My shot at making HOMM units

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My shot at making HOMM units

Postby ChainofCommand » Dec 3 2010, 21:44

I feel that designers just don't understand the theme of each town and what units should represent them. They got the idea but the execution was never that great.


Here are some rules I follow:

Different tiers of units should be realistic in why they are in an army and how properly trained/equiped they are. For example: HOMM5 almost had it right with Peasants as their first tier unit but they just wern't great units aesthetically. I think the first tier Haven unit should've been a Pikeman of sorts. Pikemen are required in large numbers, the pike is a simple weapon so it makes sense theres a lot of them and Pikemen aren't required to have extravagent equipment. Just a big pointy stick. Using HOMM5 against, something as powerful and rare as an Archangel deserves to be in the human army because of their rarity and battle prowess. Also their status within Haven is beyond many. (Another reason pikemen is a good first tier because militia units like them would be scared to face to face demons n stuff so they can poke em from far)

Every unit should have an ability you can manipulate to actively change the battlefield but not so much where it is the dominant figure.

The design is simple and appealing to command in battle (i LOVED using Angels)


Ill start with Haven

Code: Select all

Tier 1: Pikeman, Melee
Special Ability, Pikewall: The Pikeman assemble to form a Pikewall 3 squares in front of them working as the moat did from Town Sieges. Activatable spell. Not able to move but able to attack only at those 3 squares.

Tier 2: Crossbowmen, Ranged
Special Ability, Puncture Barrage: The Crossbowmen fire bolts which goes through units. Capable of friendly fire and every square passed reduces damage by 4% and every square occupied by an enemy reduces damage by 25% after the first. (Note: Large creatures will still reduce both the squares they occupy when the shot goes through them but they wont take double damage. So shooting a large creature will go through both of the squares and reduce it by 25% twice). Activatable spell

Tier 3: Footman, Melee
Special Ability, Battle Axe: The footmen swap their swords and shields to take their backup Battle Axe. The Battle Axe does 45% more damage vs Large Units but take 20% more damage from ranged units and deal 50% less damage vs small units. Activatable Ability

Tier 4: Priest, Ranged Caster
Special Ability, Prayer: The Priest goes into prayer and targets a friendly unit increasing initiative. The Priest must channel this spell and can be interrupted by melee attackers. Prayer cannot be casted on Tier 6 or 7 units. Activatable Ability

Tier 5: Gryphon, Large Melee Flyer
Special Ability, Intimidating Roar: The Gryphons intimidate a target close to them which frightens the target causing them to flee backwards at the victims choosing (enemy player gets to choose where he flees). Terrifying Roar does not intimidate Tier 5+ units. Intimidating Roar does not work twice on the same unit. Activatable Ability

Tier 6: Cavalry Large Melee
Special Ability, Charge: The Cavalry tramples through anything in their way causing units to be knocked away from their path towards their target. Every unit knocked away causes 20% less damage. Large units causes 25% less damage. (You pick a target, Cavalry charges knocking units in their path to the side so the Cavalry gets a juicy hit at the expense of less damage per unit knocked away). Activatable Ability

Tier 7: Angels, Large Melee Flyer
Special Ability, Resurrection: Works like HOMM5 basically.



Ill make other faction units if you think this one was good. I don't expect this to be implemented but I did it for fun. It does look a lot like the HOMM5 line up but I think that HOMM5 had a great idea aesthetically but some of the execution was off in terms of unit stats and abilities were kinda boring.


Also note, numbers are just rough ideas, try not to criticize on only them. Focus on the concept.[/code][/list]

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Re: My shot at making HOMM units

Postby MattII » Dec 4 2010, 3:17

ChainofCommand wrote:Different tiers of units should be realistic in why they are in an army and how properly trained/equiped they are. For example: HOMM5 almost had it right with Peasants as their first tier unit but they just wern't great units aesthetically. I think the first tier Haven unit should've been a Pikeman of sorts. Pikemen are required in large numbers, the pike is a simple weapon so it makes sense theres a lot of them and Pikemen aren't required to have extravagent equipment. Just a big pointy stick.

