Is Ashan Axeoth? Same hero or namesake?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby ThunderTitan » May 25 2011, 6:10

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Postby XEL II » May 25 2011, 14:45

Who gives a rat's аss about TVTropes anyway :D
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 25 2011, 22:12

XEL II wrote:First of all, it's Morglin Ironfist, not Mauglin Ironfist. Second, he is from VARN 4, not XEEN.

And those aren't clones, they are namesakes. They're not related In HoMM 1-2 the vast majority of recruitable heroes are re-used characters from MM 1-5. Same with most random town names. These are just "guest characters" and easter egg tributes, HoMM 1-2 itself was an anthology of MM 1-5 os sorts.

Few of these characters were used in the plot of the games (such as HoMM 3, where heroes actually had their own storylines through their biographies) as namesakes of respective MM 1-5 characters. These characters are Yog, Sandro, Gem, Halon, Crag Hack, Alamar, Luna, Agar, Falagar and Lord Haart.


I can't really see how you can reconcile that position with holding that the earlier Might and Magic games are canonically valid sources for Might and Magic lore. If two characters have the exact same name, appearance and basic proffession then they must by default be the same character unless something rules out that possibility.

Given that Morglin Ironfist travelled between VARN 4 and Enroth through magical portals then what prevents the clone characters from doing so as well?
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 2 2011, 15:08

If two characters have the exact same name, appearance and basic profession


Yeah, because who ever heard about people with the same profession wearing the same type of clothes and having the same unshaven appearance...


XEL II wrote:Who gives a rat's аss about TVTropes anyway :D


EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 4 2011, 19:56

ThunderTitan wrote: Yeah, because who ever heard about people with the same profession wearing the same type of clothes and having the same unshaven appearance...


It is reasonable to assume that two people who have the same name and a similar appearance are the same person unless we have any concrete reason to think otherwise. If they have the same profession then more so. Admittadly we don't know what Ashan Crag Hack, Sandro and Solymr look like.

Crag Hack the barbarian.
Sandro the necromancer.
Solymr the legendary genie.

It is not likely that of all the other things the characters in Ashan could have been called and the limited number of mentioned characters fitting the bill all three names would appear.

If there were 1000 named mentions of genies, necromancers and barbarians then the above mentioned trio appearing in the name list would be probable. But there isn't.

Given that the characters are mentioned as living in the past and are remembered as legends then this fits the conclusion which is supported by the (accidentally canonical) town bio of Shuma-Ischun in the Heroes V Refugee campaign; which refers to long ago days and uses the word Axeoth. This conclusion is that Ashan is Axeoth in the distant future (like over 1000 years).

It could however also support the conclusion that said heroes arrived in Ashan by the same route that earlier heroes used to arrive in Enroth, magical portals.
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Postby Orfinn » Jun 7 2011, 14:11

XEL II wrote:He better be the Enrothian Crag Hack. And Ashan can be linked to the original universe in the story of how he got to Ashan.


Thats what I hope for too. Not only for Crag Hack but also for Sandro and all other old heroes mentioned in H5 and 6. Would be nice if some smartass found a universal portal deep under the earth of Axeoth (think Stargate etc), activated it and visited Ashan. One way to get across the Void, hmm? Void... the space between the solar system of Ashan and Axeoth, nebulae, the space between galaxies (Milky Way, Andromeda?) Hmm..

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 7 2011, 21:14

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:John the King.
James the smith.
Abdul the arab storyteller.



Yeah, those are totally unique names and professions...
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 8 2011, 14:18

ThunderTitan wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:John the King.
James the smith.
Abdul the arab storyteller.


Yeah, those are totally unique names and professions...


But appearing twice in exact same combination requires an explanation.

Because there are an aweful lot of other things the king, smith and storyteller could also be called.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 8 2011, 14:50

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Because there are an awful lot of other things the king, smith and storyteller could also be called.


Yeah, they're called synonyms...

And the only explanation needed is that those are common names amongst those also common professions...
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 8 2011, 19:40

ThunderTitan wrote: Yeah, they're called synonyms...

And the only explanation needed is that those are common names amongst those also common professions...


It doesn't actually matter how common the professions are, all that matters is the number of times they are referenced.

And the professions in question are hardely common. There aren't many heroes to start off with.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 9 2011, 6:22

Except that everyone with a name is a hero, while those that aren't usually don't have names unless they're direct servants of heroes...

