Heroes 6: ooookay?? (rant, really)

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Kranyum
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Heroes 6: ooookay?? (rant, really)

Postby Kranyum » Jan 26 2011, 12:12

Heroes 6 Recipe (from what I've gathered):

[*] Take a rehashed version of Heroes 5 crap graphics (no idea why such a game needs 3d graphics - expecially clogged, performance eating ones
[*] Revamp (again!) the factions and towns adding even more unnecessarily new units.)
[*] Sprinkle some shallow campaign with more flavorless plots (see Biara, or 500 years earlier or the zillion dragons gods, or the story in general... yea)
[*] Add to that a big lack of single player support (see only 10 custom maps), and no word about the AI.
[*] Leave out any comments about multiplayer or game balance
[*] Put the whole mix into the oven but take it out quickly, even before any beta-"baking".
[*] Serve it while it's hot (so that sucker-nostalgic-fans will buy)

What do we get: well, we all know it by now. Its called Heroes 6 folks.


Signed: a die hard Heroes 2-4 fan (and CH Lurker) disappointed from what they've done to the series.

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Re: Heroes 6: ooookay?? (rant, really)

Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 26 2011, 13:15

Heroes Forum Poster Recipe (from what I've gathered):

[*] Whine about how the game isn't exactly like Heroes 3
[*] Assume the absolute worst about every single decision the developers made

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Postby Kranyum » Jan 26 2011, 13:25

There is absolutely no whine related to Heroes 3 similarity in there, nor any "developper" decision is discussed.

read the points before posting, they are all about game development as a process and an assessment about how it is going. Compare it to a game like Diablo 3 which we've followed development for a long time now.

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Re: Heroes 6: ooookay?? (rant, really)

Postby Elvin » Jan 26 2011, 15:04

H5 graphics are cartoony and have just some passing similarities. If you have a look at today's screenshot for instance I wonder where exactly you come up with one of the same graphics/style. Or just check the units.. Unless you are simply a 3D hater.

Towns have always changed since H2, how is that a bad thing? Want to play the same haven/inferno/stronghold/necropolis forever? Whether you dislike some units that is a subjective matter, some will agree others won't. If ubi used the same lineups from H3 or 5 many would accuse of unoriginality.

Shallow campaign? Flavourless plots? You do not know about the campaign but I do. And it has been well made this time.

10 custom maps *does* suck. But not as much if they come with extra downloadable maps for the game's release which is pretty possible. Also the plan for releasing the editor before the game - assuming it's ready - still stands.

Comments on balance..? Already? Did you know h3 or H5 balance before it was released? Multiplayer modes etc have simply not been brought up yet.

And who said there will not be a beta?
I, for one, am dying to find out what colour they paint Michael's toenails.
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Postby Kranyum » Jan 26 2011, 15:43

The main problem I'm constantly seeing is the fact that the new devs are basically trying to reinvent the world of heroes. Again.

All they've shown from this game is: "oh look, here's heroes 6 with even better graphics and cool looking new units".

In order for the game to have success it needs to evolve. I have not yet seen 1 post showing how they have brought this game further than previous installments. And with a March release already announced, I don't see any time for a meaningful beta. Especially as the game needs to be finalized weeks before the release date in order to distribute it worldwide.

I am a pessimist, I know. But I do not see much improvement. Frankly if there would have been any breakthroughs in the spell system or combat system or any other thing for that matter, they would have used it as a selling point. But all I see is: "look at the new shiny units" - which is quite pointless because aside from renaming/redrawing the alignments have been pretty much the same for 10 years now.

Now I really love the series and the gameplay heroes games bring, but dishing out 40-50 euros for something that looks and feels more like a Heroes 5 mod rather than anything else, is making me sad really. And what's even worse is that in more than 10 years since Heroes 3 has been released, this wonderful game concept has been standing still because it fell into the hands of these money hungry Ubisoft Leeches.

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 26 2011, 16:24

Kranyum wrote:There is absolutely no whine related to Heroes 3 similarity in there

Really? You didn't long for a return 2D graphics? You didn't protest changing the factions?
Kranyum wrote:nor any "developper" decision is discussed.

Are you sure you didn't say anything about their supposedly 'flavorless' plot? Cast doubts on the AI development? Assume that the game was being rushed to market half-baked to cash in on nostalgia?

Kranyum wrote:What's even worse is that in more than 10 years since Heroes 3 has been released, this wonderful game concept has been standing still because it fell into the hands of these money hungry Ubisoft Leeches.

Return-to-Heroes-3 whining? Check. Irrational worst-case-scenario view of the devs? Check.

