Is Ashan Axeoth? Same hero or namesake?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 11 2011, 12:08

XEL II wrote:Most of this characters were just filling out the roster anyway. However, there are two Crag Hacks (Terran dwarf and Enrothian human), two Sandros (Xeen maintenance engineer and Enrothian lich), two Gems (Xeenian empath and Enrothian sorceress), two Yogs (Xeenian and Enrothian), two Agars (Varnling and Enrothian) and a few others. I don't see anything wrong with two persons on two distant planets sharing the same name. There are many namesakes on one planet Earth alone.


I don't know much about Xeen, as far as I am generally concerned Might and Magic lore begins in Heroes of Might and Magic I. Not a legitimate position though to hold. :) :) :)

Doesn't Mauglin Ironfist come to the world of Enroth from Xeen, the source that Corlagon quotes says so.

Lord Alamar started out as a benevolent lord on the world of Varn. The Guardian of Terra, Sheltim, came to Varn fleeing from Corak, his successor (also groomed to destroy him). Sheltim originally kidnapped Alamar to assume his identity. Sheltim began a reign of Terror from Castle Alamar. Whether the Heroes version of Alamar is a reincarnation or merely a person with a concidentally identical name is possibly never to be discovered as the series is no longer with New World Computing and the original designer. What is more confusing is that Lord Ironfist does not seem to draw a connection between the Alamar in Homm1 and the one from his homeworld of VARN.


I see the problem here.

"Alamar" had a revival on the World of Xeen, first revealed upon the defeat of Lord Xeen, the heroes whom defeated the undead monster learn that Alamar is behind the evil. Eventually, the adventurers help Corak to confront Alamar, whom reveals himself to be Sheltim. The fight ends in a draw with both him and Corak being destroyed. Thus the saga of the fake Alamar comes to a close.


Well what makes you so sure mr. source that Alamar was actually really slain at all? If Alamar is merely one of many then why would he specificially note his Xeen origin?
If Mauglin Ironfist manages to travel to Enroth from Xeen then the means to do so must exist, meaning that it is also likely that the other namesakes are the same characters as the one's in Xeen.
There are not many namesakes on planet Earth by the definition we are using. We are talking about two people who not only have the same name but also are absolutely alike in social standing, when that social standing is rather scarce and also look very similar to boot.

There are however two namesakes that I have been forced by the sheer weight evidence to admit are such. There is Yog and Sandro in Heroes III.
But Yog and Sandro in Heroes II/I are the same characters as the one's in Xeen, just as the Sandro in Heroes V is the same one as the SoD one. I will not have 3 Yogs and 4 Sandros.
Perhaps similar open portals exist between Axeoth and Ashan as between Xeen and Enroth. If it revealed that the characters mentioned travelled to Ashan by magical portals I will admit that Ashan and Axeoth are different worlds in the same universe.
But I am not going to conjure up magical portals out of thin air with no evidence in accordance to this particular trope.

A Wizard Did it

As it presently stands the most plausible and probable explanation given all the evidence is that Ashan and Axeoth are quite simple the exact same world, the former is the latter after over 1000 years. If the evidence changes then I will change my mind but any such evidence change will affirm both world's place in a common universe so I'm not bothered really.

Corlagon wrote:But it has to be Ethric from SoD due to the messy retcon. We discussed that in one of those crazy Slayer topics.

Don't you think over 25 years might be about enough to see the continent :P


It's funny that people with far less evidence than I have to claim that Sandro from Heroes II and Heroes III are different characters thus bringing the number of Sandro namesake's to the total massive number of 4 (given that Axeoth and Ashan are different worlds).

XEL II wrote:That doesn't make any sense at all. Enrothian Sandro is clearly a different character, he became lich after he ran away from his Wizard mentor Ethric around the time of HoMM I.

_____________________________________________________________
Corlagon wrote:But in Sandro's own words, Jeddite "introduced [him] to the power of magic". I think it's reasonable to say that this would be a contradiction if he had previously spent a few hundred years as the greatest sorcerer on Xeen.


Given that you are quoting the SoD Sandro which are different character's to the Enroth/Xeen one this is fairly irrelavant.

Gem also has a mentor called Amanda. Again she is a character from Xeen. The first Sandro has a mentor called Ethric THE MAD who is a warlock.