And seriously, if you mention a guy named John is a blacksmith 50 times and another John is also a blacksmith but you only mention it once he's not the same guy? Great logic there...
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 9 2011, 21:37

ThunderTitan wrote:Except that everyone with a name is a hero, while those that aren't usually don't have names unless they're direct servants of heroes...

And seriously, if you mention a guy named John is a blacksmith 50 times and another John is also a blacksmith but you only mention it once he's not the same guy? Great logic there...


Yes and yet there are a great number of names. Few of these names are replicated without a serious similarity in their characters enough to indicate that they are the same character.

Axeoth Crag Hack is a barbarian, Ashan Crag Hack is a barbarian.
Axeoth Solymr is a legendary genie, Ashan Solymr is a legendary genie.
Axeoth Sandro is a great necromancer, Ashan Sandro is a great necromancer.

Statistically if another Crag Hack, Solymr or Sandro they will *probably* not do the same thing to the other. This is the most crucial thing, the least probable name for any new barbarian, genie or necromancer is the exact same thing as the last one.

If they are different characters it is extremely unlikely given all the other names a person doing said profession could be called they will be called the same name.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 11 2011, 23:09

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Statistically if another Crag Hack, Solymr or Sandro they will *probably* not do the same thing to the other. This is the most crucial thing, the least probable name for any new barbarian, genie or necromancer is the exact same thing as the last one.


I for one would like to see the population numbers and existing names database you base that statistic on...

Might as well say that the least probable name for a guy from a small island of the coast of France is John...
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 12 2011, 21:05

ThunderTitan wrote: I for one would like to see the population numbers and existing names database you base that statistic on...

Might as well say that the least probable name for a guy from a small island of the coast of France is John...


Are you really so thick you still can't actually figure out what I mean?

The population number is not relavant because all that matters is the number of incidences of named characters.

The most important variable is really whether the number of names is greater than the number of named characters or the number of characters greater than the number of names.

Because there are great number of names and only a relatively small number of characters the former is obviously the case. Thus it is obviously the case that the number of names is greater than the number of named characters.

Unless there are so many named characters fitting a certain description that it exceeds or equals the number of names, it is extremely improbable that there will be a duplicate. In other words.

Statistically a new legendary barbarian on Ashan will be called something other than Crag Hack.
Statistically a new legendary genie on Ashan will be called something other than Solymr.
Statistically a new legendary necromancer on Ashan will be called something other than Sandro.

The improbability increases the number of instances that appear together, in this case three.
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Postby Pol » Jun 12 2011, 21:37

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Statistically a new legendary barbarian on Ashan will be called something other than Crag Hack.
Statistically a new legendary genie on Ashan will be called something other than Solymr.
Statistically a new legendary necromancer on Ashan will be called something other than Sandro.

Out of curiosity, that's not exact. Surprisingly statistically you simply can't state that and even probability model may quite betray you in this case. Just a note, as many people never gave these situation a thought and blindly and wrongly assume that the things spin in that direction. They not.

In some probability cases, you can clearly say, that:
"Statistically a new legendary genie on Ashan will be called something like the Solymr."

And you will be right.

So just careful here, strange can be land of speculations. ;)
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jun 13 2011, 16:53

Pol wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Statistically a new legendary barbarian on Ashan will be called something other than Crag Hack.
Statistically a new legendary genie on Ashan will be called something other than Solymr.
Statistically a new legendary necromancer on Ashan will be called something other than Sandro.

Out of curiosity, that's not exact. Surprisingly statistically you simply can't state that and even probability model may quite betray you in this case. Just a note, as many people never gave these situation a thought and blindly and wrongly assume that the things spin in that direction. They not.

In some probability cases, you can clearly say, that:
"Statistically a new legendary genie on Ashan will be called something like the Solymr."

And you will be right.

So just careful here, strange can be land of speculations. ;)


:| :| :| Now I'm even more confused than I was when I wrote the original post. :| :| :|

There are indeed certain problems depending upon the frequency of the appearance of the various names. However they all depend upon the frequency of the names themselves.

On the rather unlikely event that both worlds are somehow using the exact same names, it is fairly clear that every time we pick up a character of the same name fitting the same description, we will also pick up a number of characters that do not fit the description at all but also have the same name.

