Initiative

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

Moderator: Moderators

Roman
Pixie
Pixie
Posts: 127
Joined: 02 Dec 2006

Initiative

Postby Roman » Oct 3 2010, 20:20

I have just read about the decision to revert initiative from its HoMM 5 glory back to HoMM 3 style. I really dislike this idea. HoMM 5 initiative was an excellent innovation that adds another interesting variable to combat and provides another venue for creature differentiation and strategy (e.g. this creature does less damage, but acts more often - which do I pick?). I doubt they will reconsider their decision on this, but I thought I would nonetheles voice my opinion on the matter.

User avatar
Mirez
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1511
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Location: in the core of the hart of the centre of everything

Postby Mirez » Oct 3 2010, 21:07

I agree how can a peasant move as many times as an archangel?
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

User avatar
Nelgirith
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 228
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Location: France

Postby Nelgirith » Oct 3 2010, 21:17

Mirez wrote:I agree how can a peasant move as many times as an archangel?

Dunno, how fast is an Archangel ? ;)

User avatar
Metathron
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 2704
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Location: Somewhere deep in the Caribbean...
Contact:

Postby Metathron » Oct 3 2010, 22:07

Yep, it's a total step back. With a few improvements, the HoMM V initiative system would have been the best so far, but alas...
Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

MattII
Demon
Demon
Posts: 309
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: New Zealand

Postby MattII » Oct 3 2010, 22:53

Yep the removal of a flawed-but-promising idea, never a good sign.

User avatar
Elvin
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 5475
Joined: 27 Aug 2006

Postby Elvin » Oct 3 2010, 23:22

On the other hand.. Having a hero that can cast at any time during his units' turn might be fun, I kinda missed that. Especially since who started first and who second often decided a game, esp in light vs dark games.
I, for one, am dying to find out what colour they paint Michael's toenails.
- Metathron

User avatar
TheUndeadKing
Swordsman
Swordsman
Posts: 588
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Contact:

Postby TheUndeadKing » Oct 4 2010, 3:20

Never was a big fan, so, good riddance, I say. (especially with the retaliation system the way it is - it just doesn't work.)

By the way, I think they should separate "Speed" and "Movement" just like they did in H4.
"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free..." - Michelangelo

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Re: Initiative

Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 4 2010, 6:17

Roman wrote:I have just read about the decision to revert initiative from its HoMM 5 glory back to HoMM 3 style. I really dislike this idea. HoMM 5 initiative was an excellent innovation that adds another interesting variable to combat and provides another venue for creature differentiation and strategy (e.g. this creature does less damage, but acts more often - which do I pick?).


You pick the one that acts more often because you do more dmg that way and gets to attack with no retal once.

The initiative system itself wasn't bad per se, but the value they used made some units always act twice before another and that was too much (probably done in the name of speeding up combat).

Plus, not being able to cast a spell whenever you chose but had to wait for your hero to act wasn't all that great.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!
I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €

Image

User avatar
Tress
Raider
Raider
Posts: 797
Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Postby Tress » Oct 4 2010, 7:02

I think it is good idea, but ultimately it is rather disbalanced due to effects like benediction/haste/slow. Sometimes I could get 3 attacks against enemy without retaliation. Difference between fastest slowest unit must be 2 or less times tops with all possible modifiers. Hoverer I like about it is that it can better balance moral boost - i.e it doesnt have to give second attack right away. Secondly it removes wait/ double move feature what is somewhat exploit after all, specially with no retal ability.
Giving hero initiative versus ability to cast during whenever any unit moves turn is partially good change. Way it is in homm5 is too random and sometimes first move can affect battle too much to be random.

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 4 2010, 7:16

No unit should get 2 moves for each 1 of another... the lowest should be 3 moves for each 2. Then add Haste and Slow, and then only a Hasted unit should act 2 times for 1 time of a Slowed one. if only one applies then it should be more like 1,5 for each 1 move...

All of the above being for the Fastest to the Slowest creature... everyone else should be in between.

And of course how far they can move should be different from initiative... and i'd like to see a unit with high init move very little and one with low init move very far each turn... mix it all up.

And of course units that have low init should have more HP or something else to make them worth taking.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
Nelgirith
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 228
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Location: France

Postby Nelgirith » Oct 4 2010, 7:22

TheUndeadKing wrote:By the way, I think they should separate "Speed" and "Movement" just like they did in H4.

It was in H4. It was in H5. It will be in H6.