What makes you think that magic works the same way regardless of which world you're on? Could not magic be world-specific so a powerful wizard would have to re-learn lots of things upon arriving in a new world.

Afterall the magic in Heroes IV is quite different from that in Heroes III. Why not Xeen magic and Enroth magic?

Avonu wrote:...and I think we all agree bios says about Ethric the Mad not Ethric from SoD. Even in SoD IIRC Sandro bios was the same (can be wrong).
Also "been seen nearly all of Enroth" also take some time, more then suggested in SOD campaigns.


SoD Sandro is a human at this point and Ethric is travelling through Enroth with Sandro probably as little more than a boy. He has plenty of time to see most of Enroth because he has plenty of time to grow up. After Ethric ends up on the losing side of the succession war, he flees to Antagarich, taking Jeddite and Sandro with him. Sandro secretly studies necromancy against the will of his master and using the freedom eventually granted to him by Ethric as an adult he hatches a plot to aquire the items, since he is still human Gem and Sandro does not confuse him with the 'other Sandro'. This is why the plan works (and why he even approaches those heroes in the first place).

The other Sandro is a high-profile hero and leader of the armies of Warlocks in the first war (Heroes I) and the second (Heroes II). This Sandro came originally from Xeen through the same portal/portals which Mauglin Ironfist came through. Upon finding his power seriously diminished, he seeks the tutalage of the warlock Ethric the Mad. He disguises himself with illusionary magic to conceal his licheness but in the end he gets 'caught' by his master. But rather than being angry, his master is impressed and wishes to become a Liche himself. Thus he devises a means of creating Liches in Enroth and becomes a Liche himself. In time Sandro drops the disguise and appears openly as a Liche, he has apparantly 'become' a Liche according to the new ritual invented by his master. This happens obviously before Heroes I. He then becomes a Necromancer between Heroes I and II.
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Postby Corlagon » May 11 2011, 13:13

I will not have 3 Yogs and 4 Sandros.


Problem being that it simply isn't up to you, particularly considering you just confirmed that there is an enormous gap in your knowledge of the series. And if you consider four a massive number then good luck stomaching all the various incarnations of Crag Hack:

Crag the Hack (VARN 4) - MM1
Crag Hack (Terra) - MM3, MM7
Crag Hack (Enroth / Axeoth) - Heroes
Hack the Rogue (Four Continents) - King's Bounty
Crag Hack (Ashan)

It's funny that people with far less evidence than I have to claim that Sandro from Heroes II and Heroes III are different characters thus bringing the number of Sandro namesake's to the total massive number of 4 (given that Axeoth and Ashan are different worlds).


It's very unclear to me whether you're admonishing my stance or your own here, but it has been established that there are at least three Sandros:

Sandro of XEEN
Sandro of Enroth
Sandro of Ashan

...plus the fellow in Conquest of the Underworld, who may or may not be any of the above.

Anyway I recommend that this discussion be moved to the Might and Magic section since it has absolutely nothing to do with the Sanctuary.

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Postby Avonu » May 12 2011, 11:02

How is it, that any dicussion about Ashan lore always ends as discussion about NWC universe? :D

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Postby XEL II » May 12 2011, 11:22

Corlagon wrote:But it has to be Ethric from SoD due to the messy retcon.

This isn't really a retcon, just a clarification. Sandro studied Necromancy when he was under Wizard Ethric's tutelage, then ran away and became lich.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » May 12 2011, 11:27

...or maybe he studied necromancy with Ethric the Mad and after SW he came to Bracada, disguised as mage and become SoD's Ethric student to get information about Cloak of Unded and Armor of Damned artifacts from Wizards libraries?

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Postby XEL II » May 12 2011, 11:31

This is a bit stretched. SoD actually makes clear that Sandro was student of Ethric the Wizard. He ran away decades before the events of SoD.

By the way, there are only two Crag Hacks: Terran dwarf and Enrothian human. Crag the Hack is a similiar name, but it's not Crag Hack.

Tavern heroes roster in H1-2 is actually an anthology of MM 1-5. Same with random town names (these are game cities and castles from MM 1-5). Some characters were used as namesakes in the storyline.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » May 12 2011, 11:44

XEL II wrote:He ran away decades before the events of SoD.


