting to those. And I don't know about Jon, but after the cliffhangers he left behind in H4 and MM8 you can be safe in saying he'd probably like to see his story and universe continued in some form.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 19 2011, 12:14

hatsforclowns wrote:So now it's not just people desperately trying to link VARN, CRON, Terra, and Enroth, and Axeoth in the original universe, now they're trying to link the two damn universes themselves!?

Such disrespect towards Jon Van Caneghem who gave birth to such a mgnificent world and series of games, the entire NWC crew who put their sweat, blood, and tears into the development of the games, the players who loved the games and gave them the priviledge of becoming legends.

Such disrespect towards Richard Dansky and his burdensome task of taking over after Caneghem, to mantle the throne of such a series, and fashion his own world and continuity, the new crew that works hard to make Dansky's passion reality, all the players, old and new, who have found a new home in the Ubiverse.

:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

PS. There is such a thing as "homage."


The disrespect is not mine, it's Dansky's. He was the one who while claiming the name and mantle of 'Might and Magic' pretty much set out to overwrite everything that Caneghem had created.

To add insult to injury the new team then copy characters from the earlier series while disregarding the continuity that would make this make sense at all.

Their original idea, that 'Ashan' is Axeoth in the far-future is what I think they should have stuck with but I would also be kind of okay with Ashan being a different planet in the same universe.

But calling something the same name, using the same characters (and concepts) and not making any attempt at continuity is pretty low.
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Postby hatsforclowns » Jun 19 2011, 13:11

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The disrespect is not mine, it's Dansky's. He was the one who while claiming the name and mantle of 'Might and Magic' pretty much set out to overwrite everything that Caneghem had created.

To add insult to injury the new team then copy characters from the earlier series while disregarding the continuity that would make this make sense at all.

Their original idea, that 'Ashan' is Axeoth in the far-future is what I think they should have stuck with but I would also be kind of okay with Ashan being a different planet in the same universe.

But calling something the same name, using the same characters (and concepts) and not making any attempt at continuity is pretty low.


3DO went belly up and Ubisoft bought all the rights, and as such, they are entitled to do whatever they please. Unfortunate, but that's reality.

I didn't like the Reckoning and whole move from general science fantasy to primarily Norse mythology (Enroth -> Axeoth), but even Caneghem decided to move on from the MM6-8 world and create a whole new world. Not too different from what Dansky is doing/has done.

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Postby XEL II » Jun 19 2011, 14:39

That Reckoning crap was sure as hell not JVC's idea.

Due to 3DO's financial crisis, the company needed to release new games as often as possible, practically one every year. After MM8, JVC (who was working on the initial build of HoMM IV at the time) didn't quite agree with this 3DO's policy and had very limited involvement with the games which were being made.

He had a limited role in development of HoMM IV and essentialy wasn't involved with Chronicles (which obviously affected the storyline and continuity of these campaigns) and MM IX. Warriors of MM and Shifters were also released in this time period (and weren't made by NWC).

At least, HoMM IV had interesting and well-written campaigns and confusing moments in Heroes Chronicles (the totally unexplained Ancestors) story were rare. Axeoth actually has continuity with the rest of MM universe, there are several references in MM IX (and the Ancients are mentioned right in the intro).

In 2003, JVC was back as the led designer working on MM X and HoMM V, but, unfortunately, 3DO went bankrupt. In one of his recent interviews JVC stated that, looking back, he must have bought the right to MM series when he could. So, I think trying to link Ashan with the rest of MM isn't disrespectful to him at all.
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Postby hatsforclowns » Jun 19 2011, 14:52

Oh, touche...and bummer, he really should have bought the rights!

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 20 2011, 22:53

hatsforclowns wrote:3DO went belly up and Ubisoft bought all the rights, and as such, they are entitled to do whatever they please. Unfortunate, but that's reality.

I didn't like the Reckoning and whole move from general science fantasy to primarily Norse mythology (Enroth -> Axeoth), but even Caneghem decided to move on from the MM6-8 world and create a whole new world. Not too different from what Dansky is doing/has done.


Your being entitled to do something is hardely the same as it being the right thing to do.

In other words hatsforclowns you really don't like Heroes of Might and Magic (never had any serious sci-fi elements in it at all). From my experience thus far the sci-fi elements are fairly decidedly low-key in the day to day experiance of the game-world thus far.

It's like you've got your everyday standard-issue fantasy world of pixies, elves, goblins and dwarves- then you find out some way along the way that it's all somehow to do with high-tech space aliens.

And then your aliens end up turning into just another kind of standard issue fantasy creature as happened to the Kreegans. And they is somehow still high-tech space aliens.

