How hard is it to look at Heroes 3 specifics for a 3D heroes

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Mirez
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Postby Mirez » Dec 12 2010, 19:16

why? sounds horrible too me
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Postby MattII » Dec 12 2010, 19:38

Well it'd make H6 look like an actual strategy game rather than a cheapjack RPG.

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Postby Mirez » Dec 12 2010, 20:03

I don't a connection between strategy and the size of units being realistic.
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Postby Pollo2002 » Dec 12 2010, 20:12

Mirez wrote:I don't a connection between strategy and the size of units being realistic.


I thought I made 2 posts that explain it.

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Postby Mirez » Dec 12 2010, 22:12

maybe but I wasn't talking to you
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Postby MattII » Dec 12 2010, 23:11

In the old games the hero was an icon for the army in H5 - and in H6 apparently - he looks like the flaming army, that's what gets me. Having units far bigger than they should be is a staple of strategy games, because trying to make them the same scale as the environment just doesn't look right.

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Postby Kristo » Dec 13 2010, 4:34

I know graphics aren't supposed to matter, but they do give you visual clues about what sort of game you're playing. In H5, you have a hero on horseback that looks like he represents...a guy on a horse. Honestly I wouldn't mind so much if the rest of the game didn't follow suit. H5 manages to not play like H3 in 3D despite having so many of the same rules. I was a beta-tester. I really wanted to like it, but I didn't. And I fear H6 will suffer the same fate in my book.

Oh well, I know where my copies of H2 and H3 are. They still work.
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Postby Pitsu » Dec 13 2010, 6:16

In older HoMM games no virtual reality was technically possible. Thus it used icons. A hero represented entire army. A monster on adventure map represented a group of monsters. An item represented an artifact. It was not a problem that a dwarf or necklace was larger than trees, because both were only icons, and details of the ”real situation” were in your imagination. Since adventure map was like a drawn map covered with carographic depicts, it was easy to suppress non-interactable and strategically irrelevant details. It is like a desktop with lot of important icons on a beautiful wallpaper. Later installments, starting from HoMM4 try to increase the virtual reality feeling, adding the third dimension and scaling proportions to more real. Yet, as long as each member of a stack or army is not drawn out or a ring is with the diameter of a finger, they are still only icons. What has changed is that strategically irrelevant details are not anymore on background. (Less importantly your imagination has to deal with a combination of iconic representation and well detailed virtual reallity.)
The success of strategy depends largely on two things: the strategist and the quality of information. Even the best strategist may fail if he has erroneous information or he is overwhelmed by it. The rise of background noise due to shiny virtual reality makes info handling more difficult. Imagine a desktop, where finding and identifying an icon requires camera rotating, zooming and/or pressing a key for a specific highlight-halo to appear. It is not comfortable. And so is shiny virtual reality the first obstacle for strategy.


Mirez wrote:maybe but I wasn't talking to you


If you want to talk only to a very specific person, perhaps use PM or address him in a clear way? Or is even this logic too complicated to understand?
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Postby MattII » Dec 13 2010, 6:45

Thank you Pitsu for enunciating the technicalities I was trying to express with much better clarity than I could manage.

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Postby Kalah » Dec 13 2010, 9:29

Yesch, a very good exchplanation, Pitschu. :)
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Postby Mirez » Dec 13 2010, 14:30

Pitsu wrote:
Mirez wrote:maybe but I wasn't talking to you


If you want to talk only to a very specific person, perhaps use PM or address him in a clear way? Or is even this logic too complicated to understand?

Granted I should have used a quote function, but apparently I overestimated Pollo2002 to understand I was replying to matII even though my post was right under it.
You see matII's post basically stated that strategy games cannot be realistic. while Pollo2002 was a rant about how 3d doesn't work in heroes and how everything should be like in the heroes 3 days.
I was not replying to Pollo2002 but to MatII, or is even this logic too complicated to understand?

However I do not understand why you have to make such an aggressive post about it, especially considering you're a moderator.
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Postby Pitsu » Dec 13 2010, 15:02

@Mirez: Sorry, since i do not like the direction where H6 seems to be going I am indeed more stressed, pissed and ill-tempered than i should.
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Postby Dave_Jame » Dec 13 2010, 16:03

Pitsu wrote:@Mirez: Sorry, since i do not like the direction where H6 seems to be going I am indeed more stressed, pissed and ill-tempered than i should.


Wow, you sounds like me and my opinion on H4. Used to by realy agresiv about it some trime ago.
Now I'm just tired af all the changes and the People.

I personaly think that a direct conversion of H3 would by just rediculas. Those who naw complain about the chnages, would be the first to complain that there is nothing new.

The onli thing that I'm sad about is that they eliminated all the good new features of Heroes V.

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Postby Mirez » Dec 13 2010, 17:10

Pitsu wrote:@Mirez: Sorry, since i do not like the direction where H6 seems to be going I am indeed more stressed, pissed and ill-tempered than i should.

thats all right, no hard feelings
Though I do agree with your previous post, I think the developers would rather have fancy graphics then a nice clear map that shows you everything without the need of pressing alt.
I think this is because they figured it's a tbs rather then an rts, which means you can (in theory) take as long as you want to make a turn. Ignoring the fact it also slows the game-pace down and makes it harder to play online.

I really wouldn't mind if they made a 'map' mode, which shows everything as icons much like heroes 3. Shouldn't be hard to make right?
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Postby Pitsu » Dec 13 2010, 19:48

Mirez wrote:I really wouldn't mind if they made a 'map' mode, which shows everything as icons much like heroes 3. Shouldn't be hard to make right?


I'am not sure about newer games, but at least h2 (which i have player most recently) has the "view world" button. And of course the view air/earth/heroes etc spells which allow to see certain things through shroud. These were good spying spells. Something like these maps could be accessible under tab ke for instance. Or perhaps the most comfortable compromise would be if the minimap that is in every game including H6, could be more customizable in its content and size on screen.
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Postby Thelonious » Dec 13 2010, 20:13

I don't think that making a 2 and 3D map would solve anyhting; it'd be hard to change a semi-realistic proportioned world into a non-realistic proportioned world.

I think that making objects of interest shine and making view obstructing scenery transparent is a real and reasonable solution.
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