Is Ashan Axeoth? Same hero or namesake?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Avonu
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Postby Avonu » May 6 2011, 18:04

You will probably see Crag Hack himself too (hint: Harpy bio).

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Postby XEL II » May 6 2011, 18:33

He better be the Enrothian Crag Hack. And Ashan can be linked to the original universe in the story of how he got to Ashan.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby mr.hackcrag » May 7 2011, 5:22

XEL II wrote:He better be the Enrothian Crag Hack.


Yes, he better or else I'm going to hurl a Crag at the developers homes and Hack their lawn ornaments. :proud:

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 7 2011, 19:24

XEL II wrote:He better be the Enrothian Crag Hack. And Ashan can be linked to the original universe in the story of how he got to Ashan.


Ashan *is* Axeoth. :devil: :devil:
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Postby XEL II » May 7 2011, 20:34

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Ashan *is* Axeoth. :devil: :devil:

Proof? I know about that bio, it's just e remnant of the early stages of development. Anything in the game storyline to support this notion?
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby theLuckyDragon » May 8 2011, 5:29

The two devil smilies make me take that affirmation playfully, not seriously...
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Postby Romanov77 » May 8 2011, 8:17

Can't wait to see the new clean shaved babyface emo anime influenced Crack Hack :D
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Postby Corlagon » May 8 2011, 10:56

XEL II wrote:Proof? I know about that bio, it's just e remnant of the early stages of development. Anything in the game storyline to support this notion?


Don't worry, it's already explicitly denied by Ubisoft and just about everyone who isn't Slayer:

Heroes of Might & Magic IV
A massive explosion destroys Erathia. However, refugees manage to flee through a portal to another world, Axeoth, a land waiting to be divided and conquered.

Heroes of Might & Magic V
In a new world, Ashan, Queen Isabel‘s wedding is interrupted by a Demon belonging to the warlord Agrael’s army. Against the protests, Isabel raises an army to fight Agrael.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 8 2011, 16:14

XEL II wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Ashan *is* Axeoth. :devil: :devil:

Proof? I know about that bio, it's just e remnant of the early stages of development. Anything in the game storyline to support this notion?


That Solmyr, Crag Hack and Sandro appear in the game reference, Crag Hack twice already. Tawni from Heroes IV (the pirate queen hmmmm) appears as Tawni Solace in the unit description of Kenshi/Nagas for Heroes VI, while Crag Hack appears again.

Combined with the bios to the effect that not only is Ashan Axeoth but there are entire historical events which aren't part of the official history of Ashan, such as the great plague that covered all of Axeoth.

Look at Tawni Solace as well.

Challenge(Basic & Upgrade): "It was as if time stood still... and there was only him and me in a cloud of slashing steel and a mist of invigorating blood."This entry in the diary of the pirate queen Tawni Solace tells of a fierce battle with Nagas at sea. It is the first record she is the first to speak of the challenge of the Kenshis. Once one of these valiant warriors crosses swords with a chosen enemy, it is difficult to attack anyone else but him.


So Tawni Solace the pirate queen (how many pirate queens can there be, let alone one's called Tawni) is also the first historical source, that is to say she is a character from the ancient history of Ashan, she is the first record they have access to of fighting Nagas/Kenshi. Something else to consider here.
* The current reckoning of years in Ashan is YSD – Year of the Seventh Dragon. All dates are reckoned from the day when the legendary prophet Sar-Elam achieved enlightenment and underwent apotheosis, becoming known as the Seventh Dragon. Before that, little is recorded, though it is certain, from the ruins of ancient civilizations that dot the landscape, that Ashan is thousands of years old.


The inhabitants of Ashan don't know that they are Axeoth. They can't know because mysteriously enough they don't historically remember very much past about 500 years ago. Asha is also obviously derived from the word Asha, which is their name for the god of order. So the use of the name Ashan for the 'world' may well be a religious renaming.

There is the small problem of three elements of the official storyline which contradict the concept of Ashan being Axeoth, these are.

1. The origin of necromancy- Necromancy is invented by Belketh.
2. The origin of the orcs- Orcs are created from humans by injecting demon blood.
3. The origin of the beastmen- Beastmen are created by the wizards in 512.

http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Nec ... r_%28H5%29

It is revealed by this document that problem 1 does not exist, the official timeline is actually concealing a truth that was uncomfortable to the wizards, that Necromancy just as much a valid part of the legacy of Sar-Elam as the 'good' magic the wizards use. Indeed why did you think that Naadir was so keen to get an uncorrupted copy of the teachings of the Seventh Dragon- because the wizards were corrupting and falsifying history to make their cause look better.