Either they are common names or they are not. If they are common names we will find multiple instances of the names being used for other characters before they are used for a character fitting the description.

Where is the Crag Hack who is a not a legendary barbarian (on Terra I know :) )
Where is the Solymr is is not a legendary genie?
Where is the Sandro who is not a legendary necromancer?

duplicate post removed -QQD
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Postby hatsforclowns » Jun 19 2011, 7:49

So now it's not just people desperately trying to link VARN, CRON, Terra, and Enroth, and Axeoth in the original universe, now they're trying to link the two damn universes themselves!?

Such disrespect towards Jon Van Caneghem who gave birth to such a mgnificent world and series of games, the entire NWC crew who put their sweat, blood, and tears into the development of the games, the players who loved the games and gave them the priviledge of becoming legends.

Such disrespect towards Richard Dansky and his burdensome task of taking over after Caneghem, to mantle the throne of such a series, and fashion his own world and continuity, the new crew that works hard to make Dansky's passion reality, all the players, old and new, who have found a new home in the Ubiverse.

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Postby Humakt » Jun 19 2011, 9:38

I don't give a flying squat about lore. It is not something that has ever mattered in Heroes game for me. Following lore strictly is very restrictive and restrains innovation. Maybe M&M people might feel different but I'm not one of them.

If they want to do one campaign in a world WillitPuff with heroes named Jelly, Beans and Potato where they fight the evil cook Nutreous on imaginary dinner table, I'm all for it. As long as the gameplay is good, story is suitably well written, and the scenarios look and plays good.
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Postby hatsforclowns » Jun 19 2011, 10:34

Humakt wrote:I don't give a flying squat about lore. It is not something that has ever mattered in Heroes game for me. Following lore strictly is very restrictive and restrains innovation. Maybe M&M people might feel different but I'm not one of them.

If they want to do one campaign in a world WillitPuff with heroes named Jelly, Beans and Potato where they fight the evil cook Nutreous on imaginary dinner table, I'm all for it. As long as the gameplay is good, story is suitably well written, and the scenarios look and plays good.


Lucas Arts (among others) proved a long time ago that games don't have to be dead serious to be fun and awesome! Although having rich lore isn't necessary, if your game is focused on story -- and has or is supposed to have a long coherent continuity -- it certainly helps.

That's not really the problem though.

Imagine you wrote an awesome book, absolutely fantabuloustaticly awesome! So awesome, in fact, that you gave it to your friend and told her/him to read it! The next day you meet to discuss the book:

They: I loved the book!
You: Really, awesome!
They: Yes, I particularly liked the part with the giant mecha fighting the Martian aliens.
You: Wha...no...that was a toaster, the character was making toast...
They: No, no, no, that doesn't fit with the interdimensional portal that later opens up from which the Ded'f aliens invade. Not to mention the second book where the mecha is used to overthrow the Xikedx overlord.
You: No, w...what? I only wrote one book...Ded-no, it was just a bee that flew in when the character opened the window...em...
They: No, that doesn't fit with the 3rd edition guide that shows the schematics of the portal wit-...
You: But I haven't even publishesd the book!
They: ..-nd then the dreaded brainslugs from the prequel-...
You: Nuoooo!! No!
They: ...-nd so captain Picard and captain Kirk wrestled in the mud, drenched in swea-...
You: Blrwrwyuaarhghggaaarrargghh!!
They: ...-their mighty manhoods brushing against each oth-...
You: AAAAAAAARRGGGHGHHH!! LA LA LA NOT LISTENING LA LA LA!!!!

But you didn't write any of that, they're just making spoot up and trying to pass it off as your writing. Sharing is good, a little pirate socialism to encourage innovation and creativity. Sharing ideas, sharing the passions and dreams. But what you write is yours, and what they write is theirs. If they make a nice clone with their own interpretations and lore and stuff, great! But it's still theirs, and shouldn't pass it off as yours.

Simply put, don't put your words in other peopleses's mouths.

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Postby XEL II » Jun 19 2011, 11:24

hatsforclowns wrote:So now it's not just people desperately trying to link VARN, CRON, Terra, and Enroth, and Axeoth in the original universe

Why would they do that? Those worlds are already linked nice and fine wil solid continuity.

And I honestly don't see anyhting bad in trying to link Ashan with the old universe. It may very well be just another planet. Deciding to scrap the original MM universe was a horrendouesly dumb idea anyway.
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