Can you post that? I remember only that Ethric was Dungeon hero in game scenario and that he lived in Bracada (so another mess with him).
I don't remember right now more details and have some problems with SoD installing.

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Postby XEL II » May 12 2011, 12:07

Ethric also knew Warlock magic and some of his students (like Jeddith and, originally, Sandro) were Warlocks. Ethric lived in Bracada.

In Unholy Alliance campaign (during the mission Agents of Vengeance) Ethric informs Gem that Sandro ran away from him decades ago and became a Necromancer.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 12 2011, 15:21

Corlagon wrote:Problem being that it simply isn't up to you, particularly considering you just confirmed that there is an enormous gap in your knowledge of the series. And if you consider four a massive number then good luck stomaching all the various incarnations of Crag Hack:

Crag the Hack (VARN 4) - MM1
Crag Hack (Terra) - MM3, MM7
Crag Hack (Enroth / Axeoth) - Heroes
Hack the Rogue (Four Continents) - King's Bounty
Crag Hack (Ashan)


Yes there are massive gaps in my knowledge of the series, who do you think I am? You? But knowledge is not the same thing as insight, just because a person knows a lot doesn't really mean they neccesery have much insight into what they know.
Might and Magic I-V are like extremely primitive games anyway and of relatively little importance to the later story so have got by fine without knowing well anything about them upon- until now that is. :) :)

Crag the Hack and Hack the Rogue are not the same characters as Crag Hack, just people with similar names and in the latter case at least a completely different profession. There is only one Crag Hack unless you can produce evidence about the background of the Enrothian Crag Hack that either rules out that possibility entirely or makes it's extremely improbable.

Given that we know nothing about Enrothian Crag Hack's ultimate background, it possible that the Terran Crag Hack ended up trapped on Enroth by some means or another. This is made likely by the fact that we know that a means to travel 'accidentally' between worlds exists and allowed Roland Ironfist to travel from Xeen to Enroth.

When Enroth is destroyed Crag Hack flees to Axeoth. Since Ashan *is* Axeoth in the future he is remembered as a legendary figure in Ashan. There is only one Crag Hack and he is of Terran origin not four.

If Crag Hack were to actively appear in an Ashan based game then while this would prove that Ashan is *not* Axeoth but would still not prove that there is anything but one Crag Hack.

Corlagon wrote:It's very unclear to me whether you're admonishing my stance or your own here, but it has been established that there are at least three Sandros:

Sandro of XEEN
Sandro of Enroth
Sandro of Ashan

...plus the fellow in Conquest of the Underworld, who may or may not be any of the above.

Anyway I recommend that this discussion be moved to the Might and Magic section since it has absolutely nothing to do with the Sanctuary.


I am pointing to the sheer contradictoryness of disagreeing with my claim that the Sandro from Heroes III and Sandro from Heroes II are different characters and then holding that the very same character has three versions. I mean if you're going to argue in the face of so many problems that the two characters are the same, then surely you do in order to mantain some kind of basic unity!

It's been established? Established by whom?

XEL II wrote:Ethric also knew Warlock magic and some of his students (like Jeddith and, originally, Sandro) were Warlocks. Ethric lived in Bracada.

In Unholy Alliance campaign (during the mission Agents of Vengeance) Ethric informs Gem that Sandro ran away from him decades ago and became a Necromancer.


Since when did people always write the truth in letters? Ethric tells nothing incriminating to Gem (such as the fact that Sandro studied necromancy under his tutalage), he is concealing his full responsability even if he is telling the truth. If Sandro tricked Gem under his tutalage (which he did) then he is responsible for it. But we've had this discussion before.

Sandro's biography says that he first studied necromancy under the tutalage of Ethric. But while Heroes I Sandro is a Liche he is not a necromancer meaning that this story simply cannot be true.

XEL II wrote:This isn't really a retcon, just a clarification. Sandro studied Necromancy when he was under Wizard Ethric's tutelage, then ran away and became lich.


Sandro is a Liche before he ever studied Necromancy (between Heroes I and Heroes II). Yet in Heroes I he is a Warlock AND a Liche.

This would mean that an Ethric who hates necromancy would have to allow his student to become a Liche yet object to his studying necromancy!