[sarcasm]That would explain why Swiss pikes were so in demand in the rest of Europe for so long, and remained in service as melee fighters into the 19th century[/sarcasm]. The fact is, that in decent numbers, pikes will own swords, whether they're wielded by men on foot or men on horses.

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Re: My shot at making HOMM units

Postby ChainofCommand » Dec 4 2010, 4:35

Relevant, completely relevant.

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Postby Mirez » Dec 4 2010, 8:12

It is, besides h6 only has 3 tiers
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby Thelonious » Dec 5 2010, 22:54

Basicly, you're saying that Ubihole should be making the units make more sense. I doubt that anyone disagrees ;)
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 8 2010, 10:33

Wow, i never saw this line up before...

If you're gonna bother at least try to do something interesting pls.

Let's try to think of some other non-human units for Haven/Castle. I'll start with the Warhound... either at tier 1 or lvl 2.

Your turn now guys.
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Postby Metathron » Dec 8 2010, 18:22

ThunderTitan wrote:Wow, i never saw this line up before...

If you're gonna bother at least try to do something interesting pls.


That was my reaction too when seeing that lineup, but the real point he was making was that the abilities should be more rooted in logic. What he suggests does make sense.

I like your warhound idea - were you thinking of a Huan type canine from the Silmarillion?

Also, I'm getting rather fed up with the angels, even more so since they look almost identical to the H5 ones. How about a nice big warmachine in the vein of the HoMM IV catapult?
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 9 2010, 9:22

Metathron wrote:I like your warhound idea - were you thinking of a Huan type canine from the Silmarillion?


I didn't get to visuals with the idea yet... i was just throwing it out there.
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Postby Thelonious » Dec 10 2010, 8:20

Ok so warhound. What else? A feline creature - tamed lion :P

Nah for real though, I don't think the heaven faction has to change; the only thing is that it should be the only faction which is race based so heavily in its units.

Warmachines could be a good thing to add, yet other factions could use them as well (if there would be a dwarf faction; I'd rather see warmachines there)

It's hard to fit in any miythical creature because the whole faction is based on a european kingdom in the midieval period. They just didn't have fantasy creatures in their armies and most mythical creatures they had during that time (amongst them griffins, dragons, basilisks, pixies, elves, dwarves and ofcourse all sorts of demons) are already placed mostly outside of their faction.

That's one reason why I like the new twist of the heaven faction which include more magical things from the lore - it gives heaven less of a might feel and more of a magic feel. If they build on that heaven could become more diverse and have less human units. They could add fire/sun/light based creatures; perhaps even add air based creatures to make them some sort of air faction (go pheonixes for heaven)

Saying that does give me one idea for a creature which can be placed in heaven though: the roc/thunderbird.
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Postby MattII » Dec 10 2010, 10:06

Yes, we know Haven is a representation of a medieval human faction, that's the whole problem with it, it's by far the most clichéd style in fantasy today (in the west at least) because it doesn't date back to Tolkien's works, it's been around since, well, the middle ages, so it's way past its sell-by date, it's practically a dinosaur.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 12 2010, 13:34

Thelonious wrote:Nah for real though, I don't think the heaven faction has to change; the only thing is that it should be the only faction which is race based so heavily in its units.

Warmachines could be a good thing to add, yet other factions could use them as well (if there would be a dwarf faction; I'd rather see warmachines there)



Giant difference between changing and getting some new units...

But war machines are a bit off as units imo... and we'd get mostly ballista's if we use them like that anyway.


Ok so warhound. What else? A feline creature - tamed lion :P


They already have a tamed lion, it's called a griffon. War Hounds historically fit very well in a middle ages western human faction...
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Postby Thelonious » Dec 13 2010, 20:00

ThunderTitan wrote:Giant difference between changing and getting some new units...


