Is Ashan Axeoth? Same hero or namesake?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jul 12 2011, 13:00

ThunderTitan wrote: Sure, i mean he couldn't have been making a point about kreegans being destructive or trying to instil in the heroes how much of a threat they are by invoking something familiar etc...

Because that's what you thought of 1st that must be it...

Jeez you're getting boring... at least try to come up with something new...


I see your patience is growing short Thunder Titan. Why the irritation, you don't have to reply when you don't want to.

The heroes already know the kreegans are destructive and are a threat long before they meet Melian. So that's obviously not it.

Funny thing is though that I did actually bring in something new. I mentioned the Heroes V demons and raised the question of how exactly do they fit into the scheme. I was going to go on in greater length about it but decided that the post was already long enough.

My old theory was that the Ancients planets are threatened not only from space by the 'kreegans' but also by indigenous demonic creatures which come from the Fiery Realm, the 'Anti-Space' opposed to material reality and seeking to 'unify' it into itself, planet by planet.
The Ancients had set up an initial defense system against the demons of the Fiery Realm preventing them from materialising on the material realm except perhaps on terms that are strictly controlled. We know (from Heroes IV) that it is possible to open up a portal to a Fiery Realm planet by destroying an item that is 'connected' to it in some way.
The Kreegans initial landing (as depicted in Might and Magic VI) destroys the asteroid-spacecraft that they use to travel the stars, given that the planet from which said object is already under the domination of the Kreegans (and thus a Fiery Realm) this could quite feasibly create portals to that planet similar to the one in Heroes IV. This is supported by the statement of Falagar that "since the arrival of the devils foul creatures and evil spirits have appeared throughout the land"
What the demons/kreegans are doing is sort of similar to what Hitler did with the Maginot line, going around the Ancients 'fortifications' rather than through them.

But where do the demons of Heroes V/VI fit into this picture. Could not Ashan be an example of a world where the Ancients defenses against demonic incursion are greatly damaged? What Sar-Elam did was 'patch up' the damaged defense system with the Skull of Shadows. He took the hole in the fabric of the defense network, 'folded it' and so turned it into a funnel of sorts into a prison world of his creation, that is Sheolg. Sheolg is neither the material world or the Fiery Realm, it is somewhere in the middle. What the demons want is not so merely to gain access to Ashan; they just turn the areas they control into an extension of Sheolg anyway, they want to restore contact with the Fiery Realm and thus with Urgash/the Creators.

Taking that Ashan is Axeoth's future then perhaps what Gauldoth did in Heroes IV had wider consequences that he did not understand and did not come to fruition in the time-frame of Heroes IV. The Ancient era (Heroes IV onwards) sees the crusade of the Angels (Life faction?) against the Faceless (Death faction?) and thus affords the demons the ability to emerge and build up their strength in 'uninhabited places'. Given the Faceless obviously lost the war and Nekross is obviously aligned to them, with the destruction of Nekross in that war, it became uninhabited and fell into the hands of the demons.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 13 2011, 18:31

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:I see your patience is growing short Thunder Titan. Why the irritation, you don't have to reply when you don't want to.


Well it's hard not to be bored when all you do is the same thing over and over...

You get an idea and then try as hard as you can to set up a situation where everything fits with it, even if it's clear to everyone that it's not the only possible way things could have gone down...

And then you declare every other possibility as less likely, as if if a coin falls on one side 52% of the time then the other side, with it's 48% chance doesn't exist.

PS And it's patience is growing thin.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The heroes already know the kreegans are destructive and are a threat long before they meet Melian. So that's obviously not it.


Yeah, just like no one put up danger signs on gas containers because everyone knows what gas is...
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jul 15 2011, 19:46

ThunderTitan wrote: Well it's hard not to be bored when all you do is the same thing over and over...

You get an idea and then try as hard as you can to set up a situation where everything fits with it, even if it's clear to everyone that it's not the only possible way things could have gone down...

And then you declare every other possibility as less likely, as if if a coin falls on one side 52% of the time then the other side, with it's 48% chance doesn't exist.

PS And it's patience is growing thin.


Generally discounting extremely improbable events is how to stay sane when dealing with reality (or non-reality). Because there are usually a number of improbable chains of events- as many as you can imagine. And in my case that could be a lot of possibilities. :creative: :creative:

But it's really not my job surely to go through all possible explanations? If people don't like my explanations it isn't my job to make their arguments for them. How can it be?

