The Best And The Worst

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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ThunderTitan
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 15 2011, 22:44

Fun fact, i just defeated someone last Tuesday (small map) because he stupidly wasted his resources at the beginning of the game so while he had 18k gold he only was able to buy lvl 4 units (and some Efreets) while i had 7 Nagas and units up to Mages (un-upgraded)... he still could have beaten me (i played awful at the start, didn't expect to get attacked by the 3rd guy we where playing, build stuff wily-nily etc.) but he made the mistake of using his Tactics skill to get his ranged units half way through the BF and then didn't know to take out my ranged units first.

If there where only 4 resources in the game i wouldn't have had a chance with only 3 mines needed...


As for maps where one player can't find resources for his faction... that's a problem with the map, so your argument is more about making it easier for the map maker... and i'm sure the better ones can make do...
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Postby klaymen » Jan 16 2011, 9:45

ThunderTitan wrote: As for maps where one player can't find resources for his faction... that's a problem with the map, so your argument is more about making it easier for the map maker... and i'm sure the better ones can make do...


Resource silo somewhat offsets this problem.
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Postby wimfrits » Jan 16 2011, 16:31

ThunderTitan wrote:... and i'm sure the better ones can make do...


Oh right, the omniscient mapmaker theory again!
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 17 2011, 13:14

wimfrits wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:... and i'm sure the better ones can make do...


Oh right, the omniscient mapmaker theory again!


Actually the point is that the number of resources won't stop bad placing of mines on a map... the situation you talked about where one town doesn't have access to it's needed resource depends more on the map, and can easily happen with 4 resources if placed wrong.

What probably counts more towards making it less prominent is that now all towns will have about the same resource requirements to make buildings... which could have been done with 7 resources too by making all town need the same resources...

There has to be a better way then just making everything the same.
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Postby Campaigner » Jan 17 2011, 16:37

I hope you're wrong TT. I hope that the towns will have diverse resourceneeds. Something like this:

    Haven - Balanced amounts of every resource
    Inferno - Gold-medium to high, Wood-very low, Ore-very high, Crystal-medium
    Necropolis - Gold-low, Wood-low, Ore-high, Crystal-high
    Stronghold - Gold-medium, Wood-very high, Ore-medium, Crystal-very low
    Naga - Gold-high, Wood-low, Ore-low, Crystal-very high

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Postby wimfrits » Jan 18 2011, 8:15

ThunderTitan wrote:Actually the point is that the number of resources won't stop bad placing of mines on a map... the situation you talked about where one town doesn't have access to it's needed resource depends more on the map, and can easily happen with 4 resources if placed wrong.


There's an obvious scale difference between 4 and 7. Look at the example Campaigner gave of diversity with 4 resources. And then try to imagine the job a mapmaker has to do in balancing if he decides to allow random starting towns. Difficult (as always). But doable.

Now I can't properly cook with 7 pans on the fire. I'm no woman. But I can manage 4.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 19 2011, 22:37

Ha, women cooking... like they ever enjoy food enough to make it as good as a man can.

And of course there's the fact that if someone else can cook with 7 pans why would i hire you as a cook instead?! :tonguehands:

And Campaigner's example will run into the same problems you where talking about, some towns will need 2 mines of X while others 1... if the map doesn't have them right there's a problem... if that's not the case then the difference in resource needs between the towns won't be that big in the first place, so not really diverse.

And lets not get into how that get's harder to do if you add more towns.
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Postby sezerp » Jan 20 2011, 8:12

Following the logic of "we can't do this and that, because we have random starting position" we should get rid of snow, desert & swamp terrain, because certain faction have clear advantage over others on that terrains...

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Postby wimfrits » Jan 20 2011, 10:03

ThunderTitan wrote:And of course there's the fact that if someone else can cook with 7 pans why would i hire you as a cook instead?! :tonguehands:


Because in terms of balancing, I'm the best cook in town :P
That is, if you like spicy food.