User avatar
Tress
Raider
Raider
Posts: 797
Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Postby Tress » Oct 4 2010, 8:14

I think they should introduce initiative model like it is in some D&D rpg's(like temple of elemental evil). Each unit have 1 move/per turn, but to if you want to wait you simply push unit down the scale(lowered iniative remains for rest of battle and subsequent turns), or you can chose to put unit on top of scale if you spend turn to refocus(skip turn altogether). Also units with highest speed/initiative ratings can delay their turn for more than those with less.

User avatar
TheUndeadKing
Swordsman
Swordsman
Posts: 588
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Contact:

Postby TheUndeadKing » Oct 4 2010, 15:02

Nelgirith wrote:
TheUndeadKing wrote:By the way, I think they should separate "Speed" and "Movement" just like they did in H4.

It was in H4. It was in H5. It will be in H6.

Yeah, but you see, they were not the same, at all. In H4 you could reduce a stack's movement by casting spells, but you couldn't "slow" them down when it came down to who would act first. For instance, you could reduce the movement of Devils, but they would still act before most of the other (unaffected) units.
"I saw the angel in the marble and carved until I set him free..." - Michelangelo

User avatar
Nelgirith
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 228
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Location: France

Postby Nelgirith » Oct 4 2010, 15:53

I would love if they made some mix of H3/H4/H5. Each of them had plenty of good ideas though none was totally perfect.

H3 : One action per unit per turn, unless they have some double attack ability.
H4 : dynamic morale
H5 : dynamic initiative

Also Morale should never give a unit an extra action, but rather an initiative and speed boost.

User avatar
RommeL_666
Peasant
Peasant
Posts: 92
Joined: 11 May 2006
Location: Dark side of the moon...

Postby RommeL_666 » Oct 5 2010, 7:27

Mirez wrote:I agree how can a peasant move as many times as an archangel?


how is that archangel is 10 times stronger then peasant...
This way is more fair then it was in heroes 5,since there some of my units just die in the final battle that they even never come in turn...

but definitly would be the best from heroes 4,and one of the best things in heroes 4,retaliation strike in the same time as attack.That was the best thing that they removed,game would get at least 30% more on tactical aspect if they return that.
"There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people"

jeff wrote:Me to, I usually hire the two best looking female heroes. Ok a bit of a sexist, but if I am going to stare a pictures all day, I might as well enjoy the view. :devious:

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 5 2010, 7:34

Mirez wrote:I agree how can a peasant move as many times as an archangel?


Because they're Angels and not The Flash?!
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
Tress
Raider
Raider
Posts: 797
Joined: 05 Dec 2007

Postby Tress » Oct 5 2010, 8:00

I agree how can a peasant move as many times as an archangel?
Speed is already represented by movement range they have, and damage they do(can assume they swing several time at their target)

User avatar
intipacha
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 41
Joined: 03 Jun 2010

Postby intipacha » Oct 5 2010, 14:48

i look at it this way:

- if a creature moves faster than another, it will travel a greater distance per unit time, which is one turn. so that is the creature's SPEED

- if a creature attacks faster (magical sword or something-or-other as opposed to a barbarian's club), that is contained in the creature's attack stat (along with the efficiency of the weapon and creature proficiency with the weapon), all included in one number, the ATTACK

- if a creature is very eager to act (high morale) it will have a chance of another action in a turn, but this has to be balanced, so getting high morale is truly independent of faction

- naturally, creatures that move faster also react quicker, so in a turn-based battle, they should act first. it is only a matter of balancing the fast creatures with slow creatures in the same tier, through all factions.

- initiative could be included as a separate measure of a creature's alertness and reaction time, thus determining action order, but in my opinion it is superfluous. an equivalent game can be made without it.

- random action order and variable number of actions per turn, as it is in H5, disrupts the logic i tried to elaborate above. not to mention the extreme imbalance in cases of creatures making several full actions for another creature's single action.

so, all in all, H3 system with a bit of balancing should do the trick, and make the game more chess-like, which i'm sure is one of HoMM's main points of excellence.

initiative-based action order (ONLY order) is also acceptable.

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 6 2010, 12:05

intipacha wrote:- if a creature moves faster than another, it will travel a greater distance per unit time, which is one turn. so that is the creature's SPEED


Except that fast creatures might tire faster so move less space then one that doesn't, depending on how much time there is.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
intipacha
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 41
Joined: 03 Jun 2010

Postby intipacha » Oct 6 2010, 13:46

ThunderTitan wrote:
intipacha wrote:- if a creature moves faster than another, it will travel a greater distance per unit time, which is one turn. so that is the creature's SPEED


Except that fast creatures might tire faster so move less space then one that doesn't, depending on how much time there is.


since the smallest time available is one turn, it is assumed, i believe, that creatures do not tire in one turn.


Return to “Heroes V-VI”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests