Who else hates the Inferno?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Variol
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Postby Variol » Dec 26 2010, 10:44

I don't see anything wrong with Slayer of Cliffracers post. It's just his opinion. I think some people are a little to "touchy" around here: IMHO :D

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Postby Elvin » Dec 26 2010, 11:12

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Postby Mirez » Dec 26 2010, 12:46

MattII wrote:Well could you at least put in IMO a few times, cause that big post sounded pretty confrontational.

I disagree, someone will always voice his opinion in his posts, there's no reason to add IMO every few sentences to cover yourself in.

Anyways this has gone on far enough "IMO" so let's go back to topic.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 26 2010, 18:02

Variol wrote:I don't see anything wrong with Slayer of Cliffracers post. It's just his opinion.


What are you talking about... Ashan is Axeoth in the future... all the proof is there... all you need is triplets and everything makes sense.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Dec 26 2010, 20:57

ThunderTitan wrote:
Variol wrote:I don't see anything wrong with Slayer of Cliffracers post. It's just his opinion.


What are you talking about... Ashan is Axeoth in the future... all the proof is there... all you need is triplets and everything makes sense.

[/meta-posts]


Ashan is Axeoth in the future. That is what the Heroes V game practically says through the three references to old heroes, the descriptions of which do not deviate from their Heroes IV selves, plus the great number of Axeoth references in the town bios. Yes Ubisoft may have chickened out and did a U-Turn but the damage is done.

Death of the Author after all means that the word of Ubisoft is not superior to what they have clearly made. If they have clearly established in the game that Ashan is Axeoth which they have, then they cannot state otherwise and hold credibility.

Maybe it makes me an Author Killer, but as far as I am concerned I am prepared to abide by the Word of God as long as it is merely an interpretation of canon rather than a replacement for canon.

But I wasn't even talking about that, I was talking about the basic question of what it takes to make a proper fantasy demon, one that isn't lame.

My 'argument' to get back on topic was that it is initially to adequately portray demons in a strategy game because of the basically crude nature of necessarily portraying demons as 'just another army' subtracts from their basic diabolism. It is necessary to write plots to add back what is lost inherently.

They cease to be properly demons and become 'orcs'. By this I mean they become brute creatures of force that are evil in intention but ultimately mundane. Orcs are essentially debased demons, it's what your demon creatures will become if you fail to follow the rules on demon-depiction. Of course when you are intending to depict actual orcs, then you do well to do the opposite of all the rules for demons (which is why I made the comparison). :) :) :)

The rules are.
1. They must be pure evil.
2. They must be individually extremely powerful.
3. They must maintain a certain air of mystery.
4. They must work primarily through cunning and deceit not brute force.
5. They must pose a fundamental threat to reality itself greater than any non-demonic creature.

The basic thing to remember about fantasy creatures is that it is never a good idea to break the basic rules for depicting a particular creature yet neither is it a good idea to merely repeat the version of said creature that is depicted in another work. If you make the first mistake then your creatures become 'lame' because people don't really accept them *as* what they are supposed to be, while if you make the second then your work is boring.
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Postby Zenofex » Dec 26 2010, 23:40

You know, I'm beginning to suspect that you are the author of the HoMM V story. Even if you aren't, they should have chosen you. You are pretty good at telling how the things are supposed to be and know all the basic rules. :applause:
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Postby lotusreaver » Dec 27 2010, 2:09

Peace has been restored!

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Postby MattII » Dec 27 2010, 6:08

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:They cease to be properly demons and become 'orcs'. By this I mean they become brute creatures of force that are evil in intention but ultimately mundane. Orcs are essentially debased demons, it's what your demon creatures will become if you fail to follow the rules on demon-depiction. Of course when you are intending to depict actual orcs, then you do well to do the opposite of all the rules for demons (which is why I made the comparison). :) :) :)

Such narrow views leasts to stagnation.

1. They must be pure evil.

Agreed, mostly, although I wouldn't begrudge the occasional 'good-guy' like Agrael in H5.

