Who wants to see the Dwarf faction in Heroes VI?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Would you like to have a Dwarves faction in Heroes VI?

Yes, please!
17
29%
Really, No!
24
41%
I don't care.
18
31%
 
Total votes: 59

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Thelonious
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Postby Thelonious » Dec 2 2010, 9:29

I doubt that a dwarf faction would be led by a human...

And seriously; this looks as diverse as the haven faction. Add some warmachines. Perhaps a Dragon Golem or something like that.
Grah!

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Postby Variol » Dec 2 2010, 10:44

I think that, as long as they put the same number of units into each town (7) the game will get boring. Have some towns with 3-4 units, but maybe several upgrades. And other towns with up to to 7 units, with one, or no upgrades.

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Postby Thelonious » Dec 2 2010, 16:01

I disagree. Diversity can be introduced via abilities, play styles, unit types; even factions specific skills and buildings.

Normally undeads are the only with no-moral effects, dwarven warmachines could have the same abilities. Dwarven tank units could have a nice between the fast demons and apperantly fast heaven and necropolis. Dwarven technology could make slow but very high ranged attack units. Viking infulences could lead to enraged units like the HoMM IV berserkers which are uncontrolable. Cold environments, tunnels and furnaces could lead to freezing units, trapping units and fire-based attacks. Golems of all sorts and sizes (why humanoid or dwarvish forms? Why not dragon forms, mining machines and battle droids without specific forms)

Think outside of the box...
Grah!

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Postby MattII » Dec 2 2010, 21:37

Actually, I think Variol's idea is an imaginative one that could use a bit more thought, not just for the dwarves, but for the game at large.

As for the complaints that my faction is bland, I was going for a workable, explainable faction, not a spectacular one. I also see the Dwarves as far more in-turned than the humans, and thus more deserving of a tight, mostly racial faction.

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Postby Orfinn » Dec 2 2010, 22:01

I say yes please!

But with a more DIVERSE creature lineup And be still Norse/Viking inspired.

No...nono!

*temptations of lineup idea assume direct control*

Keep (max 3 dwarf units)

Core

Dwarf Shieldguard -> Dwarf Honor Guard

Slayer Dwarf -> Berserker Dwarf

Boar -> porkchop... no :p Dire Boar ^^,

Elite

Bear -> Blackbear/Whitebear.

Giant -> Thunder/Flame? Thane (not some kind of enchanted dwarf this time!)

Dwarf Beastmaster -> Werewolf/Shapeshifter? (to wolfman/wolfdwarf?)

Champion

I just came up with my idea for a champion, here it is. Hope it sounds good lore wise though...

Rune Drake. A fella who walks on all four, clad in black obsidian with white, blue, red and brown runes (the elements) scattered over its scaly body with bright yellow eyes and patterns between its scales.

The attempt to create the most powerful guardian of the dwarven Keep cities (before the Fire, Lava and Magma dragons were discovered or tamed/negotiated with to be put to any use), runed drake golems formed form obsidian are a vulable asset to any dwarf army or outsiders who can afford them.
They have a 25% chance to breath one of the following elemental attacks which I tried to stay as CLOSE to the respective elements as possible, avoiding the usual lightning for air.

Inferno breath (fire) Sets up to 2 stacks in a row on fire, dealing full dmg (to both stacks) at initial attack but does less damage over max four turns by one quarter of the initial dmg.

Flood breath (water) A flood of water halves initiative for units hit by its 2 wide, 1 tile long attack .

Duststorm breath (earth) Blinds and make sure the targeted stack loses its turn, hampers their speed by 1 and their min/max dmg with 2 each.

Hurricane breath (air) A powerful gale (3-tile wide) wind that blows back up to three stacks close to each other, 1 tile each away.

Im gonna work more on this town idea.....

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Postby BB Shockwave » Dec 5 2010, 17:43

ThunderTitan wrote:I don't mind the idea of a dwarf faction per se, but the wait it was done in H5 was lame...

I mean Giant Dwarves... wtf?


Yeah, that was what really made me cry WTF? And the whole magical angle with dwarves, plus a dragon as their highest tier unit just made no sense.