All this is quite amusing of course because in a sense one cannot cross sci-fi and fantasy without ultimately end up sacrificing one or the other. Either everyone must adopt the high-technology at which point it ceases to be fantasy at all or the high-technology must become so weak it is no longer believably high-tech at all.
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Postby XEL II » Jun 21 2011, 9:19

hatsforclowns wrote:people desperately trying to link VARN, CRON, Terra, and Enroth, and Axeoth in the original universe

Those worlds are already linked nice and fine with solid continuity.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It's like you've got your everyday standard-issue fantasy world of pixies, elves, goblins and dwarves- then you find out some way along the way that it's all somehow to do with high-tech space aliens.

No, it's not.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:And then your aliens end up turning into just another kind of standard issue fantasy creature as happened to the Kreegans. And they is somehow still high-tech space aliens.

Nothing like that ever happened to the Kreegan. They were high-tech malevolent aliens and have remained so. They are not demons.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby hatsforclowns » Jun 21 2011, 10:36

XEL II wrote:
hatsforclowns wrote:people desperately trying to link VARN, CRON, Terra, and Enroth, and Axeoth in the original universe

Those worlds are already linked nice and fine with solid continuity.


So you're saying New Sorpigal in MM6 is a colony of Sorpigal from MM1? Alamar, Alamos, Crag, Sandros, all the places and people with identical or similar names or appearances are in fact the very exact locations and persons, they just magically move around the universe, migrating, emigrating, immigrating, and conveniently happen to pass by a MIB neuraliser and promptly forget about their past lives?

The entire Sheltem-Corack debacle has explicit references to their travel across the worlds and the void, the gates and portals (the only thing that is a bit troublesome is that the logs on XEEN say the third spaceship with the adventurers actually crashed on XEEN, yet they still appear in MM7). Not ambiguously ambiguous ambiguities of ambiguiting ambiguous "hints" that could be interpreted a thousand ways.

The Ancients seeded the universe with worlds and lifeforms, so any world is automatically linked nice and fine with solid continuity, but that doesn't mean every single similar character is just hopping and skipping between worlds to get their Most Numerous Cameo Appearance Award.

If so, I would very much like you to explain the hopping and skipping in Final Fantasy, because by the Holy Sacred Flying Spaghetti Monster and His Holy Noodly Pastafarious Appendages, dem characters really got around.

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Postby XEL II » Jun 21 2011, 11:01

Could you dipense with all this unnecesary word babble and get to the point, when you're conveying you thoughts? Nothing wrong with it, really, it just sounds a little pretenseous.

I see noithing wrong with places and characters with similiar names. Our one planet Earth has enormous numbers of people, geographical locations and cities with same names. And in MM we're talking about planets located far away from each other.

For instance, two Sandros, two Alamars and two Crag Hacks and other several namesakes are clearly namesakes, since they have totally different storylines. New Sorpigal has nothing directly to do with VARN 4's Sorpigal (except maybe the similiarity that there could have been a town called Sorpigal on VARN MCMIV). Not to mention that the story istself is always continuous and seamless, that's what I was talking about in the first place.

As for mention of Lincoln burning up in the Clouds of XEEN atmosphere and teleporting the Ulimate Adventurers to the surface, it's either retcon or Sheltem's sensors were simply mistaken. The Adventurers saw Corak and Sheltem crash on the Darkside and, thinking the Guardians perished, set out on Lincoln to continue their search for the Ancients.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Corlagon » Jun 21 2011, 11:09

It's very clear even as early as the MM4 manual that the player characters in Xeen are not the same people as the Terrans.

The best guess is that whoever wrote Sheltem's log just didn't go back and check everything properly.

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Postby XEL II » Jun 21 2011, 11:21

Or, more likely, it was planned that the Ultimate Adventurers were on XEEN for some time between the arrival of Sheltem and the start of MM4 (about 8-10 months), separately from the player party (maybe even being the same adventurers from Newcastle who were killed by Lord Xeen). Either way, the heroes continuing their search in space was either a retcon or Sheltem's mistake.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » Jun 21 2011, 11:21

It's just "last minute" changes. Same for MM3 party - from intro we can assume it's same party which defeated Sheltem at CRON (and VARN 4 earlier) and now they are "rewarded" by visiting his planet but as we know, MM3 party is totally new.
Same for MM4-5 party. It was planned to be Terrans but something went wrong and they never landed on Clouded Side of Xeen.

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Postby XEL II » Jun 21 2011, 11:56

Actually, it was never established anywhere that MM3 party is the same party from CRON. MM3 doesn't have the transfer feature and in the intro Sheltem is talking to the player and Terrans i ngeneral (whom he view as 'invaders').
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 23 2011, 14:57

XEL II wrote:Nothing like that ever happened to the Kreegan. They were high-tech malevolent aliens and have remained so. They are not demons.


They are not demons but yet they are called demons? Hmmmmmmm.

You must live in a universe in which Heroes of Might and Magic never happened. A happy universe of tidy consistancy. ;).

They are not depicted as being anything but your standard issue fantasy demons except in Might and Magic games. So much that when I originally found out the Kreegans were aliens I was pretty surprised to say the least.

They even start acting like fantasy demons in Heroes of Might and Magic. Given that their stated biological purpose setting the world on fire with Armageddon's Blade (why not just nuke the planet from orbit?) make no sense at all.

The reasons are fairly obvious. You cannot really combine fantasy (low-tech) and sci-fi (high-tech) in a strategy game because a strategy game requires balance and there is no way to create a balance between sci-fi and fantasy without making the former look shoddy or the latter redundant.

XEL II wrote:I see noithing wrong with places and characters with similiar names. Our one planet Earth has enormous numbers of people, geographical locations and cities with same names. And in MM we're talking about planets located far away from each other.


Yes and that's kind of problematic, why would people on a different planet use the same names for cities or people which is neccesary for there to be namesakes? Obviously because they are the same culture, the Ancients took people from a single culture and distributed them across the universe (including on Ashan).

Whether the new Sorpigal is new to VARN 4's Sorpigal or to another Sorpigal on Enroth is ultimately decided by the question of whether the people of Culture X having been transported by the Ancients actually remember their origins or whether their memory is wiped.

If the former is the case the most likely explanation is that the old Sorpigal is on VARN 4. If the latter is the case then this is not so.
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Postby XEL II » Jun 23 2011, 18:16

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:They are not demons but yet they are called demons? Hmmmmmmm.

Calling them demons doesn't make them deons, is that so hard for you to understand and accept?
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:You must live in a universe in which Heroes of Might and Magic never happened. A happy universe of tidy consistancy. ;).

The consistancy is tidy enough even factoring HoMM in. It's a legit part of MM series.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:They are not depicted as being anything but your standard issue fantasy demons except in Might and Magic games.

In HoMM, we just get to see the Kreegan represented in only one unit. And the storyline in HoMM doesn't change the fact that they are from another world nor it denies any sci-fi features Kreegans have. It just shows small part of them. In MM VI, in our early encounters with the Kreegan, it is also hard to tell that they are highly advanced race.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:They even start acting like fantasy demons in Heroes of Might and Magic. Given that their stated biological purpose setting the world on fire with Armageddon's Blade (why not just nuke the planet from orbit?) make no sense at all.

Setting the world on fire is not their biological purpose and was never stated to be so. Kreegans aren't all that pyromaniacal, they just like fire for the reason that they are immune to highest teperatures. Armageddon's Blade was Kreegans' last desperate attempt to strenghten their forces on Enroth, after the invasion forces were defeated by Falagar's students (wo destroyed the Hive) and Lords of Harmondale (who destroyed Zenofex and Colony Zod).
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The reasons are fairly obvious. You cannot really combine fantasy (low-tech) and sci-fi (high-tech) in a strategy game because a strategy game requires balance and there is no way to create a balance between sci-fi and fantasy without making the former look shoddy or the latter redundant.

That's just your reasoning, and I don't get why you're telling yourself that. There is a good number of strategy games combining fantasy and sci-fi. And NWC were doing this nicely for AB, before several inbred retards send death threats.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Yes and that's kind of problematic, why would people on a different planet use the same names for cities or people which is neccesary for there to be namesakes? Obviously because they are the same culture, the Ancients took people from a single culture and distributed them across the universe (including on Ashan).

Whether the new Sorpigal is new to VARN 4's Sorpigal or to another Sorpigal on Enroth is ultimately decided by the question of whether the people of Culture X having been transported by the Ancients actually remember their origins or whether their memory is wiped.

If the former is the case the most likely explanation is that the old Sorpigal is on VARN 4. If the latter is the case then this is not so.

Nothing "problematic" here. There is no need to make some convoluted connections between Sorpigal of VARN 4 and New Sorpigal of Enroth. Cultures and races created and seeded by the Ancients are all very different, but they still have the same origin (in the Ancients), there could easily be some similar or same names.

BTW, Ancients didn't take cultures and distribute them, the races of MM worlds (except Kreegan and Elementals) were created by the Ancients (including angels, demons (who even guard places like Square Lake), genies, efreets, goblins, humans, elves, etc.).
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Postby Corlagon » Jun 23 2011, 18:36

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:They are not demons but yet they are called demons? Hmmmmmmm.