@sezerp:
Indeed, as a mapmaker you need to consider such things carefully if you want a balanced game. The less you control such factors, the more random the game becomes. It's a sliding scale from full control to full randomness.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jan 21 2011, 13:53

So you're arguing for it because it makes your job easier... devious.
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Postby OliverFA » Feb 24 2011, 16:23

It will be interesting to see the top 3 and worst 3 lists after people play the demo. Right now, for me:

Best:
1-There is a HoMM6
2-Old world heroes appear in the story
3-Paul Romero is back

Worst:
1-Is called MM:H6
2-It (seems to be) less strategic, less varied, and dumbed down
3-They are reinventing the wheel instead of expanding Heroes V in an evolutionary way.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Feb 25 2011, 1:16

Best: Romero's description of nice melodies makes me think that the soundtrack will be closer to H2/H4 calibur and not be a huge let down like H5 soundtrack was.

Worst: Unit artwork and faction line-up.

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Postby Thelonious » Feb 25 2011, 8:09

OliverFA wrote:3-They are reinventing the wheel instead of expanding Heroes V in an evolutionary way.


How do you know if they are reinventing the wheel? There are a number of elements from HoMM V which are returning - the initiative bar, square battlefield tiles, full 3D, 7 units with upgrades (arranged in a different manner) some units and their abilities, elements of the story line, 3 of the 4 recources (:P) and perhaps other things that I've missed or we'll notice as soon as we get the demo.

Ad why is everyone upset about the games name? For crying out loud - it still features Heroes VI and I never asked anyone if he'd want to play Heroes of Might and Magic with me - I just asked if he wanted to play heroes with me. Furthermore that Might & Magic is now above heroes in stead of below - I really couldn't give a damn.
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Postby MattII » Feb 25 2011, 8:31

Thelonious wrote:the initiative bar
But we're back to 1 action per unit per combat turn.
square battlefield tiles
H4 used squares as well.
full 3D
They'd have done this regardless of what H5 did.
7 units with upgrades (arranged in a different manner)
We had 7 units with upgrades in H3 as well.
some units and their abilities
Since the factions of H5 were basically carbon-copies of H3 in most cases...
elements of the story line
Those come from the universe, not, in this case, the previous game.
3 of the 4 recources (:P)
But we've lost 3 resources of the 7 from H5.

The skill tree is different, the magic system is different, the tier system is different, the combat system is different, etc. Those are the wheels of the game, not the lore or the graphics or the factions.

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Postby OliverFA » Feb 25 2011, 9:03

Thelonious wrote:
OliverFA wrote:3-They are reinventing the wheel instead of expanding Heroes V in an evolutionary way.


How do you know if they are reinventing the wheel?


I don't know, because I have not seen the game yet. But that's the impression I am getting from what we are seeing, and I hope I am wrong.

Thelonious wrote:There are a number of elements from HoMM V which are returning - the initiative bar, square battlefield tiles, full 3D,

None of those elements belong to the core HOMM game mechanics

Thelonious wrote:7 units with upgrades (arranged in a different manner)

But they are only 3 levels. So that doesn't count as "returning" for me.

Thelonious wrote: some units and their abilities,

Which units? And which abilities? I am not interested in the S&M version of the dungeon. Now, Heroes III dungeon would be a different thing.

Thelonious wrote: elements of the story line,

To be honest, I disliked H5 story. NWC (and also the story in the new King's Bounty) that's a good story. Simple and typical, but told in a very special and enjoyable way.

Thelonious wrote: 3 of the 4 recources (:P)

No. That's not a return :P

Thelonious wrote:and perhaps other things that I've missed or we'll notice as soon as we get the demo.

Perhaps. As I said, I hope the demo proves me wrong.

Thelonious wrote:And why is everyone upset about the games name? For crying out loud - it still features Heroes VI and I never asked anyone if he'd want to play Heroes of Might and Magic with me - I just asked if he wanted to play heroes with me. Furthermore that Might & Magic is now above heroes in stead of below - I really couldn't give a damn.