If they do a Dwarf faction, they should do it like in King's Bounty... There, we had Miners (basic infantry with night vision), Warriors (heavy-hitter slow unit), Cannoners (very powerfull and fast ranged unit with special damage against structures and ability to fire a salvo), Alchemists (poison-spray area-attacker ranged unit with limited range, and three potion abilities), and the Giants - not giant dwarves but allied creaters as the highest tier unit (ability to cause earthquakes, slow but with extremely high HP). Armored Princess added more units, like the Foremen (heavy-hitter melee unit with lots of synergies to Miners), Guard Droids (mechanical units strong in melee but weak against magic with a grapnel hook attack to pull in enemies), Repair Droids (flying droids with ranged attacks and ability to repair mechanical units) and Engineers (flame-throwing half-ranged units with ability to summon and fix droids, as well as shock enemies with potions).

I'm not saying they need to do the exact same thing - that'd be boring - but HOMM V's dwarves were very... boring, IMHO. They also looked very much alike. Hard to tell apart unit types. I'd prefer some mechanical units... in all fantasy dwarves usually create machines in the steampunk style, or excel at golem creation. HOMM and M&M ventured to that path as well, just remember the Dragon Golems, or the various robots in the M&M games, so while I am not saying we should bring in the Forge, one or two steampunk robot or powersuit for the dwarves would be neat.

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Postby Thelonious » Dec 5 2010, 22:51

Just my idea.

Note: I do admire all the work put in the line-ups here, but they do seem to be dwarven units and a dragon/giant with modifiers. And that line-up is already taken by haven (well at least as far as originality in units go)
Grah!

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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 8 2010, 10:29

BB Shockwave wrote: And the whole magical angle with dwarves,


Dwarves and runemagic have a long history, it was the boring all dwarf line up that was the biggest problem.
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Postby Panda Tar » Dec 8 2010, 19:10

Variol wrote:I think that, as long as they put the same number of units into each town (7) the game will get boring. Have some towns with 3-4 units, but maybe several upgrades. And other towns with up to to 7 units, with one, or no upgrades.


This almost gets back to Heroes 2 layout, considering that some towns had more upgrades than others, although keeping the same amount of tiers. At that time, upgrades made a huge difference (well, most of them that is), specially the Knight faction.

Regarding this dwarven lore of magic, I think they could have avoided using known spell effects for runes, which just made them spend too much resources for 'nothing original' or special, imho.
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Postby Orfinn » Dec 10 2010, 1:28

I would like it to be more like the H2 lineup too, but add some alternate creatures and/or upg would just make it better if balanced properly.

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Postby Thelonious » Dec 10 2010, 8:03

Orfinn wrote:I would like it to be more like the H2 lineup too, but add some alternate creatures and/or upg would just make it better if balanced properly.


There's your problem ;) Thing is (I've never played HoMM II though, so I've got this only from reading these forums) that HoMM II was totally unbalanced but in such a way that each faction had it's own play style. Knights were rushers, warlocks turtles
Grah!

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Postby Panda Tar » Dec 13 2010, 19:10

Thelonious wrote:Thing is (I've never played HoMM II though, so I've got this only from reading these forums) that HoMM II was totally unbalanced but in such a way that each faction had it's own play style. Knights were rushers, warlocks turtles


Yep, but warlocks had the troublesome Dragon (the only unit with 3 levels) and you could use armageddon, elemental rain and other massive spells having just him on the battlefield.

Fliers would croos the whole arena in spite of their speed.

However the faction I think was the most annoying in all means was the Elven one. Having sprites and the the ultra fast phoenixes, two strong shooters and two fairly strong melee units, they were pretty much deadly.
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Postby Pol » Dec 13 2010, 19:35

I say yes. I'm traditionalist. Bring back dwarves, titans, dragons, hydras. All the classic and well known units with tradition and good gameplay.
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Postby Pitsu » Dec 13 2010, 19:35

Thelonious wrote:
Orfinn wrote:I would like it to be more like the H2 lineup too, but add some alternate creatures and/or upg would just make it better if balanced properly.