It is pretty obvious that the two cannot be the same characters. Given that Sandro is already a powerful high-profile necromancer hero in Heroes II, it also explains why Gem and Crag Hack are so easily tricked despite the fact that they should know who he is and why Sandro dares approach them.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 12 2011, 15:22

Corlagon wrote:Problem being that it simply isn't up to you, particularly considering you just confirmed that there is an enormous gap in your knowledge of the series. And if you consider four a massive number then good luck stomaching all the various incarnations of Crag Hack:

Crag the Hack (VARN 4) - MM1
Crag Hack (Terra) - MM3, MM7
Crag Hack (Enroth / Axeoth) - Heroes
Hack the Rogue (Four Continents) - King's Bounty
Crag Hack (Ashan)


Yes there are massive gaps in my knowledge of the series, who do you think I am? You? But knowledge is not the same thing as insight, just because a person knows a lot doesn't really mean they neccesery have much insight into what they know.
Might and Magic I-V are like extremely primitive games anyway and of relatively little importance to the later story so have got by fine without knowing well anything about them upon- until now that is. :) :)

Crag the Hack and Hack the Rogue are not the same characters as Crag Hack, just people with similar names and in the latter case at least a completely different profession. There is only one Crag Hack unless you can produce evidence about the background of the Enrothian Crag Hack that either rules out that possibility entirely or makes it's extremely improbable.

Given that we know nothing about Enrothian Crag Hack's ultimate background, it possible that the Terran Crag Hack ended up trapped on Enroth by some means or another. This is made likely by the fact that we know that a means to travel 'accidentally' between worlds exists and allowed Roland Ironfist to travel from Xeen to Enroth.

When Enroth is destroyed Crag Hack flees to Axeoth. Since Ashan *is* Axeoth in the future he is remembered as a legendary figure in Ashan. There is only one Crag Hack and he is of Terran origin not four.

If Crag Hack were to actively appear in an Ashan based game then while this would prove that Ashan is *not* Axeoth but would still not prove that there is anything but one Crag Hack.

Corlagon wrote:It's very unclear to me whether you're admonishing my stance or your own here, but it has been established that there are at least three Sandros:

Sandro of XEEN
Sandro of Enroth
Sandro of Ashan

...plus the fellow in Conquest of the Underworld, who may or may not be any of the above.

Anyway I recommend that this discussion be moved to the Might and Magic section since it has absolutely nothing to do with the Sanctuary.


I am pointing to the sheer contradictoryness of disagreeing with my claim that the Sandro from Heroes III and Sandro from Heroes II are different characters and then holding that the very same character has three versions. I mean if you're going to argue in the face of so many problems that the two characters are the same, then surely you do in order to mantain some kind of basic unity!

It's been established? Established by whom?

XEL II wrote:Ethric also knew Warlock magic and some of his students (like Jeddith and, originally, Sandro) were Warlocks. Ethric lived in Bracada.

In Unholy Alliance campaign (during the mission Agents of Vengeance) Ethric informs Gem that Sandro ran away from him decades ago and became a Necromancer.


Since when did people always write the truth in letters? Ethric tells nothing incriminating to Gem (such as the fact that Sandro studied necromancy under his tutalage), he is concealing his full responsability even if he is telling the truth. If Sandro tricked Gem under his tutalage (which he did) then he is responsible for it. But we've had this discussion before.

Sandro's biography says that he first studied necromancy under the tutalage of Ethric. But while Heroes I Sandro is a Liche he is not a necromancer meaning that this story simply cannot be true.

XEL II wrote:This isn't really a retcon, just a clarification. Sandro studied Necromancy when he was under Wizard Ethric's tutelage, then ran away and became lich.


Sandro is a Liche before he ever studied Necromancy (between Heroes I and Heroes II). In Heroes I he is a Warlock AND a Liche.

This would mean that an Ethric who hates necromancy would have to allow his student to become a Liche yet object to his studying necromancy!

