No Blackies = please no Dungeon

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Zenofex
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Postby Zenofex » Feb 13 2011, 8:53

I wouldn't support the idea of a Black Dragons made equal with the Pit Fiends and some Angel plebs, they have always been a symbol of power. Their position in Heroes III was the best for me - very strong monsters with unique tactical application but still couldn't win against some of the other tier 7s in 1:1 fight (Archangels, Arch Devils, problems against Behemoths and Titans).
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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 13 2011, 11:11

Zenofex wrote:I wouldn't support the idea of a Black Dragons made equal with the Pit Fiends and some Angel plebs, they have always been a symbol of power. Their position in Heroes III was the best for me - very strong monsters with unique tactical application but still couldn't win against some of the other tier 7s in 1:1 fight (Archangels, Arch Devils, problems against Behemoths and Titans).


They might as well be stronger in a 1v1 scenario. Why not? Appropriately balance the rest of the faction. As far as math goes, the H3 Dungeon lineup was lacking in almost every department until Black Dragons came in the equation.
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Postby Corlagon » Feb 13 2011, 12:48

sezerp wrote:There are many dragons but only 7 dragon-gods. Similarly, there can be many black dragons but only few really old, smart and powerful and those are too independent to serve anybody. You can have (black) dragons as troops and, at the same time, _The_ Black Dragon as a boss, with his/her own name, story and so on.


Well I really don't want to see some flaccid, watery Dragon Eel at a tier more powerful than any kind of Black Dragon, and I doubt I'm alone in that. Nor would I want to see Black Dragons saturating two slots as a boss and a neutral; even that much is overkill.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 13 2011, 15:18

H2 had it right... Black Dragons as the only 3rd upgrade, making him the most powerful unit in the game... and the only Dragon in a faction...
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Postby Zenofex » Feb 13 2011, 16:04

and the only Dragon in a faction...

The Bone Dragons? ;)

They might as well be stronger in a 1v1 scenario. Why not? Appropriately balance the rest of the faction. As far as math goes, the H3 Dungeon lineup was lacking in almost every department until Black Dragons came in the equation.

Actually the Heroes III Dungeon has one very good line up even without the dragons - two archers with no melee penalty which are accessible early, very nice hit-'n-run creature and excellent damage-dealer, although rather expensive. Their biggest problem is the insane building cost of the last three creatures, particularly the Manticore which does not deserve even half of the resources spent on its building and of course the dragons which need Mage Guilds.
They could indeed be powerful creatures with low growth or something but as Carlagon said it will still look a bit stupid when they are compared to other dragons which are actually bosses. The Black Dragon is THE Dragon, every other fire/acid/something-breathing iguana should be inferior to it.
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Postby Kalah » Feb 13 2011, 16:44

There were lots of dragons in H5, but since this is a prequel, who's to say there will be any?
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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 13 2011, 16:50

Zenofex wrote:
and the only Dragon in a faction...

The Bone Dragons? ;)


Well it's still a black dragon, just dead...

And obviously in H6 the giant spider lady already replaced it.
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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 13 2011, 18:21

Kalah wrote:There were lots of dragons in H5, but since this is a prequel, who's to say there will be any?


Agreed there were too many in H5 but that's no reason to cut a core unit from a core faction.
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Postby Neidhaart » Feb 13 2011, 19:11

Aren't dragons called wyrms when they're really really old?
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Postby mr.hackcrag » Feb 13 2011, 20:36

I think they're just called old dragons, but depending on how formal the party is, they might be called elder dragons or old lizard.

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Postby sezerp » Feb 13 2011, 22:15

Zenofex wrote:The Black Dragon is THE Dragon, every other fire/acid/something-breathing iguana should be inferior to it.


Perhaps they should, but they aren't :-P

H3: Azure Dragon, Rust Dragon
H4: Megadragon

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Postby Zenofex » Feb 14 2011, 8:45

Yes, and also Crystal and to some extent even Faeries Dragons in Heroes III. They are all rare though, you can almost forget about their existence. When people are saying "strongest dragon" they usually think "Black Dragon". This is so since Heroes II.
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Postby MattII » Feb 14 2011, 10:06

Yes, the 4 super-dragons of H3 and the 1 of H4 are more powerful than the Black, but as Zenofex said, are also rare, and IMO count as the first proto-bosses more than normal creatures (taking a dwelling for example requires a reasonably large army, due to the fact that even the slowest and weakest of them is faster than anything but the Firebird/Phoenix and Archangel, and has over 60% more hp than any tier 7 (but less attack and defence).

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 14 2011, 11:55

sezerp wrote:H3: Azure Dragon, Rust Dragon
H4: Megadragon


Yeah, those sucked too... the expansions neutral's where always underwhelming, and in H3's case had crappier art too (the Dragons where better then the rest though).

Of course i guess as boss type things the Azure at least had a useful spot.
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Postby Aerosoldier » Feb 14 2011, 18:42

I just want my beloved Titans with the "Hate Black Dragons" ability!

It was great before coz my Cousin favorite town is Dungeon so we stayed in my home all night to play an XL map with my brother too!

Now i can't finish a normal map in Heroes V lol!
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Postby Neidhaart » Feb 15 2011, 12:53

Oh, i remember those odd dragons too. and i never really liked them.
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Postby Thelonious » Feb 15 2011, 16:01

Euhm, what about the red and green dragons... well... I'd better not even opt this... :ashamed:

Anyways if the Black Dragons are in the game, I won't miss 'em as creatures in a line-up. Just as I miss a Titan if it would appear as a massive boss (truely scaled!)

I think they did good in removing the devils and bone dragons and renaming the angels. They could've done better in regards to the behemoths.

As long as they replace the blackies with something fitting and not just randomly adding some sort of spellcaster which is only to put more racial line-ups in the game.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 17 2011, 11:56

What's the point of having hell as a faction without Devils in it's line-up... annoying.
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Postby Neidhaart » Feb 17 2011, 17:45

ThunderTitan wrote:What's the point of having hell as a faction without Devils in it's line-up... annoying.


Yeah, if you have angels, why not devils.
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Postby Aerosoldier » Feb 17 2011, 21:06

What's the point of an Inferno faction when you alredy have Necropolis?

1 evil faction is enough!
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