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Postby Kranyum » Jan 26 2011, 16:29

[quote="LongDarkBlues"][quote="Kranyum"]There is absolutely no whine related to Heroes 3 similarity in there[/quote]
Really? You didn't long for a return 2D graphics? You didn't protest changing the factions?
[quote="Kranyum"]nor any "developper" decision is discussed.[/quote]
Are you sure you didn't say anything about their supposedly 'flavorless' plot? Cast doubts on the AI development? Assume that the game was being rushed to market half-baked to cash in on nostalgia?

[quote="Kranyum"]What's even worse is that in more than 10 years since Heroes 3 has been released, this wonderful game concept has been standing still because it fell into the hands of these money hungry Ubisoft Leeches.[/quote]
Return-to-Heroes-3 whining? Check. Irrational worst-case-scenario view of the devs? Check.[/quote]


get out of my thread. you're useless. whatever, close it for all I care

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 26 2011, 17:38

I'm simply sick of the irrationally negative complaining here, and on other Heroes sites, about this game. As far as I'm concerned, we should be thankful we're getting a new game at all - if you just want to keep playing a 2D Heroes with the same old units, go play H3 forever. If you think, as you seem to say at points, that the gameplay has stagnated in the last decade, then you are either looking for a total fundamental overhaul, or ignoring all the changes in H5 and the announced ones for H6, which are many and significant.

Let's just all wait until we get our hands on the game so that we give useful, informed feedback rather than complaining about things we have no idea about (quality of the plot, AI intelligence, changes in strategy with less resource types, etc)

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Postby Variol » Jan 26 2011, 19:52

Uhh, I really like the look of H5. And it was a step in the right direction. I only wish they would keep things simple; simple creatures, but still nice looking, and of course, a game that runs relatively fast.

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Postby Kranyum » Jan 26 2011, 21:17

Could we ignore Ubi's bussiness model - that is to release lots of rushed off games and collect the 40-50euro price tag on each new name/expansion they ship out?

The complaints are not irrational. On the contrary, its simply calling this thing for what it is: a company extending a franchise ad-infinitum to milk what's left of the market created by an older game with simply no interest in putting the effort of releasing a quality product. Moreover, I, like any other player here, am just a customer looking to buy a new product and by the looks of it, from what I've seen on their site, I'm just not that impressed with what they have going.

All I'm saying is, as a Heroes fan, I am not at all excited and willing to put money into this product. And its a damn shame because it was a good series. Now you look at the relative innovation of games like Diablo 3, Starcraft 2 and the whole Neverwinter Nights into Dragon Age (to mention other names than Blizzard) and see what I mean when I am talking about improvement of a franchise and evolution of gameplay.

Let's look at the facts here, 1 month before their release and they still havent anounced the races yet. And for a game like Diablo3 the classes are previewed like years before the actual beta along with inside look on the new systems and gameplay, whereas here all we're getting is: 'look guys, cool new units... shiny'.

Those games are worth my money, and I knew it way before they were released on the market because of their main selling points. All I'm saying is this one isnt. And the funny part is the prices between the games above and Heroes VI will not be that far apart. Quite a disappointment.

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 26 2011, 21:48

You mean Diablo 3, which is still not out and so you can't gauge it's level of improvement (and has also had it's art design dragged over the coals)? Starcraft 2 which has been notoriously criticized for not advancing the gameplay significantly? Regardless, your complaint is irrational because, and let me be clear, YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAME. You are basing all of that off absolute speculation from screenshots and, maybe, a 6 months old alpha gameplay video. You have absolutely no idea how this game plays, any idea of the final quality, or pretty much anything besides what 4/5 of the units look like.

Does Ubisoft rush out some crappy games? Sure - they are a huge publisher. Do they also release highly polished, excellent games? Yes. So, without playing the game, why would you simply assume the worst? Obviously they are leaving the 5th faction under wraps because teasing the reveal keeps people following the progress of the game up to the release - nobody's spending the marketing money on a Heroes game like they will on Diablo.

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Postby MattII » Jan 27 2011, 0:40

They have, however dumped several long-standing elements in favour of some new RP elements (cutting 3 rare resources, only 4 speciality buildings per faction, and only two per town, creatures no longer affect movements speed at all, etc.)

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 27 2011, 1:40

MattII wrote:They have, however dumped several long-standing elements in favour of some new RP elements (cutting 3 rare resources, only 4 speciality buildings per faction, and only two per town, creatures no longer affect movements speed at all, etc.)
But did they do it to make the game worse, or because a group of game design professionals thought it would make the gameplay better? If it turns out they were wrong and it totally sucks, I'll be the first to say so, but until we see how it plays out, I see no reason to assume they are trying to make a terrible game.

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Postby MattII » Jan 27 2011, 3:36

The mechanics of H6 are being changed, as far as I can see, to make it into either a RTS game or a RP game, and since I like to play TBS games I'm not in favour of those changes.

