Heroes 6: ooookay?? (rant, really)

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Kranyum
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Postby Kranyum » Jan 27 2011, 9:22

Yes, Diablo III will be good, it will be an awesome game. But Ubisoft doesn't have that massive budget to undergo 3 major revisions of the game and design/develop the game over 10+ years to create a game that's better than their last game. To be honest, i'm sick of Blizzard since they released nothing but WoW for about 7 years, that perfectionist view is okay but i'm not prepared to wait that long for a better game.


Well guess what? You have been waiting for 10+ years for a better game. Heroes 3 has been out for more than 10 years now and since then there hasnt been much improvement regardless of the iterations the game has went trought.


But Ubisoft doesn't have that massive budget to undergo 3 major revisions of the game


But guess what? They are charging us exactly as much as Blizzard will for their Diablo 3.
How much will Heroes 6 cost? Well, around 50 bucks is a good estimate.
How much was Starcraft 2? Well also around 50 bucks.
This is the core issue. Biased stuff like, is the game going to be "good" or not is pretty much too subjective to assess.

Tell you what? I'm willing to pay 50euros for Diablo3. Using this metric, I'd be willing to dish out 10-15 euros for Heroes6. Would you pay more?


egardless, your complaint is irrational because, and let me be clear, YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAME. You are basing all of that off absolute speculation from screenshots and, maybe, a 6 months old alpha gameplay video. You have absolutely no idea how this game plays


A) A product is sold by advertising its strong points. They haven't been able to do it.

B) Both D3 and H6 arent yet released (that's why I am comparing them) but D3 has already shown me so much of their stuff while all H6 has done is go : "woooow ... shiny unitz!!!"

C) With 1 month before the announced release date and no beta announced, as a customer I am growing skeptical.


As for you, all you are doing is: "its going to be great guys just wait and see" without supporting your affirmation by nothing but wishful thinking. I, from the little facts we have, am trying to make a logical decision about a future purchase.

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Postby Elvin » Jan 27 2011, 10:50

Actually there have been a number of good changes or feature improvement in the series. I recently wrote a heroes evolution thread which deals with the success or failure of each installment's features. Feel free to add your two cents.


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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 27 2011, 15:16

MattII wrote:And if you actually read carefully (or at all) you'd have noted I said ...either a RTS gameor a RP game...

Which is why I addressed both assertions earlier.

MattII wrote:I keep forgetting that the tree with the water around it is meant to be a city and not just a rich man's garden-feature.
Would you rather a to-scale city? Wouldn't that be more of an RPG feature? Or, if it's a strategy game, does the icon on the screen matter? If it's too close, zoom out.

MattII wrote:No, but we do know that you can no longer conduct any form of economic warfare, it's all going to be set-piece battles and sieges, because of those rules regarding the Area of Control.

Except not - again, without playing it you don't know how economic harassment works - they've already said you can position armies at a mine within an opponent's Area of Control to stop the production As long as they are there. This seems like it prevents making a useless Hero to just sprint around and flag all the dwellings, and forces you to be more dedicated, militarily, to economic warfare, and allows for a 'smoke them out' alternative to a city siege.

MattII wrote:I'd like to see how you'd make Artificier work with only one rare resource.
This is a different game - I'm sure it will would differently.

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 27 2011, 15:18

Kranyum wrote:But guess what? They are charging us exactly as much as Blizzard will for their Diablo 3.
Then here's an easy solution: if you don't think it's worth the amount being charged, simply don't buy it. Problem solved!

Kranyum wrote:A) A product is sold by advertising its strong points. They haven't been able to do it.
Ha! Meanwhile, back in reality...

Kranyum wrote:B) Both D3 and H6 arent yet released (that's why I am comparing them) but D3 has already shown me so much of their stuff while all H6 has done is go : "woooow ... shiny unitz!!!"
As though showing production updates inherently makes the game better? Regardless, if that's all you are seeing, that's your dilemma - they've released tons of other info.

Kranyum wrote:C) With 1 month before the announced release date and no beta announced, as a customer I am growing skeptical.

Well, first off, there's no announced release date beyond Q1 2011 - that's still more than 2 months of time. It's looking fairly polished, and I'd guess there's either not going to be a public beta, which is increasingly the way games are released, or the game's going to be delayed another quarter.

