No Blackies = please no Dungeon

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No Blackies = please no Dungeon

Postby Infiltrator » Feb 11 2011, 21:06

The devs are reconstructing a lot of factions. Notably, Necro lost the Bone Dragons and Inferno lost the Archdemons as their top tier units.

Coupled with the Dark Elven lore Dungeon got paired up with in H5, and with the sex themes in games today, there's a reasonably high chance that if Dungeon does come up they'll end up having some Matriarch spin-off as the top tier unit.

If this happens, please rename the faction to Dark Elves or something. Blackies are too iconic to be missing out of the Dungeon.
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Postby Dex » Feb 11 2011, 22:12

I totally agree with you. The Black Dragon became a symbol of the series and has always been linked with Dungeon. No Black Dragons = no Dungeon.

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Postby Kalah » Feb 12 2011, 0:13

What about blackies as neutral creatures?
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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 12 2011, 0:25

Kalah wrote:What about blackies as neutral creatures?


Wouldn't make sense. The Black Dragon to Dungeon is what the Lich is to Necro, or the Gryphon to Haven. I'm the first guy that wouldn't like the unit lineup to be the same in each sequel but I also firmly believe some creatures pretty much define certain factions.

The entire concept of dungeon relies on you to have the Blackie, a strong, fast, magic immune flyer that is the complement to the spell arsenal at your disposal.. The rest of the units should and often have influence, but in the end most of the fights are decided by smart (or stupid) use of spells and the Blackie.
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Postby mr.hackcrag » Feb 12 2011, 3:51

Infiltrator wrote:The devs are reconstructing a lot of factions.


:disagree:

Infiltrator wrote:Gryphon to Haven.


I never understood what connection griffins have with humans. Seems completely out of place to me.

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Postby Zenofex » Feb 12 2011, 8:53

The Black Dragon to Dungeon is what the Lich is to Necro, or the Gryphon to Haven

I don't get the part with the Griffins either, they've been Haven's allies only in Heroes III and Heroes V and only because human kingdoms are identified with lions and other such "proud" creatures. They are not completely out of place but I wouldn't say that they are symbolic for the faction.
The Black Dragon however is Dungeon's trade mark, I'm with you here. On the other hand, the Heroes V Brothel... I mean Dungeon is not an incarnation of the previous versions of this faction for me so they can change it whenever they like, I couldn't care less about them. The blackies are also too powerful for Champions.
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Postby MattII » Feb 12 2011, 9:34

Black Dragons have been With Warlocks/Dungeon for 4 games of 5, not including H1 in which it wasn't actually black, but was the only one in the game.

On the other hand, the Heroes V Brothel... I mean Dungeon is not an incarnation of the previous versions of this faction for me so they can change it whenever they like, I couldn't care less about them.
It had Minotaurs, Hydras and Black Dragons, that's what Dungeon is pretty much, those three creatures, regardless of terrain, heroes or the rest of the lineup (only H3 removed Hydra).

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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 12 2011, 11:05

Zenofex wrote:
The Black Dragon to Dungeon is what the Lich is to Necro, or the Gryphon to Haven

I don't get the part with the Griffins either, they've been Haven's allies only in Heroes III and Heroes V and only because human kingdoms are identified with lions and other such "proud" creatures. They are not completely out of place but I wouldn't say that they are symbolic for the faction.
The Black Dragon however is Dungeon's trade mark, I'm with you here. On the other hand, the Heroes V Brothel... I mean Dungeon is not an incarnation of the previous versions of this faction for me so they can change it whenever they like, I couldn't care less about them. The blackies are also too powerful for Champions.


Well, the gryphons really felt out of place in H2 dungeon. They just stood out, but felt like a natural part of Haven after H3, that's just me.

While the Heroes 5 version changed a lot, the core units of dungeon were still kept, and I don't see how can anyone jump to conclusions that Blackies would be too powerful - first and foremost - we don't know nothing about the current balance/actual numbers, and second, if you even bother to read some of the abilities that are given to other races champions you'd realize that they have a LOT at their disposal, certainly something that can match fire breath + magic immunity.
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Postby Zenofex » Feb 12 2011, 11:49

MattII wrote:It had Minotaurs, Hydras and Black Dragons, that's what Dungeon is pretty much, those three creatures, regardless of terrain, heroes or the rest of the lineup (only H3 removed Hydra).

It's more about personal preference here. I don't buy the underground Hydra (even though the model is well-made actually) and the Minotaur is so humiliated that it looks like some cannon-fodderish baby of the family instead of the intimidating damage-dealer that it used to be. Thus the Black Dragon is not enough for me to call this faction Dungeon when I compare it to what we had before.

I don't see how can anyone jump to conclusions that Blackies would be too powerful - first and foremost - we don't know nothing about the current balance/actual numbers, and second, if you even bother to read some of the abilities that are given to other races champions you'd realize that they have a LOT at their disposal, certainly something that can match fire breath + magic immunity.

They made it pretty clear that the dragons will be bosses and also there is a quite visible trend to "demote" the top tiers of each faction. The Pit Fiend is an ex-tier 6, the Seraphs are described as inferior to the Angels (ex-tier 7), the Fate Spinner we don't know much about and only the Cyclops stays where it was (which I find strange because now it's equal to the Pit Fiend). The Black Dragon thus will most likely be a minor (or maybe not so minor) boss.
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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 12 2011, 13:10

Zenofex wrote:They made it pretty clear that the dragons will be bosses and also there is a quite visible trend to "demote" the top tiers of each faction. The Pit Fiend is an ex-tier 6, the Seraphs are described as inferior to the Angels (ex-tier 7), the Fate Spinner we don't know much about and only the Cyclops stays where it was (which I find strange because now it's equal to the Pit Fiend). The Black Dragon thus will most likely be a minor (or maybe not so minor) boss.


Where did they say (all) dragons will be bosses? As for the trend, I outlined it in the OP.
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Postby Pitsu » Feb 12 2011, 13:45

I think it was a rumor from Igromir show. That means something which is not 100% sure.
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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 12 2011, 14:48

I hope they aren't true. I don't think the Bone Dragon was that important to the Necropolis so I can see why they've removed it. But it's not the same case with Dungeon (imo).

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Feb 12 2011, 16:50

Infiltrator wrote:Well, the gryphons really felt out of place in H2 dungeon. They just stood out, but felt like a natural part of Haven after H3, that's just me.


I think about the Warlocks (or dungeon) as the faction of mutated chaotic beasts. In H2 and H3 there was the minotaur, hydra, centaur, manticore, harpy, medusa... all monstrous creatures. So I think the griffin was a nice match for them.

H5 and H6 ruined every faction for me (with the exception of the human faction which has always been bland and generic) because they started organizing them based on race and we ended up with so many units that were essentialy the same unit, but wearing different cloths or riding a different mount. To me, this is one of the worst things that has happened to homm.

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Postby Neidhaart » Feb 12 2011, 18:30

To me, gyphons are usally seen as a good aligned creature so in that sense they fit in the noble style of Haven.


Black dragons and minotaurs just have to be in a dungeon. They are to iconic to fit anywhere else.
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Postby Corlagon » Feb 12 2011, 20:27

That matter is a little tricky, since it wouldn't do justice to the Dungeon's integrity to revamp the faction without any Black Dragons, whereas it wouldn't do justice to the Black Dragons' integrity to shoehorn them as tier 7s into a faction if there were neutral boss dragons in the game ten times more powerful than they would be.

I think the best solution would be to have neutral Black Dragons controllable by Dungeon in the campaigns, and (if there is a Grail) to make Black Dragons bosses who are, however, uniquely recruitable via the Dungeon Grail structure.

No Black Dragons and no (tier 4 or above) Minotaurs means no Dungeon, that's my stance too.

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Postby sezerp » Feb 12 2011, 22:25

Corlagon wrote:That matter is a little tricky, since it wouldn't do justice to the Dungeon's integrity to revamp the faction without any Black Dragons, whereas it wouldn't do justice to the Black Dragons' integrity to shoehorn them as tier 7s into a faction if there were neutral boss dragons in the game ten times more powerful than they would be..


Not really a problem. There are many dragons but only 7 dragon-gods. Similarly, there can be many black dragons but only few really old, smart and powerful and those are too independent to serve anybody. You can have (black) dragons as troops and, at the same time, _The_ Black Dragon as a boss, with his/her own name, story and so on.

Corlagon wrote:I think the best solution would be to have neutral Black Dragons controllable by Dungeon in the campaigns, and (if there is a Grail) to make Black Dragons bosses who are, however, uniquely recruitable via the Dungeon Grail structure.

That would be probably the most powerful grail bonus in HoMM history. Do not like.

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Postby Infiltrator » Feb 13 2011, 0:41

sezerp wrote:Not really a problem. There are many dragons but only 7 dragon-gods. Similarly, there can be many black dragons but only few really old, smart and powerful and those are too independent to serve anybody. You can have (black) dragons as troops and, at the same time, _The_ Black Dragon as a boss, with his/her own name, story and so on.


Agreed. The recruitable Blackies could be technically very young but still stronger than any other dungeon creature.

As for the grail structure, yea it would probably be too powerful, unless they gave something just as strong to any other race (don't see it happening).
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Postby mr.hackcrag » Feb 13 2011, 7:18

sezerp wrote: Similarly, there can be many black dragons but only few really old, smart and powerful and those are too independent to serve anybody.


I don't think dragons that are old and wrinkly would be the most powerful. Not to mention, they might be more dependent, relying on social security or elder home care because their punk dragon children don't want to take care of them.

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Postby Neidhaart » Feb 13 2011, 8:27

Well, it is mostly accepted in fantasy that the older the dragon, the more powerfull it is.

Anyway, i like sezerps idea.
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Postby Tress » Feb 13 2011, 8:37

I don't think dragons that are old and wrinkly would be the most powerful. Not to mention, they might be more dependent, relying on social security or elder home care because their punk dragon children don't want to take care of them.


Since in most fiction they are immortal due to age, they are same as liches and vampires. If you check dungeons and dragons, you will probably understand why it is not a good idea to mess with great wyrms (1.5 k old if I remeber correctly).


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