Given that all the problems are wizard related and we know that the wizards have falsified at least one of the problems already to make them look better, why should we trust that the official history hasn't been falsified about the orcs and the beastmen?

Is it really plausible that they had at one point the godlike power to create whole new races of intelligent creatures, achieved in the course of one year and not demonstrated ever since for several hundred years? Is it really plausible that these creatures could have multiplied fast enough in a mere 50 years to form a viable part of the armies of so many factions?

Are we truly supposed to believe that in 512 they achieved virtual godhood and then lost it again?

Corlagon wrote:Don't worry, it's already explicitly denied by Ubisoft and just about everyone who isn't Slayer:


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... fTheAuthor.

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Postby Corlagon » May 8 2011, 20:00

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Ubisoft is irrelavant, only the content of the work matters.


No offence, but once again, I must express frustration at your obtuse and bizarre interpretation of what continuity actually is. I think it is quite fair to say the creators of Ashan will be the judge of whether their world is Axeoth.

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Postby XEL II » May 9 2011, 3:58

Of course, in fanfiction one can make Ashan being Axeoth in the future, but in canon there's really nothing to believe so.

And Tawni solace has nothing to do with Tawni Balfour, aside from the first name. My first name is Aleksander, and there are zounds of people with this name across one planet Earth.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » May 10 2011, 12:53

Corlagon wrote:No offence, but once again, I must express frustration at your obtuse and bizarre interpretation of what continuity actually is. I think it is quite fair to say the creators of Ashan will be the judge of whether their world is Axeoth.


It is their responsability as the creator of the work to make it clear in the work that something is not the case WITHIN the work. If they want there world not to be Axeoth then they shouldn't make references within the game to the effect that it becomes the most probable interpretation.

Since the creators of the work in this case are only out to make franchising money and obviously don't care I see little reason to take much notice in this particular case even if I might give some weight to an author's opinions otherwise if they are plausible.

They wish to make money out of the franchise, to do this they exploit old names and old concepts in order to establish a sense of continuity, yet they do not wish to upset the applecart by actually establishing formal continuity because they might get something wrong and annoy the fanbase's established conceptions about the game-world's nature. Call it "wanting to have your cake and eat it too".

Add to this that I would hardely recognise the property claims of such parasitic capitalist entities anyway due to my communistic political opinions. :creative: :creative:

XEL II wrote:Of course, in fanfiction one can make Ashan being Axeoth in the future, but in canon there's really nothing to believe so.

And Tawni solace has nothing to do with Tawni Balfour, aside from the first name. My first name is Aleksander, and there are zounds of people with this name across one planet Earth.


And the fact she's a pirate queen. How many pirate queens are there? Solace is a name like Nighthaven, it is a word with a definate meaning. Something a person might adopt or be granted by their supporters, this is likely because Nighthaven means something and was granted to Emilia.

The number of queens is limited to start with because the number of kingdoms is limited. Most of those will be ruled by kings, further reducing the number of queens.

Then consider that pirate and king/queen are pretty much exclusive terms, Queen Elizibeth I got involved in plenty of piracy but since those involved are called privateers she is not reffered to as such.

So pirate queen can only refer to the leader of an unrecognised criminal entity that possess de-facto control over an area or to someone with a background in piracy that became queen. In the first case it is unlikely (but still possible) that historical records would recognise her as a queen because those doing the history recording are most probably living in some form of monarchy and wouldn't want to draw paralells.

Next hurdle is the fact that although pirates might rise to royalty, most pirates are male and an even greater percentage of pirates of status will be. So in the unlikely event that there arises a pirate monarch- in all probability it will be a pirate king not a pirate queen. Compare this to the number of nobles that fail to produce a male heir for their estates.

In the face of this if both on Axeoth and Ashan a pirate queen manages to arise what is the odds that they will both have the same first name? What is the odds that on two completely different worlds they will both even use the name Tawni anyway?

By itself it is possible that two pirate queens might independantly arise by a fluke coincidence on two completely different worlds (if Solace didn't have a meaning I would accept they are different even while claiming they are the same world); but this is just one of the problems. I really have nearly all the actual evidence on my side here.

