some new information (27. Aug)

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Blocks100
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Postby Blocks100 » Aug 28 2010, 13:33

Does anyone really still care about the lore? Despite my admiration for the series, I hope the 'lore' doesn't stop them from implementing an Orc race.

When did the Necros split from the Wizards, and does the inclusion of the former mean HOMMVI is re-writing the lore? (if this presequel is supposedly set 400 years prior to the events in V).

They really need a classic 'greenskin' race. Whilst Tribes of the East spun a good yarn about the creation of the Orcs, I hope there's a return to the Stronghold units of III.

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Postby MattII » Aug 28 2010, 13:45

Blocks100 wrote:Does anyone really still care about the lore?

I do, although that may just be because I'm pedantic.

Despite my admiration for the series, I hope the 'lore' doesn't stop them from implementing an Orc race.

Well the Orc Crusades ended 60-65 years before H6 (depending on where you take 400 years as an absolute or approximate dating), so that's not an issue.

When did the Necros split from the Wizards, and does the inclusion of the former mean HOMMVI is re-writing the lore? (if this presequel is supposedly set 400 years prior to the events in V).

Supposedly in 770 YSD, or that's when the civil war ended anyway (it started in 751), so yes, putting the necromancers in the game when its set in 564/569 YSD will require a significant rewrite.

They really need a classic 'greenskin' race. Whilst Tribes of the East spun a good yarn about the creation of the Orcs, I hope there's a return to the Stronghold units of III.

I don't see that being likely, unless they switch universes again.

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Postby parcaleste » Aug 28 2010, 21:35

Sounds more and more like RPG and not TBS... hope I am wrong...

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Postby MattII » Aug 28 2010, 21:53

parcaleste wrote:Sounds more and more like RPG and not TBS... hope I am wrong...

I share your concerns and hopes, RPG ought to be kept for Might and Magic, not stuck in to Heroes.

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Re: some new information

Postby Metal Wolf » Aug 29 2010, 0:29

*2D animated town screens WILL be in the game

Despite that, it seems that those town screens (town windows?) will have a only minor role in H6. Town screens are an integral part of the game, and IMO should be the only exclusive way of hiring creatures and performing various tasks. It was like that since day one, and its one of the most noticeable HOMM features. I don't want every action related to the town to be executed from the adventure map. HOMM is not a hardcore Real Time strategy game, and there's no need to rush or to micromanage things very quickly.

*General principles of the revised RPG system
- Heroes can be male, female, Might, Magic
- Heroes have faction and class specific abilities
- Heroes gain skill points when they level up, that they can spend consciously on "general" abilities organized in skill categories – they have total control over their development – no more "probability-based" limited skill choices offered to the player
- Heroes can unlock advanced classes that will change their appearance and grant them an ultimate ability

Due to the limitations of previously implemented probability-based skill choices, hero development was quite diverse and changed from time to time - there was no one "correct" way to choose skills and perks.
I hope that the new system doesn't mean that there is only one "right" way to advance levels.
Other than that, sounds promising.

*More variety in the combat arenas
- Specific topography (various sizes and shapes for the battle arenas)
- Dynamic topography (seashore battle with the tide flooding the arena turn by turn)
- Different combat objectives (hold your ground for X turns, defend this sacred shrine at the center of the arena, kill a specific enemy stack, etc.)
- Boss fights!

Now that sounds really great! I've been waiting for this whole "specific topography/dynamic battlefield" since before H4 came out, and even mentioned it on the wish-list.
Specific objectives in battles sound very original, I bet those certain battles will be very exciting! As for the bosses - it worked out quite well in King's Bounty, why shouldn't it work out in H6?
That just may become another important step in the evolution of the series.

*Initiative system
Back to H3 mechanics but with a H5-like INI bar interface.

The initiative system was fine in H5, but I cant say Im gonna miss it.
In H1-4 one always knew which creature is going to attack first even before the battle begun, and therefore could arrange his army properly. It was more organized and allowed more strategic planning, opposed to the initiative system which was quite chaotic. So again, I guess that I belong to the few who are not going to miss it.

*No secondary / alternative upgrades

Now that's too bad. IMO this was the best invention of H5, a true HOMM evolution. On the other side, I understand that can't be done due to the new tier system - having 45 units (unupgraded + both upgrades) per tier (core and elite) overall is just ridiculous.

*The Artifact Sets
Nothing special – you collect them all and you get a bonus.

I hope too see the return of really powerful artifacts like in H2 and H3.

*The different tilesets
Jungle, Plains (Summer AND Autumn), Lava, Wasteland (Necropolis), Underground.

Seems a bit too few, but its quality that counts.

*Campaign structure
5 campaigns of 4 maps, 1 per faction, playable in any order, with an optional tutorial map and a mandatory prologue map.

only 20 maps and the campaign is over? Though they say that maps are going to be bigger, personally I prefer having 5-6 smaller (and more focused) maps that 4 large ones...But time will tell, no need to rush into conclusions.