Agreed, but I think you and I both agree that Heaven should change and/or get new units to give them more interesting gameplay. Just as Inferno should get more story or more diversity to be more interesting.

ThunderTitan wrote:But war machines are a bit off as units imo... and we'd get mostly ballista's if we use them like that anyway.


Also agreed; yet warmachines could bring more interesting gameplay. Like the warmachines from HoMM IV - the ballistae were sorta like undead, that creates diversity.

ThunderTitan wrote:They already have a tamed lion, it's called a griffon. War Hounds historically fit very well in a middle ages western human faction...


Don't agree, a lion would play very different from a griffon. Lion's don't fly last time I checked. They would play similarly as warhounds though. I do agree that they would be a good addition.

I still stand by my point that the way heavens units are going could be a good thing. More magical units could lead to a more interesting Heaven; leading eventually to fire elementals (sun riders?!) and pheonixes (if they decide to go the fire way that is - pheonixes would fit perfectly as Heaven is associated with life aswell. Fire + life = pheonix) As side for fire direction; air could also be an option (sun > fire and air) so air elementals and rocs/thunderbirds.
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Postby Pitsu » Dec 13 2010, 20:35

First, it is Haven not Heaven, these are not synonyms you know...
Second, I would not mind some hounds, but I would like the "spicing" of human town come rather from other game elements than invented troops. A species (human) based town could be the perfect choice for H6 system where a common pool of recruits can be trained for whatever weapons the player prefers. A common pool for griffin, sun rider and light elemental is much more strange. A town with no fliers (H1-2 knight) and weak ranged attacks is actually a different challenge from other towns and to make the melee units different from each other, something can certainly be done via unit specials.
Edit: it is like H3 fortress, which had two fragile flyers and a slow low level ranged unit. Nevertheless it was unique due to access to fast flyers in early game allowing creeping, but its main forces after initial game phase were melee units. Each of these unit had durability and specials, which made them fearsome.
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Postby Thelonious » Dec 14 2010, 21:45

I know, my bad...

I think the whole idea of TT was that a single species town is boring.

When you really look at it, basicly every unit is the same except for stats and abilities - ranged attack is an ability, so is flying. Speed, defence and attack are stats - they create fast, tanks of hard hitting units.

Then this conversation just boils down to creating more interesting units by creating more interesting abilities or stats on them. And I think nobody is against that.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 15 2010, 22:38

Thelonious wrote:I know, my bad...

I think the whole idea of TT was that a single species town is boring.


There was also the fact that the OP's Haven build was exactly like H3's, with a few level changes... what's the point of that.


Then this conversation just boils down to creating more interesting units by creating more interesting abilities or stats on them.


New visuals would help too... a full package so to speak.


Thelonious wrote:Don't agree, a lion would play very different from a griffon. Lion's don't fly last time I checked. They would play similarly as warhounds though. I do agree that they would be a good addition.


It would look like a griffon without flying... no matter it's role. Plus, it would feel weird, hounds just fit better with armourer guys on horses. So would some sort of hunting falcon... but the Griffon already kinda has that role.
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Postby Thelonious » Dec 19 2010, 10:10

rocs/thunderbird and pheonixes to throw out the angels would be a nice replacement for hunting falcons ;)
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 21 2010, 16:18

Problem is that one's arabic and the other too ancient... what we're looking for is something more arthurian, anglo-french knight type of stuff.
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Postby Thelonious » Dec 21 2010, 17:57

They look hawk-like enough. But yeah you're right. But then we're boiling down to dragons wizards and witches because they weren't really creative in that time...
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 21 2010, 18:11

Well there's giants and stuff... problem is most of the good guys where knight... because that was pretty much the audience. And Monks where used already...

An Enchantress would work, but the Priestess kinda does fit the Lady of the Lake archetype...
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Postby Thelonious » Dec 21 2010, 22:49

Eeeuhm pixies and the lot are also in use... And they did mention specific armor or swords yet those are hard to make units of...

That's why I think giving the haven faction a different basis to start from isn't such a bad idea.
Grah!


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