It is pretty obvious that the two cannot be the same characters. Given that Sandro is already a powerful high-profile necromancer hero in Heroes II, it also explains why Gem and Crag Hack are so easily tricked despite the fact that they should know who he is and why Sandro dares approach them.
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Postby Corlagon » May 12 2011, 16:08

There is no problem if you don't know the entire history of the series, how many times can I express that. It's just that it's no fun when you make up "insights" to fill those gaps in and then argue and argue with everyone who tries to explain if and where your understanding is flawed... I mean, why bother :P

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 13 2011, 13:27

Corlagon wrote:There is no problem if you don't know the entire history of the series, how many times can I express that. It's just that it's no fun when you make up "insights" to fill those gaps in and then argue and argue with everyone who tries to explain if and where your understanding is flawed... I mean, why bother :P


When have I ever done such a thing? I have always revised and even changed my understandings of Ashan Lore in accordance with any newly aquired information. Indeed everything I write is basically based upon what all the information I have available at the moment means when taken together.

The key element here is taken together. Because the Might and Magic series has no single author/creator that determines everything that is written according to a single vision there are many contradictions between sources which require plenty of theorising in order to solve amicably by filling in the gaps.

This is done according however not arbitrerily but according to a definite method. Key elements of this method are
Death of the Author and avoiding A Wizard Did it and Contrived Coincidences. I seek the most probable explanation that involves the fewest extra-mundane elements and don't care much for the opinions of the authors unless they have actually bothered to write them into the story decisively enough.

I do not believe Infallible Babble though, this is why I mentioned decisively enough. I do not consider every written source to be accurate unless it is in accordance with all other factors in the story without requiring massive Contrived Coincidences.

The reason that both SoD and Heroes II Sandros are not the same character as for some insane reason people given the general content of all the sources seem to be willing to hold is that there is no way this can be the case except via extremely elaborate theories involving plenty of contrived coincidences and sheer Hand Waving.

1. Ethric and Jeddite have to be willing and able to to search for Sandro for decades WITHOUT finding him despite the fact that he is a high-profile public figure leading armies and in no sense really hiding from anyone.
2. Given Sandro would become a Liche before he becomes a Necromancer, (he is a Liche and a Warlock in Heroes I but not a Necromancer) this would require him to be still under Ethric's tutalage during Heroes I. This would mean that he would have become a Liche under the necromancy hating Ethric's tutalage before he ever became a necromancer.
3. Sandro faught in both the Succession Wars (Heroes II) and the original war of Enrothian unification (Heroes I) as a hero, as did both Crag Hack and Gem. It is next to impossible given the limited number of heroes in each game that Sandro has not encountered or even dealt with either of these heroes before and that they would not recognise him.
4. Given the above it is extremely unlikely that Sandro would even attempt to approach them given that there are plenty of other heroes around who are quite capable of carrying out the task who are native to Antagarich and won't likely know who is his.
5. Vidomina flirts with Sandro in the first mission of Rise of the Necromancer which suggests he is not a liche yet because this worries him when all he would have to do would be to reveal his true form if he were already a liche.
6. If Sandro is already a powerful Liche and Necromancer, why does he even need to hire Gem given that all the items he needs are in the vicinity of Deyja which he should be able to operate from fairly easily.

If Sandro is actually a human wizard's apprentice and only lying about the intent for which he is collecting the artifacts then it all makes sense. Gem and Crag Hack would be fooled easily because they have met the other Sandro and know that this boy is *not* him. The human Sandro who has already secretly studied necromancy at the same time as well as committing other misdeeds including raping people's daughters, secretly appropriates the artifacts for himself but is discovered meaning that he is forced to flee during 'term-time'. He is then confronted by Jeddite and Ethric after a certain period of time but defeats them. Between missions 2 and 3 of Rise of the Necromancer he becomes a Liche and arrives in Deyja a serious force.

The other Sandro is a sorcerer from Xeen who is already a Liche and travels through the portal which Roland Ironfist uses and ends up trapped in Enroth. He fights in both wars and upon the end of the Succession War remains in Enroth(continent) where he remains until he perishes in the Reckoning.

Yes Ethric does say that Sandro ran away decades ago but to automaticly accept this statement as canonically true is to assume Infallable Babble. What it is said by a character is not neccesarily true or accurate. Given that Ethric reveals a version of information that is less personally incriminating than the above story (or Sandro's bio), it is quite probable that he is lying to Gem. Again if he had revealed he studied necromancy under his tutalage (novel incriminating information) then this would be another case entirely.
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Postby Corlagon » May 13 2011, 13:57

But how about this: instead of revising and changing your theories in the messiest way possible (arguing with everybody in the H6 forum), play the games and acquire all the information before starting up a debate based on flawed and/or missing info.