1. Tawni Solace the Pirate Queen.
2. Solymr the legendery genie
3. Crag Hack the barbarian killing machine.
4. Sandro the necromancer.
5. The town bios reference Axeoth and old kingdoms and characters including Emilia Nighthaven.
6. Most of the names used in Heroes V (Nicolai etc) are the exact same names used in earlier games somewhere. Indeed one character is called Zoltan and Zoltan is a default Might and Magic VI character.
7. Nobody can seem to remember what happened 500/1000 years in any orderly way. This strengthens 5 meaning that the only actual reference to what went on back then is found in the town bios.

None of these pieces of evidence would amount to much taken alone, but taken together they pretty much establish that Axeoth and Ashan are the same world.
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Postby Corlagon » May 10 2011, 16:01

what is the odds that they will both have the same first name? What is the odds that on two completely different worlds they will both even use the name Tawni anyway?

By itself it is possible that two pirate queens might independantly arise by a fluke coincidence on two completely different worlds


How do I put this... er... "U funny", so to speak. :P Read up on the series a little more.

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Postby XEL II » May 11 2011, 5:41

Most of this characters were just filling out the roster anyway. However, there are two Crag Hacks (Terran dwarf and Enrothian human), two Sandros (Xeen maintenance engineer and Enrothian lich), two Gems (Xeenian empath and Enrothian sorceress), two Yogs (Xeenian and Enrothian), two Agars (Varnling and Enrothian) and a few others. I don't see anything wrong with two persons on two distant planets sharing the same name. There are many namesakes on one planet Earth alone.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » May 11 2011, 6:07

XEL II wrote:two Sandros (Xeen maintenance engineer and Enrothian lich)

He was the greatest sorcerer on Xeen before becoming lich and die there. His Dungeon was more of Easter Egg then actual Xeen location so don't try to tie all game aspects with Ancients.
Besides Dark Side has Guadian to do that job - Dragon Pharaoh.

Personally I think that this Sandro somehow came to Enroth after his will for (un)life came back with his heart. ;)

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Postby XEL II » May 11 2011, 6:10

Avonu wrote:
XEL II wrote:two Sandros (Xeen maintenance engineer and Enrothian lich)

He was the greatest sorcerer on Xeen before becoming lich and die there. His Dungeon was more of Easter Egg then actual Xeen location so don't try to tie all game aspects with Ancients.
Besides Dark Side has Guadian to do that job - Dragon Pharaoh.

Dungeon of Death actually has storyline, and Sandro himself mentions. [SPOILER] In the lowest level papers "telling about World of XEEN maintenance schedules" can be found.
Avonu wrote:Personally I think that this Sandro somehow came to Enroth after his will for (un)life came back with his heart. ;)

That doesn't make any sense at all. Enrothian Sandro is clearly a different character, he became lich after he ran away from his Wizard mentor Ethric around the time of HoMM I.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Avonu » May 11 2011, 6:20

XEL II wrote:That doesn't make any sense at all. Enrothian Sandro is clearly a different character, he became lich after he ran away from his Wizard mentor Ethric around the time of HoMM I.


I don't think so. He became lich long ago and is skilled in illusion magic - he probably fooled his Antagarich "mentor" from the begining.

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Postby Corlagon » May 11 2011, 9:17

Avonu wrote:I don't think so. He became lich long ago and is skilled in illusion magic - he probably fooled his Antagarich "mentor" from the begining.


But in Sandro's own words, Jeddite "introduced [him] to the power of magic". I think it's reasonable to say that this would be a contradiction if he had previously spent a few hundred years as the greatest sorcerer on Xeen.

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Postby Avonu » May 11 2011, 9:29

Yes but his bio says:

Sandro first studied Necromancy under the tutelage of the wizard, and later the lich, Ethric. Sandro has seen nearly all of Enroth and Erathia, and now serves Finneas Vilmar, leader of the Necromancers of Deyja.

...and I think we all agree bios says about Ethric the Mad not Ethric from SoD. Even in SoD IIRC Sandro bios was the same (can be wrong).
Also "been seen nearly all of Enroth" also take some time, more then suggested in SOD campaigns.

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Postby Corlagon » May 11 2011, 10:10

But it has to be Ethric from SoD due to the messy retcon. We discussed that in one of those crazy Slayer topics.

Don't you think over 25 years might be about enough to see the continent :P


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