Yes. Correct. At last.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 24 2011, 20:43

XEL II wrote:Calling them demons doesn't make them deons, is that so hard for you to understand and accept?


That everyone in the universe sees fit to refer to them as demons or devils kind of suggests that it is incorrect to claim that's not what they are.

XEL II wrote:The consistancy is tidy enough even factoring HoMM in. It's a legit part of MM series.


You can always live in denial I suppose. It is obvious to me that there are massive differences in the way the Kreegans are depicted and their stated goals (if they have any) in both series.
In HoMM, we just get to see the Kreegan represented in only one unit. And the storyline in HoMM doesn't change the fact that they are from another world nor it denies any sci-fi features Kreegans have. It just shows small part of them. In MM VI, in our early encounters with the Kreegan, it is also hard to tell that they are highly advanced race.[/quote]

According to you they are only one unit. There is however no actual evidence to back up such a massive claim, no distinction is ever made between the Kreegans and the other demon creatures in the game that I am aware of. They are all referred to as Kreegans without distinction.

XEL II wrote:Setting the world on fire is not their biological purpose and was never stated to be so. Kreegans aren't all that pyromaniacal, they just like fire for the reason that they are immune to highest teperatures. Armageddon's Blade was Kreegans' last desperate attempt to strenghten their forces on Enroth, after the invasion forces were defeated by Falagar's students (wo destroyed the Hive) and Lords of Harmondale (who destroyed Zenofex and Colony Zod).


Yes Might and VI and VII.

Correct setting the world on fire is not the biological purpose of the Kreegans. That purpose is locust-like, to land, extract the resources of a planet and then move on. To that end they are quite willing to exterminate, decieve, backstab etc any troublesome locals that object to this (that is ultimately all locals).

Destroying the resources of the whole planet is not even an optional extra, it goes fundamentally against the biological purpose of the Kreegans. If they lose the war and are forced to retreat they can always come back better prepared (they are supposadly more advanced after-all).

If the Kreegans are so ruthless in eliminating anyone that stands in the way of their biological purpose then why would they ever elevate to kingship anyone who proposed even in jest to carry out such a plan?

XEL II wrote:That's just your reasoning, and I don't get why you're telling yourself that. There is a good number of strategy games combining fantasy and sci-fi. And NWC were doing this nicely for AB, before several inbred retards send death threats.


There are perhaps a number of strategy games that combine fantasy and sci-fi (other than Might and Magic I know of none) but this is obviously with the dire consequences I mentioned. The sci-fi either looks shoddy or the fantasy becomes redundant.

This is for obvious reasons. In the 19th Century the invention of machine gun finally put an end to any prospect of fantasy/medieval style technology and tactics could ever contend with modern methods of warfare. We who have now invented the sub-machine gun have yet to figure out how to manage intersteller travel. So basically to cast fantasy against sci-fi is far worse than casting medieval warriors against modern soldiers with sub-machine guns.

So yes I am very thankful for these 'inbred retards' and their 'death threats' for dissuading 3DO from ruining Might and Magic III.

If you combine sci-fi and fantasy in a strategy game, if the latter can contend with the former then the former becomes shoddy. While if the latter adopts the technology of the former, then it becomes redundant.

XEL II wrote:Nothing "problematic" here. There is no need to make some convoluted connections between Sorpigal of VARN 4 and New Sorpigal of Enroth. Cultures and races created and seeded by the Ancients are all very different, but they still have the same origin (in the Ancients), there could easily be some similar or same names.

BTW, Ancients didn't take cultures and distribute them, the races of MM worlds (except Kreegan and Elementals) were created by the Ancients (including angels, demons (who even guard places like Square Lake), genies, efreets, goblins, humans, elves, etc.).


If two cultures use the same names that means that they are closely related. Very closely related.

Names are intricately bound up with language. When a name is transliterated from one language to another (as often happens) it is usually changed/corrupted in some manner. For instance Karl in English and German becomes Carlos in Spanish.

For there to ever arise an exact namesake by chance then effectively requires the exact same language and thus consequently both cultures to obviously have a common origin in a single culture.

This does not require them to be culturally identical in other respects nor for them to use those same names with the same frequency (or even all the names), it just means their relationship is similar to that of America, UK, New Zealand and Australia.

What this means is that no convoluted explanation is simply needed. New Sorpigal's relationship to Sorpigal is about as convuluted as New York's relationship to York. The inhabitants of Enroth originally were transported from VARN 4 and some of them chose to name their city as the new version of a city back home.

However it all hinges on the question of whether the colonists to each planet as introduced by the ancients remembered their origins, did they remember their old lives or were their memories wiped and their past replaced with some hogwash mythological explanation similar to the stories that they believe in Ashan?
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