Kranyum wrote:As for you, all you are doing is: "its going to be great guys just wait and see" without supporting your affirmation by nothing but wishful thinking. I, from the little facts we have, am trying to make a logical decision about a future purchase.
I'm not saying 'It's going to be great' at all - maybe it won't be, I don't know. I'm saying that complaining about it without playing it is idiotic. The 'facts you have' are hardly enough to form anything that's not rooted in total speculation. It's like going to a friend's house who's baking you a cake and then convincing yourself it's going to be awful because they sparing used an ingredient you don't always like, and then telling everyone else at the table about how awful it's going to be. That's childish, uninformed and pointless

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Postby Kranyum » Jan 27 2011, 16:22

Then here's an easy solution: if you don't think it's worth the amount being charged, simply don't buy it. Problem solved


I won't.

As though showing production updates inherently makes the game better? Regardless, if that's all you are seeing, that's your dilemma - they've released tons of other info.


Showing production updates means they have something to show, showing nothing means they have not that much to show.

Well, first off, there's no announced release date beyond Q1 2011 - that's still more than 2 months of time. It's looking fairly polished, and I'd guess there's either not going to be a public beta, which is increasingly the way games are released, or the game's going to be delayed another quarter.


Meanwhile, back in reality...

I'm not saying 'It's going to be great' at all - maybe it won't be, I don't know. I'm saying that complaining about it without playing it is idiotic.


You really must have trouble keeping your money if the only way to asses a product is by buying it. An informed guess from an experienced gamer should be pretty close to the real thing.

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 27 2011, 16:39

Kranyum wrote:You really must have trouble keeping your money if the only way to asses a product is by buying it. An informed guess from an experienced gamer should be pretty close to the real thing.
Mercifully, I can also choose to wait for reviews and comments from people that aren't based in speculation but based on actual experience with the game. I'd take 1 person with an experienced opinion over 100 'informed guesses' any day of the week.

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Postby Variol » Jan 27 2011, 16:42

Yeah, I'm in no real hurry either. I want to be sure it will run well fiest and get some comments from others.

It's funny; after 6 years, Disciples 3 came out and I can not find it anywhere. 8|

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 27 2011, 16:46

Variol wrote:It's funny; after 6 years, Disciples 3 came out and I can not find it anywhere. 8|

There's a prime example of a game revealing tons of assets and development for years that ultimately had to cannibalize itself to actually get released at all - years late and missing half it's features and with more memory-handling issues than the launch version of H5. Maybe they've patched it up since I last played it - stunning art design, though.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 28 2011, 9:59

LongDarkBlues wrote: I'm saying that complaining about it without playing it is idiotic.


Yes, the only time you should complain is when it's already too late for anything to change and you have already given them your money...

It's like when someone is trying to put ketchup on your sandwich, when you hate ketchup... you shouldn't say anything until you eat the sandwich and then complain about how it sucks while finishing it...

Except not - again, without playing it you don't know how economic harassment works - they've already said you can position armies at a mine within an opponent's Area of Control to stop the production As long as they are there. This seems like it prevents making a useless Hero to just sprint around and flag all the dwellings, and forces you to be more dedicated, militarily, to economic warfare, and allows for a 'smoke them out' alternative to a city siege.


No, now you'll make a hero so it can just stay in the same spot until the enemy's main chases you off...

And you can't smoke out someone that has 3 mines by staying in one with the hero that can actually fight while the other two are easy pickings...
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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 28 2011, 17:38

ThunderTitan wrote: Yes, the only time you should complain is when it's already too late for anything to change and you have already given them your money...

It's like when someone is trying to put ketchup on your sandwich, when you hate ketchup... you shouldn't say anything until you eat the sandwich and then complain about how it sucks while finishing it...


No, it's like hating ketchup when you've never had it because you just think it looks icky.

ThunderTitan wrote: No, now you'll make a hero so it can just stay in the same spot until the enemy's main chases you off...

And you can't smoke out someone that has 3 mines by staying in one with the hero that can actually fight while the other two are easy pickings...

Again, who knows? That's totally speculative and assumes that the game isn't incorporating that into the design - there's no reason this game has to be played just like H3. From what I can gather, it seems like they are strongly balancing the game away from the main-mega-hero strategy of old by making a useful military presence at crystal mines a requirement. By forcing the player to divide his units into functional groups, rather than just a guard-the castle group and a huge conquer-everything mobile group, this seems to promote making small armies that aren't just throwaways to flag things - to take a mine from an enemy, you have to be able to keep it held. You don't have to be big enough to take the castle, but you need to make them think about whether it's worth the losses to send someone out to fight for it back, which I think will create a stronger cost/benefit issue for losing 4 days worth of ore in exchange for a new week's worth of units (or however it will work, now). Of course, that's just speculation, too - the point being we don't have nearly enough data to make a call on what does and doesn't work in this game.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 28 2011, 18:48

Unless they changed how stacks work, and you'd think we'd heard something about that, there's no way to make splitting up your army be better then having it all in one place.