I mean, you're quoting TVTropes and the MM wiki to support your case, but how about quoting credible sources like the games or the games' storywriters. Where did the games or writers say Ashan is Axeoth? I know at least two who say it isn't!

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 14 2011, 15:18

Corlagon wrote:But how about this: instead of revising and changing your theories in the messiest way possible (arguing with everybody in the H6 forum), play the games and acquire all the information before starting up a debate based on flawed and/or missing info.


Earlier Corlagon wrote:There is no problem if you don't know the entire history of the series, how many times can I express that.


I am presently enough engaged *in* playing the games Corlagon, if I'm not presently playing the games I tend not to post here. Hammers of Fate is like a brilliant story, I really am enjoying it very much.

You said before that it is no problem if I don't know the whole history and now you seem to be insisting that I must know the whole history before discussing anything. I thought the whole point of debating here is that all our positions are necceserily based upon flawed and/missing info not least because not all the games have even been made yet.

Corlagon wrote:I mean, you're quoting TVTropes and the MM wiki to support your case, but how about quoting credible sources like the games or the games' storywriters. Where did the games or writers say Ashan is Axeoth? I know at least two who say it isn't!


I am not quoting TVTropes to support my case, I'm quoting it to reveal the basis upon which my decisions are being made about Might and Magic lore based upon the sources. That is how the games info is interpreted and read by me.

Why does everyone seem to have amnesia when it comes to the sources that I am using. The sources from the games in support of Axeoth and Ashan being the same world are as following.

1. Crag Hack is mentioned by Isabel during the 1st Campaign but no Crag Hack character appears in the game. So he is a character in the perhaps distant past that has become a legend.
2. Solmyr is mentioned to Zehir by Narxes during the 6th Campaign but no Solymr character in the game. Zehir mentions that he is legendary genie, which fits very well with his Heroes IV/III self.
3. Sandro is mentioned in the bios of several characters as their instructor in necromancy and he is described in the Lorekeep bio as dying the 'final' death there. This indicates he is already undead which suggests that he is the same character as the Axeoth/Enroth one.
4. A large number of town bios mention Axeoth, old kingdoms like Aranorn and even the character Emilia Nighthaven. This is most definite evidence that Axeoth and Ashan are the same world.
5. Tawni Solace is mentioned in the bio of the Heroes VI Kenshi unit as being a pirate queen from long-ago. Given the small number of queens and the small number of pirate monarchs to start together with the fact that Solace is a word that means something definate and could be an adopted title (like Nighthaven) it is most probable that this is Tawni Balfour the pirate queen from Heroes IV.
6. The official timeline seems to begin with Sar-Elam's coming into contact with Asha herself. They have only scraps of information as to what goes on before this date means that "they don't know they aren't Axeoth". Indeed such an achievement such as Sar-Elam's could only have happened in a pretty advanced society well-versed in magic- it could easily enough be the Order faction of Heroes IV.

Taken together then there is presently plenty of support from within the games and related information for the concept that Ashan and Axeoth are the same world, the former is the latter over a thousand years in the future.

Indeed that one of the town bios uses the term Axeoth in relation to an event (the split between dark elves and light elves) which happens during the timeline era, this would suggest that the inhabitants of Ashan know that the word Axeoth means Ashan, but that this is an archaic term that has fallen into disuse.
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Postby Corlagon » May 14 2011, 15:54

But it's silly to take a few possible hints and call that fact. It makes for a nice theory, but now the burden of proof lies with you if we are to take it seriously. Where did the games or writers say Ashan is Axeoth?

Would you like my proof that it isn't Axeoth? Most of it is in emails, but here is some that is public:

[...]it’s time for Dorothy to ride the dark whirlwind and leave the gentle light-hearted fantasy of Axeoth behind. Ahead lies a world of blood and shadows[...]


Are you again going to try and convince everyone that the developers of the setting are wrong and that you are right? :devious:

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 15 2011, 13:56

Corlagon wrote:But it's silly to take a few possible hints and call that fact. It makes for a nice theory, but now the burden of proof lies with you if we are to take it seriously. Where did the games or writers say Ashan is Axeoth?