ThunderTitan wrote: Yeah, just like no one put up danger signs on gas containers because everyone knows what gas is...


A hungry tiger and poison gas are both deadly to human beings but that doesn't mean that they resemble eachother. I take your point about different explanations but that explanation simply doesn't make any sense.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 15 2011, 21:00

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Generally discounting extremely improbable events is how to stay sane when dealing with reality (or non-reality).


They're only extremely improbable because you deemed them so... and usually for reasons that aren't very extreme...

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:A hungry tiger and poison gas are both deadly to human beings but that doesn't mean that they resemble eachother. I take your point about different explanations but that explanation simply doesn't make any sense.


And yet here you are comparing them... looks like it wasn't such an improbable comparison after all.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Jul 31 2011, 18:32

ThunderTitan wrote: They're only extremely improbable because you deemed them so... and usually for reasons that aren't very extreme...


Yes I do not have a calculator of fictional world event probabilities handy so yes they are only improbable because I have deemed them so.

I deem it is extremely improbable given the limited number of named characters in Heroes V/VI that Yog, Crag Hack and Sandro 'clones' should exist (that is characters with the same name fitting the same description).

There are number of variables involved so it is rather complicated. If there were for instance a large number of characters and a large number of 'improbable' names then none of this would be the case.

ThunderTitan wrote: And yet here you are comparing them... looks like it wasn't such an improbable comparison after all.


Two things being alike in one respect do not indicate that they resemble eachother unless you are specifically reffering to that particular factor.

In the context of the statement about the nature of the Kreegans the resemblance is obviously general. Taking that Melian is talking about the general resemblance between the Kreegans and the 'demons' then this means that they resemble eachother overall and not merely in a single respect (being dangerous).
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 26 2011, 18:08

So, how about showing me those oh so complicated numbers... let's see if i still remember my junior high math...
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Postby Tress » Sep 26 2011, 20:57

You realize that last post was 2 month ago? Also for some reason I believe that this topic was better of being buried. Digging out topic that contains words ashan/axeoth/same in same sentence is rarely good idea.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 26 2011, 21:03

Do you realise that's because i haven't posted for 2 months, right?

But relax, i'm not really into the "discussion" any more, i'm just having a last laugh...
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Postby Avonu » Sep 30 2011, 13:42

Sad but true - I have to agree with Slayer of Cliffracers.

In HVI we have such cities as: Twilight, Darkmoor, Spyre, Mist, Dragadune and so on. How people of Ashan could named their towns that if they aren't decendents of Enrothians who escaped to Axeoth? These are names of Enrothian cities after all.
It can't be just a reference to please old fans, can it?

Please, read Thunder Titan's signature first. ;)

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 2 2011, 9:10

Avonu wrote:>> Twilight<<


OMG, that so explains why Ashan vampires are so white...
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Postby XEL II » Oct 2 2011, 14:06

ThunderTitan wrote:
Avonu wrote:>> Twilight<<


OMG, that so explains why Ashan vampires are so white...

Shadowspire ones, rather.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Soronarr » Oct 18 2011, 12:47

MEh....I lost all interest in the Hereos universe after the story/setting started becoming horribler and horribler (I dont' care if it's not a proper word).

I wouldn't be surprised is they said the planet thy are on is created from soya beens from antoher dimension.

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Postby XEL II » Oct 18 2011, 15:21

Avonu wrote:These are names of Enrothian cities after all.

But Dragadune is castle from VARN 4! :D
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » Oct 18 2011, 16:33

...and generic town name in HoMM1-2.

BTW - in PoL campaign I one of city was named Avone. :D

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Postby XEL II » Oct 18 2011, 16:58

Avonu wrote:...and generic town name in HoMM1-2.
As you probably know, that's a placeholder, like heroes roster. Although it's, of course, possible that there are towns like Dragadune and Sorpigal (one of Enroth's six main cities is New Sorpigal) on the continent of Enroth. After all, some of the easter egg heroes (Sandro, Yog, Gem, Falagar, Agar and a few others) were given their own backstories as "Enrothian incarnations" of sorts to their MM 1-5 namesakes in later games, too.

But wait, it all makes sense now! The castle was transported to Enroth along with Morglin Ironfist. There, the city was built around it. When the Reckoning came, Dragadune was transported to Axeoth... which later became Ashan! See, how could we have been so blind? :D
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark


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