Because that's an unneeded change that brings nothing to the game or the franchise. It's change for change's sake. It's like changing Coca-cola's logo. Pepsi needs to change from time to time because it's logo has no strength, no carisma. But if Coca-cola changed, eerybody would wonder why.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Feb 25 2011, 18:29

Thelonious wrote:the initiative bar.


It's only returning as a visual indicator of who goes in what order... it's nothing more then a UI feature.
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Postby Neidhaart » Feb 25 2011, 22:06

And i like it.
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Postby jeff » Feb 25 2011, 23:47

OliverFA wrote:It will be interesting to see the top 3 and worst 3 lists.


I’ll be a contrarian for the sake of argument:

Best:
1-There is a HoMM6
Not much solace there if it continues down the H-V path ;|

2-Old world heroes appear in the story
A cheap trick to try and get some of us older player’s interest; far too few and far too late :disagree:

3-Paul Romero is back
Don’t care I turn the music off after the first day or so. :canthear:

Worst:
1-Is called MM:H6
I agree with Thelonious, I don’t care. My point is they changed so much they should drop heroes from the name entirely and let the new game stand on its own merits and not use the heroes franchise to cling to survival.

2-It (seems to be) less strategic, less varied, and dumbed down
I’ll have to see to see if that’s true, though launching with only 5 factions does seem limiting.

3-They are reinventing the wheel instead of expanding Heroes V in an evolutionary way.
H-V reinvented H-III without the universe tie in; with their new universe they should have boldly reinvented the game. H-IV which I loved split the Heroes community; one way to bring it back together was to create a completely new gaming system still TBS. I found H-V tedious to play and it brought back all of the bad memories of H-III I developed after playing H-IV. I loved H-III in its day, but H-IV moved it forward, I don’t care if others hated it, I didn’t. I hated H-III/Vs micromanagement of resources, creatures and such, the need to hire heroes just to ferry creatures to the frontline heroes and the untouchable hero that strikes with impunity in H-III/V.
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Postby Metathron » Feb 26 2011, 7:39

My point is they changed so much they should drop heroes from the name entirely and let the new game stand on its own merits and not use the heroes franchise to cling to survival.


I recall the same thing being said of HoMM IV back in the day. Did/Would you agree with them? I sure as heck didn't, and would say that this is not even remotely true for any of the games so far. Are the changes in HoMM VI really that radical as to transform the game into a whole other critter, or are they more along the lines of an evolutionary path? I think the latter. Bottom line: I don't care for the name change either but for different reasons (the words heroes, might, magic are still there, just rearranged a bit - certainly am not going to throw a hissy fit over that), and I don't care for the inclusion of old heroes either - If they're there - ok, if not - ok, as long as the game has depth, polish, variety and above all addictive turn-based game play I'm on board.
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Postby jeff » Feb 26 2011, 15:14

Metathron wrote:
My point is they changed so much they should drop heroes from the name entirely and let the new game stand on its own merits and not use the heroes franchise to cling to survival.


I recall the same thing being said of HoMM IV back in the day. Did/Would you agree with them? I sure as heck didn't, and would say that this is not even remotely true for any of the games so far. Are the changes in HoMM VI really that radical as to transform the game into a whole other critter, or are they more along the lines of an evolutionary path? I think the latter. Bottom line: I don't care for the name change either but for different reasons (the words heroes, might, magic are still there, just rearranged a bit - certainly am not going to throw a hissy fit over that), and I don't care for the inclusion of old heroes either - If they're there - ok, if not - ok, as long as the game has depth, polish, variety and above all addictive turn-based game play I'm on board.


You make several good points, but H-IV held onto the heroes and most of the mythos of the previous chapters. H-V started down entirely different history, all of which is fine and if they want to hang the MM tag on it fine, but how can it be 'Heroes' when that is one part of the franchise they failed to continue. Adding a few of the heroes back in is (to be polite) weak. I am not saying H-6 won't be a great game that verdict must await its release, but I fail to see the 'Heroes' aspect.
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