Would you like my proof that it isn't Axeoth? Most of it is in emails, but here is some that is public:

Quote:
[...]it’s time for Dorothy to ride the dark whirlwind and leave the gentle light-hearted fantasy of Axeoth behind. Ahead lies a world of blood and shadows[...]


Are you again going to try and convince everyone that the developers of the setting are wrong and that you are right? devious


The town bios quite explicitly say that Ashan is Axeoth Corlagon. It's thus more than a few clues, even though given the number would indeed be enough on their own. Not only does the evidence point in that direction, the word Axeoth is explicitly used in the place of Ashan in several town bios. One of them (Mensyl) refences an event which happens within the Ashan timeline (but not the Axeoth one) that is the split between the dark elves and the light elves. So I have all the proof I need.

Richard Dansky's opinions do not hold weight here simply because the Might and Magic series has No Author. Others have sat in Richard Dansky's place before and others will in future.

In the abscence of any single individual with their own consistant vision of the whole series from Might and Magic I to Heroes VI there is simply no way that there can be any single intent or interpretation for all the innumerable creators, so while in general I would not completely agree with the theory of Death of the Author (it is a theory not just a TV Trope) in this particular instance it is the correct method to use.

This means that the words of the authors cannot ever be taken as Word of God because none of their intentions can be the intention of every single author at the time of the writing.

The Might and Magic universe was and is created by a number of authors and not all of these authors even know about the canon written by other authors, let alone their intentions. Thus obliviously writers happily run into elements of eachothers canon all the time; for examples think about the way that Heroes IV canon about the Kreegans runs into earlier Might and Magic canon; or the way that the original campaign of Sandro's (Rise of the Necromancer) runs into the both later campaigns and the earlier existance of Sandro.

It's rather simple really, if the collective of the authors asserts something with unity then then that should be an unambiguous feauture of canon within the work itself. If Erwan le Breton fails to make it so that Heroes V unabiguously establishes itself as a seperate world, then this likely truly reflects the at least initial lack of consensus among the authors intentions.

So to attempt to use Word of God against Canon in this way is nonsensical because if that were truly the authors intention all along then they would not create these problems, the works would unabiguiously reflect their intent.

Indeed an author cannot erase the meaning of the words of a completed work he originally wrote and their intention even if he should later wish that he had not written them. J.K Rowling for instance cannot at some later date decide that Harry Potter didn't find the Chamber of Secrets and Gildroy Lockheart despite being a fraud vanquished the basilisk and was the hero and still be credible.
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Postby Corlagon » May 15 2011, 14:46

I ask again: where did the games or writers say Ashan is Axeoth?

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Postby XEL II » May 15 2011, 15:49

Don't try it, it's hopeless. The guy has TVTropes for logic and reason.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby XEL II » May 15 2011, 15:56

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Richard Dansky's opinions do not hold weight here simply because the Might and Magic series has No Author.

It has. The author of Might and Magic is Jon Van Caneghem, and he was consistently writing and shaping the lore (co-working with other developers and writers on it) up until Heroes Chronicles, HoMM IV and MM IX, when he wasn''t in charge of making games for a while. But even then, the games' storyline was consistent (and there's nothing really contradicting with earlier lore in Heroes IV information bout the Kreegan), and JVC was going to be i ncharge of MM series once again when the development of MM X and HoMM V started. To sum up, JVC was the author of the original Might and Magic.

The author of Ashan is Richard Dansky, and his words are valid source of information on Ashan, whether you like it or not.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 16 2011, 13:35

Corlagon wrote:I ask again: where did the games or writers say Ashan is Axeoth?


Re-read my earlier post, I have already told you where the games specifically say that Ashan is Axeoth, that is the town bios. And games don't write themselves Corlagon.

If you want some very specific evidence I will show you something that references Axeoth very specifically or rather the old elven kingdom of Aranorn in relation to an event which happens WITHIN the Ashan timeline.

This is very easy to access because it is the town Finden starts off with the beginning of the 1st mission of the his campaign. It's the town of Damlad.

Town Bio wrote:When the king of Aranorn decided to eliminate the dark elves, Damlad became the last frontier of the future exiles. The defenders put a spell on the town towers, bestowing on them the rage of the besieged. This allowed the Dark Elves to hold the town and force the Aranorn king to sign the Exodus treaty.


This is clearly referencing an event that does not occur within the Heroes IV timeline and which does appear within the timeline of Ashan (Heroes IV or Might and Magic IX), that is the following event.