*New tier system
Units are no longer divided in successive levels of strength, they fall under three categories: Core, elite and champion.
The former 2 categories have 3 units each and there is one champion unit. Take haven, the archer and the spear guy will be of comparable strength since they are both core units.

Those are most concerning news so far imo. It seems like a big deviation from the traditional HOMM path (H4 already had a bit similar experimentation, and it failed).
Besides, if there are gonna be 3 core units per town, then there's gonna be 15 core units overall and 30 including upgrades (same goes for elite units), and that seems to be too many creatures of the same tier overall. l'm afraid that every town will have its core (or elite) shooter/flyer/tank, creating too many similarities between each faction.

*Creature Siege Damage
Creature stacks can now damage the fortifications but are less efficient than catapults.

Nice - that may mean that a catapult may be harmed and destroyed (since a hero won't be "stuck" without it) - and that is opening a whole new variety of tactics in siege battles.

*Presence of critters on the adventure map
Turtles, dolphins, birds, etc.

Those small things make HOMM as unique as it is. A welcome step indeed.

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Postby Derek » Aug 29 2010, 2:16

Any word on whether tactics is going to be by default like in HV? That was an interesting change, and I'd be welcome to its inclusion once again.

On that note, I guess I'm curious as to how big the battlefields will be. HV battles seemed to end the first turn(paladins charge and kill a level 7 stack), so I'm sort of interested in whether or not the battlefield itself will be harder to cross(like in H3).
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Postby ecsunotos » Aug 29 2010, 5:09

*Town / Fort / Creature dwelling conversion will be available

Nice !! :hoo:

*2D animated town screens WILL be in the game


2D better than none


General principles of the revised RPG system

- Heroes gain skill points when they level up, that they can spend consciously on "general" abilities organized in skill categories – they have total control over their development – no more "probability-based" limited skill choices offered to the player
- Heroes can unlock advanced classes that will change their appearance and grant them an ultimate ability


Great !! but give us "a map" that we can see where the hero getting to ( Skill Wheell )

Initiative system
Back to H3 mechanics but with a H5-like INI bar interface.


What about H4 Initiative system... looks moderate ( between H3 and H5 ). There was a difference between speed and initiative !!!

*Fixed camera angle
On the adventure map, to avoid rotating the camera to locate hidden items.
Easier to manage for players and map designers, feels like 2D navigation but with the benefit of 3D coolness


OK

No secondary / alternative upgrades


Secondary / alternative upgrades are useless

Creature Siege Damage[/b]
Creature stacks can now damage the fortifications but are less efficient than catapults.


Looks unrealistic : what can puches, spears, arrows, swods of low to middle level units to do with fortifications ?

I'd rather that those ability just attributed to high level unit and not to all of them. Cyclops of HoMM V quiet fair

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Postby parcaleste » Aug 29 2010, 6:45

About that initiative system, if they are talking about that mix I am thinking, I have mixed feelings about it. I imagine the H3 round system where your creatures can act just two times per round but with the HV initiative system, which concerns the order of which the creatures attack (or defense). Perhaps it will be better balanced that way, dunno, time will tell. Still, I really enjoyed the HV ini one. :(


And about the Hero skill system again - I read somewhere about ultimate skills will be presented again. That's good, only that you will be 254567% sure you'll get to it once you go that path. No way for you (or the game :devil: ) to screw the things up. What if these Ultimates are overpowered and one will always go for them? I don't like this idea A BIT.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Aug 29 2010, 13:30

parcaleste wrote:About that initiative system, if they are talking about that mix I am thinking, I have mixed feelings about it. I imagine the H3 round system where your creatures can act just two times per round but with the HV initiative system, which concerns the order of which the creatures attack (or defense). Perhaps it will be better balanced that way, dunno, time will tell. Still, I really enjoyed the HV ini one. :(


Why would they have a h3 round system when they can easily just adjust the init numbers better?!

*New tier system
Units are no longer divided in successive levels of strength, they fall under three categories: Core, elite and champion.
The former 2 categories have 3 units each and there is one champion unit. Take haven, the archer and the spear guy will be of comparable strength since they are both core units.

*Creature Siege Damage
Creature stacks can now damage the fortifications but are less efficient than catapults.


Wow, this actually sounds good... i always wanted less power difference between lvl 1 and 7 (or whatever the max is for that particular game), i just hope the differences between core, elite and champion aren't too great.
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Postby parcaleste » Aug 29 2010, 13:53

Because you can see a "turn wheel" on the battle field screens?

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Postby ThunderTitan » Aug 29 2010, 13:55

With the creature turn bar in how would it help?!
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Postby parcaleste » Aug 29 2010, 14:40

Can't understand your question, sorry.

I mean there is a "wheel" which represents the "round". And in this "round" a creature can act with it's initiative, just two times (if morale applies) and not three or four like was in HV. I am with the impression that this is the case.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Aug 29 2010, 14:44

I didn't see it... you sure you're not confusing it with what looks to be a special ability gouge in the battle video?!