2. They must be individually extremely powerful.

Disagree, I'm perfectly happy with a demon who's not stronger than an elephant.

3. They must maintain a certain air of mystery.

Agreed.

4. They must work primarily through cunning and deceit not brute force.

Disagree again, why should all demons be constrained to one stereotypical method of action?

5. They must pose a fundamental threat to reality itself greater than any non-demonic creature.

Disagree totally, this will always lead to the same 'demons vs. everyone else' plotline which gets boring after about the second time you come across it. This also implies that the demons want to destroy reality, but I don't see why they can't just be after world domination.

The basic thing to remember about fantasy creatures is that it is never a good idea to break the basic rules for depicting a particular creature yet neither is it a good idea to merely repeat the version of said creature that is depicted in another work. If you make the first mistake then your creatures become 'lame' because people don't really accept them *as* what they are supposed to be, while if you make the second then your work is boring.

Agree with the second point, but don't agree with the first, change is good in some cases, you just have to know how to make it look good.
Last edited by MattII on Jan 14 2011, 7:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 27 2010, 8:08

So, everything clear guys?!

@Slayer

BTW, Death of the Author applies to things like themes and concepts, not to canon.
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Postby vicheron » Jan 13 2011, 13:20

The Kreegans did work behind the scenes. Remember the plot to use the Cult of Baa to overthrow the Ironfist Empire?

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Postby Tress » Feb 22 2011, 11:51

I wouldnt say that homm5 version of demons worked without deceit. They had agents infiltrated through all empire. In between invasions they have no other means of waging war

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 22 2011, 12:05

Based on what we saw they had 1 agent, and she was everywhere... of course it makes sense, seeing how she was one of the only few people in the world that had an IQ over 80...
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Postby Tress » Feb 22 2011, 13:39

Again you are too quick to bash homm5 lore for something it isnt.
Well there was Phenrig to name at least one other named demon servant that posed as regular human. And wasnt whole dragon knights group supposed to hunt them down, so can assume there is more than enough of that stuff. Not to mention that they used dark elves as agents. Also not to forget that Agrael mentioned that he lived amongst empire and watched over Isabel as she grew.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 22 2011, 13:56

Stalking an under aged girl isn't called infiltration.
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Postby Tress » Feb 22 2011, 14:01

Doing it under demon orders probably are, specially when you are imbued with demonic power that can give you out and you are dark elf, with whom diplomatic relations are tenuous at best. Also spying on nobility might not be as easy as on common folk, after all she lives in castle where just anybody doesn't get in.
Ashan Demons have both visible and unseen presence in mortal world that manipulates events for their purposes, period. They dont act only as mindless horde that swarms Ashan at every eclipse Claiming otherwise is just ignoring obvious facts.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 22 2011, 14:24

Did it go over your head or are you just being stubborn about making a point?!
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Postby Tress » Feb 22 2011, 14:34

Sarcasm isnt best thing that translates into text so ye I guess it partially did, aside from that there is way too many instances here when obvious point are ignored so second part somewhat too.
Since it is community(not just ashan hater) forum then I definitely want to point out obvious flaws in people statements that are purely grown out of hatred towards ubisoft. To quote one game in context of heroes 5 " Hate me, but do it honestly"

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Postby Variol » Feb 22 2011, 15:18

tress wrote:Sarcasm isnt best thing that translates into text so ye I guess it partially did, aside from that there is way too many instances here when obvious point are ignored so second part somewhat too.
Since it is community(not just ashan hater) forum then I definitely want to point out obvious flaws in people statements that are purely grown out of hatred towards ubisoft. To quote one game in context of heroes 5 " Hate me, but do it honestly"


tress bien! :D

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 22 2011, 16:34

That wasn't sarcasm, it was a pedobear joke...
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Postby mr.hackcrag » Feb 22 2011, 17:06

All I know is that the H6 Inferno faction can burn in hell. 2nd worst faction so far.


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