Ashan Timeline wrote:566 YSD.
Day of the Tears of Fire – Death of Tuidhana
A massive fire burns down the Elven capital. The High King Arniel dies in the flames with most of his court. Brythigga, the Mother of Trees, sacred to the Elves, is also consumed by the fire, leaving a blackened scar on the earth where nothing would ever grow again. The loss is devastating.
The Dark Elves are blamed and offered exile or death by Arniel's son, Vaniel. Most choose exile; the rest are hunted down and destroyed without mercy. Tuidhana remains with her lands and is killed.
The place where Brythigga had stood was stricken from the maps, and to this day no elf will go there. Another Mother of Trees has been consecrated, hidden deep within the forests, but no Elf will speak of her to outsiders.


Although these are random town bios, the town in question is located in the campaign map near the borders of the Griffon Empire, which is described by Lord Caldwell as 'lightly populated and forested'. This fits with the indications of it being Tuidana's realm along the borders of the Griffon Empire. The Exodus Treaty was signed between King Vaniel and presumably the defenders of Damlad. It is the offer of death or exile that is mentioned in the timeline.

Since it is also establishes that Irollan was still reffered to as Aranorn around that time, it also establishes that Irollan is Aranorn in the far-future and thus also that Ashan is as well given the references in other bios to Axeoth directly.

XEL II wrote:Don't try it, it's hopeless. The guy has TVTropes for logic and reason.


Blame ThunderTitan not me. He introduced me to TVTropes.

XEL II wrote:It has. The author of Might and Magic is Jon Van Caneghem, and he was consistently writing and shaping the lore (co-working with other developers and writers on it) up until Heroes Chronicles, HoMM IV and MM IX, when he wasn''t in charge of making games for a while. But even then, the games' storyline was consistent (and there's nothing really contradicting with earlier lore in Heroes IV information bout the Kreegan), and JVC was going to be i ncharge of MM series once again when the development of MM X and HoMM V started. To sum up, JVC was the author of the original Might and Magic.

The author of Ashan is Richard Dansky, and his words are valid source of information on Ashan, whether you like it or not.


Yes that is the point. Jan Van Ceneghem did originally invent the Might and Magic universe but he ceased to be an author within the universe that he created and was one of many authors even back them. That is to say that the Might and Magic universe as a whole has effectively no single individual that can claim to be the creator of all of it's canon: meaning that the universe now has no author. I don't quote TVTropes for nothing, there are Tropes dealing with exactly this situation.

Yes there is a definate contradiction between JVC and Heroes IV about the Kreegans. JVC fairly clearly held that the Kreegans on Enroth had been wiped out, hence Might and Magic VIII's storyline: this while Heroes IV has Kreegans in it as part of both game and storyline. A certain Might and Magic IX source with admittadly somewhat less credibility also has the Kreegans attack Enroth before the Reckoning happens.

We've had this discussion before; the point is any resolution to this requires the positing of unreferenced events (that is theories not canon) in order to solve it. If there was complete harmony between Heroes IV and Might and Magic VIII we would not have been having that discussion at all.

The reason this all matters is that an author's intentions only matter AT THE TIME OF THEIR WRITING OF THE WORK! As I have said before: If J.K Rowling (a definate single author) said that Harry Potter had not killed the basilisk in the chamber of secrets then this would not change the canon of Harry Potter one bit. The reason that it is clear and unabiguious from the text that Harry Potter killed the basilisk.

The opinions of the lead author or even all the authors about a creative work cannot not hold weight in the face of the clear meaning of the work or else the ridiculous situation above mentioned about Harry Potter would be the case: J.K Rowling could indeed make it canon that Gildroy Lockheart killed the basilisk without rewriting Chamber of Secrets to say that he did.

Since it is pretty strongly established the Ashan is the same world as Axeoth in Heroes V; Richard Dansky's words in this instance really do mean about as much in this instance as the delusional J.K. Rowling above mentioned. If he is truly the author (again he is one of many) he had his chance back when he was making Heroes V to make it a completely different world.

He also had/has plenty of time to practice damage limitation in later works by clearly explaining the relationship between Axeoth and Ashan (that they are different worlds) in his works and explaining the origin of certain characters as being from that world.
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