There's your problem ;) Thing is (I've never played HoMM II though, so I've got this only from reading these forums) that HoMM II was totally unbalanced but in such a way that each faction had it's own play style. Knights were rushers, warlocks turtles


I think with Orfinns suggestion it would be possible to make it exactly the way that it is up to the player to either rush or be steady, invest into flyers or melee armies. Not every possible setup for every town, but two or three ways to adopt to map type or counter enemy strengths.
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Postby Thelonious » Dec 13 2010, 20:20

Noted; yet you mention a faction which can play in about 3 styles. That means that certain players might like the 'feel' of one faction, but the style of another. Though each faction should 'feel' good, I'll give you that. And I agree that this would be a nice way to bring more diversity; though this would probably have to be implemented through a choice system - otherwise, the styles cannot be implemented.

Though I think should be discussing a dwarf faction. Not the balance of future HoMM (or MM:H) games
Grah!

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Postby Orfinn » Dec 13 2010, 20:21

Exactly, Pitsu.

I want towns to be adaptable and let the player choose how to play the map.
Theres an enourmous amount of mythical and real-life creatures to add in, so thats not the problem.
Creature names for basic and upgrades? Not a problem with certain creativity and after thought.

Why should only certain towns be the best on certain maps? Its just wrong!

For example, in H2. Since Warlock is a turtler. It would be unfair to him on small maps were other towns are alot better rushers and on large maps it would be unfair to have the Warlock since hes a turtler and would finally get hold of Black dragons.

So my wish is that, if possible (well H5 had alternative upg, just unbalanced as heck!) H6 could get some features in an expansion pack I hope that could REALLY flesh out the Core, Elite and Champion tiers.

We have had

Basic/Creature (H1, H2, H4)

Basic > Upg (H3, H6)

Basic > Upg > Upg (H2, Warlock dragons)

Basic > Upg (H5)
or
> Upg

Creature or a different Creature (H4)



Of course, the different alternates, upgrades should make sense too, at LEAST it should be made clear in the creature description!

Why is a red dragon stronger than a green one in H2? Replacement, biologically superior, experience, age? Generally it havent been made much clear in any creature description in any HOMM game as far as I know, though I might have missed something.

ANYWAY! With so many possible ways to go, ANY town should be adaptable on any map with any kind and amount of resources avaiable. Making it all as fair as possible. But again its all about balance and with the thing aobut creature alternatives, upgrades on so on, it sure would be a headache to make it all happen.

But on topic :D

I would like to see a dwarf town with a mix of norse, celtic and east european styles. In buildings, creatures, lore inspiration. Something to do with honour, acestor worship (or fire dragon god) and loaaaads of mead :-D

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Postby Pitsu » Dec 13 2010, 20:45

not that it is important, but warlock in H1 and 2 has IMO good start. Three first dwellings can be built fast and if they happen to find lightning bolt or cold ray, then warlock can be more than a match for "rushers". I'd say resource poor medium sized maps are warlock's problem...
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Postby ThunderTitan » Dec 15 2010, 22:46

Panda Tar wrote:However the faction I think was the most annoying in all means was the Elven one.


There was no Elven faction, there was the Sorceress town... it had one elf unit.

And as Pitsu's post make clear, H2 didn't really have rushers or turtlers like we think of them in RTS's, it was more about being better suited for certain map types.
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Postby furret » Dec 16 2010, 22:54

Well, H5 had defently too many dwarves. Also, I hate dwarves. Maybe a nordic town as someone said, with a dwarf unit in it... Nah, forget the dwarf. Forget the nordic town too. It wasn't ever my favorite mytology anyways.

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Postby Panda Tar » Dec 19 2010, 16:31

ThunderTitan wrote:
Panda Tar wrote:However the faction I think was the most annoying in all means was the Elven one.

There was no Elven faction, there was the Sorceress town... it had one elf unit.


Glad you noticed a resemblance though, given that I was mainly speaking for the units like druid, pixies, unicorns and elven rangers themselves. Not that I would care naming Sorceress or Sylvan as if matters.
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