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 27 2011, 4:00

MattII wrote:The mechanics of H6 are being changed, as far as I can see, to make it into either a RTS game or a RP game, and since I like to play TBS games I'm not in favour of those changes.
Don't be ridiculous - The RPG elements are going to be about as deep as adding a bit more customization of the Hero's skills and some unique enemy fights in the Campaign. There's nothing even slightly realtime about anything announced.

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Postby Spin » Jan 27 2011, 4:13

Kranyum wrote:There is absolutely no whine related to Heroes 3 similarity in there, nor any "developper" decision is discussed.

read the points before posting, they are all about game development as a process and an assessment about how it is going. Compare it to a game like Diablo 3 which we've followed development for a long time now.


Yes, Diablo III will be good, it will be an awesome game. But Ubisoft doesn't have that massive budget to undergo 3 major revisions of the game and design/develop the game over 10+ years to create a game that's better than their last game. To be honest, i'm sick of Blizzard since they released nothing but WoW for about 7 years, that perfectionist view is okay but i'm not prepared to wait that long for a better game.

Heroes 6 will be good, i'm thinking it's going to be a bit dumber yes, but it will introduce new players to the series and hopefully get the amount of support needed to keep the franchise alive. They just can't make a game for heroes fans you know.

So far the graphics look cleaner, it doesn't look like your computer will lag (since they don't look much better than heroes 5), and they've changed a lot to make it a much more combat focused game, instead of hunting for resources etc. I think the best argument against what you're saying is to play the game, i bet you'll find it's gonna be at least much better than your expectations.

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Postby MattII » Jan 27 2011, 4:50

LongDarkBlues wrote:Don't be ridiculous - The RPG elements are going to be about as deep as adding a bit more customization of the Hero's skills and some unique enemy fights in the Campaign.
Thin end of the wedge, if they're homogenising the towns and resources now what are they going to take it in their head to do in H7?

So far the graphics look cleaner, it doesn't look like your computer will lag (since they don't look much better than heroes 5), and they've changed a lot to make it a much more combat focused game, instead of hunting for resources etc. I think the best argument against what you're saying is to play the game, i bet you'll find it's gonna be at least much better than your expectations.
The adventure map still looks to be much closer to a RPG scale than a Strategy one, and what is this pre-occupation with combat, strategy is a mix of tactics (combat), logistics (moving) and economics (money), and now they're playing up certain areas of the tactics section in favour of the economics section and other areas of the tactics section.

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Jan 27 2011, 5:22

It's pure paranoia to assume this series is being transitioned to an RTS - it's nonsense for a variety of reasons I'm sure you can figure out.

What is an adventure map supposed to look like? Is there only one acceptable scale of level of abstraction? Without playing the game, there's no way to gauge how the new maps, heroes, and game balancing will affect logistics and economics. Again, this is complaining about total speculation - until we've seen how the game works longterm with one special resource there's no reason to assume it's been somehow undercut.

Personally, gathering resources after the first week is a tedious chore and I'd much rather the focus was on any other aspect of the game - empire management, which they seem to be moving towards with the Town Migration and area of control elements, improving and customizing the Hero which they also seem to be expanding, and using my units in a deep strategy combat game, which is, at worst, going to be essentially the same.

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Postby MattII » Jan 27 2011, 8:03

LongDarkBlues wrote:It's pure paranoia to assume this series is being transitioned to an RTS - it's nonsense for a variety of reasons I'm sure you can figure out.
And if you actually read carefully (or at all) you'd have noted I said ...either a RTS gameor a RP game...

What is an adventure map supposed to look like? Is there only one acceptable scale of level of abstraction?
Well looking at this:
[img]http://www.celestialheavens.com/images/screenshots/homm5/sylvan/homm5_shot40.jpg[/img]
I keep forgetting that the tree with the water around it is meant to be a city and not just a rich man's garden-feature.

Without playing the game, there's no way to gauge how the new maps, heroes, and game balancing will affect logistics and economics.
No, but we do know that you can no longer conduct any form of economic warfare, it's all going to be set-piece battles and sieges, because of those rules regarding the Area of Control.

Again, this is complaining about total speculation - until we've seen how the game works longterm with one special resource there's no reason to assume it's been somehow undercut.
I'd like to see how you'd make Artificier work with only one rare resource.

Still, you're not convincing me, and I don't think I'm convincing you.
Last edited by MattII on Jan 27 2011, 9:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 27 2011, 8:18

MattII dude, use [img] tags when posting big pictures...


@LongDarkBlues

Dude, there's been as much "it's too much like H3" complaining about H5 as that it's not enough like it... and it's been much more effective because it got caravans added to H5.
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