Based on the info we have the area control thing looks like just a way to eliminate the tedium of having to flag and re-flag a mine, so that the game is more attractive to people that care more about the action then resource management and all that.

If they want to make a case that that's not so then they should release more info about why its different, not just let us find out only by buying the game, at which point it will be both far too late to change it and sends the wrong message (they bought it, they must have liked it enough).


the point being we don't have nearly enough data to make a call on what does and doesn't work in this game.


Well if they don't supply it to us it's their own fault that we make decisions based on the one we do have...

No, it's like hating ketchup when you've never had it because you just think it looks icky.


More like because you don't like how it smells...

It's not like those features are so original that we can't predict how they'll work in the game...
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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 28 2011, 19:05

ThunderTitan wrote:there's no way to make splitting up your army be better then having it all in one place.
Well, that's not much of a strategy game, now is it?

ThunderTitan wrote: Based on the info we have... they should release more info... if they don't supply it to us it's their own fault that we make decisions based on the one we do have...
Well, then shouldn't you wait for more info, rather than knowingly making uninformed decisions about what does and doesn't work in the game? It's not like it's 1988 and there's no way to get an idea of the game before you play it - there will be hours of gameplay on YouTube, hundreds of evaluations on forums, and probably some actual critical reviews. Nobody said you have to buy it the day it comes out. Hell, I imagine half this forum is going to wait for a cracked version online to test it out before they even think about spending money on it, if they ever do.

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Postby MattII » Jan 29 2011, 19:57

LongDarkBlues wrote:Which is why I addressed both assertions earlier.
Homogenising the rest of the game in favour of boosting the customisation of the hero, sounds like the thin end of the wedge to me

Would you rather a to-scale city? Wouldn't that be more of an RPG feature? Or, if it's a strategy game, does the icon on the screen matter? If it's too close, zoom out.
Actually I'd like the rest of the terrain to be on the same approximate scale as the city, the way it was in 1-3

Except not - again, without playing it you don't know how economic harassment works - they've already said you can position armies at a mine within an opponent's Area of Control to stop the production As long as they are there. This seems like it prevents making a useless Hero to just sprint around and flag all the dwellings...
Exactly, thus the number of viable strategies is reduced.

...and forces you to be more dedicated, militarily, to economic warfare, and allows for a 'smoke them out' alternative to a city siege.
The fact that you could 'smoke them out' before...

This is a different game - I'm sure it will would differently.
Huh? Can I have that in English please?
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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 29 2011, 22:36

"This is a different game - I'm sure it will work differently. "

Regardless, this whole 'thin end of the wedge' thing is total paranoid anti-progress nonsense. It basically boils down to 'change is scary.'

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Postby Kranyum » Jan 29 2011, 23:24

lol LongDarkBlues ur such a fanboy hahahaha

look at you singlehandedly defending them, and nobody else ready to take ur side.

so bad...



let's all agree that from what they have shown so far the game isnt all that promising.

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Postby vicheron » Jan 29 2011, 23:54

Kranyum wrote:lol LongDarkBlues ur such a fanboy hahahaha

look at you singlehandedly defending them, and nobody else ready to take ur side.

so bad...



let's all agree that from what they have shown so far the game isnt all that promising.


I wouldn't say that.

I'm not impressed by the story and I don't like the one rare resource thing but I do like the graphics.

As for the other changes, it's hard to judge what kind of impact they'll have. However, it does seem like they're trying to put a greater focus on player vs. player interaction and reducing the adventure, exploration, creep/neutral monster fighting, and RPG elements. It does not mean the game will be bad, it'll just mean that there will be greater focus on fewer aspects of the game.

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Postby Elvin » Jan 30 2011, 0:36

@Kranyum
That or they don't take your topic seriously enough. No offense but you are too critical when knowing too little and that's all LongDarkBlues is trying to say. If you have a look in other communities you will see a lot of praise for certain decisions just like you will see criticism where it's due. But what you'll find anywhere are the almost paranoid comments of the type if I see x then OMG that means yxz which then means zxy and reach the dreadful conclusion THIS GAME SUCKS!!! Many won't consider that what they see is but a fraction of the game, they will just take a look at a screenshot and say that the adventure map is empty. Just because the screenshot is.
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Postby Kranyum » Jan 30 2011, 13:34

Elvin wrote:@Kranyum
That or they don't take your topic seriously enough. No offense but you are too critical when knowing too little and that's all LongDarkBlues is trying to say. If you have a look in other communities you will see a lot of praise for certain decisions just like you will see criticism where it's due. But what you'll find anywhere are the almost paranoid comments of the type if I see x then OMG that means yxz which then means zxy and reach the dreadful conclusion THIS GAME SUCKS!!! Many won't consider that what they see is but a fraction of the game, they will just take a look at a screenshot and say that the adventure map is empty. Just because the screenshot is.