But as i said, the same effect could be gotten by adjusting the init numbers better...
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Postby SplinterHoMM » Aug 29 2010, 16:16

*Initiative system
Back to H3 mechanics but with a H5-like INI bar interface.


This is disappointing, as others have mentioned. Hopefully they will at least go to H4 style, where speed and movement range are separate stats.


Could not agree more on that!I'm tempted to repeat again and again how disappointed i am about this nonsense decision...

IMO system when speed determines movement is much stronger with haste/slow, since it allows whole army to cross battlefield in one turn (H III way).
I see at least 3 ways to better balance H V ini:
1.Reduce effects of ini artefacts (+/- 20% to +/- 10%; 10% to 5%; others give 2-3% bonus/penalty;
2.Tweak effects/abilities affecting ATB so that they work based on target ini, not ATB value.Thus slow units will be pushed beck less then fast ones;
3.Give more hp and def to slower creatures plus give to some units various kinds of Armor (new permanent stat) absorbing part of damage.

Another whole big story is to change Leadership (and Luck) skill and morale effects...
-------------------------------------------
Quote:

General principles of the revised RPG system

- Heroes gain skill points when they level up, that they can spend consciously on "general" abilities organized in skill categories – they have total

control over their development – no more "probability-based" limited skill choices offered to the player
- Heroes can unlock advanced classes that will change their appearance and grant them an ultimate ability


Great !! but give us "a map" that we can see where the hero getting to ( Skill Wheell )


Yes! i want to see on level up current skill set (like in H3-H4), plus (possibly trough right click) the path opening.
Just how i wanted an ultimate ability to appear - through advanced classes.
------------------------------------------------
*New tier system
Units are no longer divided in successive levels of strength, they fall under three categories: Core, elite and champion.


I like it more than not.Probably low level (core) units will be even more useful...

vicheron wrote:Some of these are just features from old games.

The creature system isn't really a big change either. Instead of having 7 levels of creatures, there will basically be three level 1 creatures, three level

4 creatures, and one level 7 creature.


I would say three lvl 2-3 creatures, three lvl 4-5 creatures and one level 7... ;)
*No secondary / alternative upgrades

I like both - alternative units (H4 but with possibility to change building and just one at lvl 1) - and alternative upgrades (but with really different stats,
abilities and PRICES).I want both features in Heroes game!Personally, i don't see any problem with creature number per tier.

BTW, will there be separate dwellings for each unit of same tier?Hope so...

*Creature Siege Damage
Creature stacks can now damage the fortifications but are less efficient than catapults.


I wanted this since long time ago, but, IMO, not all creatures should be able to attack fortifications - just those armed with weapons like maces and axes or
mechanical/elemental units (golems,earth elementals).Most of them could attack only gates and just few strongest (like cyclops) could attack walls.Some other creatures (like smaller reptiles or spiders) could have ability to climb walls and attack units in towers/on the walls.

It seems we can buy army from town at the fort in H6, but i'm still not sure we don't need caravans to send army from town/fort to some locations like shipyard.
If they give spell (or other ability) to summon army directly to hero, but with TOWN SELECTION, i'll like it.
Cost in movepoints and spellpoints is OK (my wish is 10% of mp per stack and 1 mana per unit).Hope there is more locations to restore mana (H4 style)...
--------------------------------------------------
*Campaign structure
5 campaigns of 4 maps, 1 per faction, playable in any order, with an optional tutorial map and a mandatory prologue map.


Disappointing!I like long campaigns (AB style) with many maps.Would like possibility to replay them with each acting side/faction and heroes from save (even enemy) in related campaigns.MP and/or coop would be fantastic!
------------------------------------------------
*The Artifact Sets
Nothing special – you collect them all and you get a bonus.


OK.Nice if they have faction/class related bonuses similar to H5.
------------------------------------------------------
*Presence of critters on the adventure map
Turtles, dolphins, birds, etc.


Nice!Looked good in H4.Related sounds would be good too (just not so loud/annoying like roosters in H4 :D )
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Postby ThunderTitan » Aug 30 2010, 17:14

SplinterHoMM wrote:
*Initiative system
Back to H3 mechanics but with a H5-like INI bar interface.


This is disappointing, as others have mentioned. Hopefully they will at least go to H4 style, where speed and movement range are separate stats.


Could not agree more on that!I'm tempted to repeat again and again how disappointed i am about this nonsense decision...

IMO system when speed determines movement is much stronger with haste/slow, since it allows whole army to cross battlefield in one turn (H III way).
I see at least 3 ways to better balance H V ini:
1.Reduce effects of ini artefacts (+/- 20% to +/- 10%; 10% to 5%; others give 2-3% bonus/penalty;
2.Tweak effects/abilities affecting ATB so that they work based on target ini, not ATB value.Thus slow units will be pushed beck less then fast ones;
3.Give more hp and def to slower creatures plus give to some units various kinds of Armor (new permanent stat) absorbing part of damage.

Another whole big story is to change Leadership (and Luck) skill and morale effects...


Or just not give units wildly different init values so we don't have units that barely get to act so you might as well just leave them in your castle, or not buy them at all.
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