Nah man... I havent jumped to any conclusion regarding their decisions, all I said is from what they have released so far they have failed to impress me. The chances that a game is better than its expectation is pretty slim. I can't remember a game that nobody was hyped about which turned out to be extremely good so, I'm just projecting this idea in here.

Heck, I might "borrow" the game to check it out but all in all I'm not keeping my hopes up
Last edited by Kranyum on Jan 30 2011, 18:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Mirez » Jan 30 2011, 15:55

Make sure to mark the place you burrowed your game in case you want to dig it up. ;)
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Postby Tress » Jan 30 2011, 16:37

Take a rehashed version of Heroes 5 crap graphics (no idea why such a game needs 3d graphics - expecially clogged, performance eating ones

1) it uses different engine than homm5, hopefully faster so such comparrison is out of place atm.
2) graphic engine dont have 100% effect on pace, lame ai clogged game down much more than graphic.
3) You will get lynched if you will produce 2d game ourdays, no matter genre. No company will ever take risk.
[*] Revamp (again!) the factions and towns adding even more unnecessarily new units.)

Pretty sure all units arent even announced yet, as are races, which last one is supposed to be new. Secondly homm 3 rehashed homm2 to much bigger extent.
[*] Add to that a big lack of single player support (see only 10 custom maps), and no word about the AI.

You have some inside info we dont have?, but I wont trash talk ai until I see it.


read the points before posting, they are all about game development as a process and an assessment about how it is going. Compare it to a game like Diablo 3 which we've followed development for a long time now.

Ye that game is in development for like 5+ years or so, and all we get is same game play, with renamed heroes with 3d graphics, with limited terrain interactivity, if we aproach from your viewpoint.

The main problem I'm constantly seeing is the fact that the new devs are basically trying to reinvent the world of heroes. Again.

All they've shown from this game is: "oh look, here's heroes 6 with even better graphics and cool looking new units".

Arent these statements contradicting each other. So should they try to add new stuff or no? If latter then they are reforming resource system and numerous other stuff. I dont intend to sit here and retype what ubi have announced so far.

[*] Sprinkle some shallow campaign with more flavorless plots (see Biara, or 500 years earlier or the zillion dragons gods, or the story in general... yea)

Wow you have acces to script already? On serious note, this argument is brought up million of times, but Ashan at least have definite gods rather than abstract ancients who torment one barbarian and norse god ripoffs.
Could we ignore Ubi's bussiness model - that is to release lots of rushed off games and collect the 40-50euro price tag on each new name/expansion they ship out?


As much as I hate some aspects of UBI they sin much less in released half ready products department than other companies.
The complaints are not irrational. On the contrary..

No they are, even worse they are assumptions that aspects that are not commented will be poorly implemented.
mattIII wrote:They have, however dumped several long-standing elements in favour of some new RP elements (cutting 3 rare resources, only 4 speciality buildings per faction, and only two per town, creatures no longer affect movements speed at all, etc.)


Even if that makes game seemingly simpler and more primitive I think changes are good. Resources - there is no more situation that there is some races that require particular resource type and thus are blocked in advancement. Unit speed- its aspect I pretty much hated, it basically destroyed some units like balistae, wasp trees in homm 4. Also I havent seen any announcments that would turn game away from classic tbs, asside from some rpg aspects that are more or less inherently present in any homm game.

) Both D3 and H6 arent yet released (that's why I am comparing them) but D3 has already shown me so much of their stuff while all H6 has done is go : "woooow ... shiny unitz!!!"

They have shown me exactly same stuff as d2 with some interactive terrnain like breakable walls . Homm6 have shown me enough to keep me interested.

lol LongDarkBlues ur such a fanboy hahahaha

Thats the way to show them whos right. Labeling people opposing you as fanboys. Honnestly i atm see only guy who have just registred at CH and spent 100% of time to trash talk game who isnt even out yet and we dont have enough information to objectively consider them, and insult people who try to oppose. Reading this I cant tell for sure if its not blatant trolling.


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