Less Dragons as top lvl creature pls!

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.
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Unread postby Tress » 31 Aug 2010, 14:49

WAR has a lot of lore. I can write pages and pages of lore too.
That doesn't make it good lore. Quality > quantity
WAR as if what? If you mean warhammer then that pretty much dont count since that's not a pc game universe, but a setting meant for board game with nearly 30 year history much like d&d and it derivatives (forgotten realms) . Warcrafts plot line seriously started to evolve only with w3. Before that it was just fight between demonic orcs and humans. They retcon and "seriously extend" of that stuff now, once they try to build such extensive world. Just name one more setting created just for video gaming with nearly rich lore? Fallout and maybe elder scrolls are only things that comes to mind, and even then their are butchered by latest releases.
Quality - matter of perception. It has books, games and everything else. Not sure what you mean by quality that it lacks. Only book in MM universe I have heard about was set pre ubi created world and as much as I heard it su@# $#@$, I mean isnt any good.
If that's a dragon, I'm a mushroom.
Ye there is some resemblance with amanita muscaria, just not as red. But seriously if that doesn't proves it then I doubt that even showing dragon would prove it, so I will have to rest my case too on this matter.

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Unread postby Corlagon » 31 Aug 2010, 16:21

Rare lore of game world is so detailed and extensive as warcrafts. Like it or not MM pales in comparison.
Nope.
There are novels in the MM series too.

Warcraft's lore also generally sucks because it's been developed so hurriedly (as you said, it only really started in 2003) - I try to value quality over quantity when calling something "rich".

And frankly, I see so many mistakes in the posts chastising the lore here that it's not even worth me trying to correct them, so I'll just declare that none of you people have any right whatsoever to argue over the consistency of this series and run away :P

There is one thing, though, that I'm able to offer - the Skull of Shadows is not actually that Seventh Dragon guy's original skull, so that theory falls flat.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 31 Aug 2010, 16:38

Soronarr wrote: Gods usually don't have a physical form, and if they do they can change it.
Dragons are creatures...monsters of flesh and blood. There's nothing special about them, other than what speciality you add to them in a given mythology.
What are you on about?! Most real life mythological gods do have a form, and it's usually humanoid.
And greek gods have been specificly mention and described regarding their appearance.
No, they've not been specifically described, but generally, Zeus basically has a beard and a thunderbolt in his hand and that's his description.
The gods in HOMM - not. We don't know how they look like. They are called dragons, but that doesn't mean they are or look like one.
Anubis was described as a jackal-headed god... while the Ashan gods have been described as dragon gods... notice how that's about the same level of detail?!

That means at least one of their main form is that of a dragon...
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Unread postby Tress » 31 Aug 2010, 16:47

Nope.
There are novels in the MM series too.
Ye whole 1 (one) afaik - sea of mist and I think I red that some mm designer guy even dissed it.
Warcraft's lore also generally sucks because it's been developed so hurriedly (as you said, it only really started in 2003) - I try to value quality over quantity when calling something "rich"
Wont really argue, and agree that they pull to much to acomadate mmorpg needs but generally its not that bad. At least they dont kill characters of in intro movies.
I'll just declare that none of you people have any right whatsoever to argue over the consistency of this series and run away
No offense but what an arrogant thing to say :). After all your history compilations are much to be desired sometimes, but enaugh mud slinging.
There is one thing, though, that I'm able to offer - the Skull of Shadows is not actually that Seventh Dragon guy's original skull, so that theory falls flat.
Care to explain where that is written or said, since i didn't saw references to that in DMOMM, however I found rather intresting piece of text that is attributed Jeff Spock, Writer, and Erwan Le Breton, World Coordinator Heroes 5

http://maps4heroes.com/heroes5/skull_of_shadows_eng.php

particualry -
The potency of the Skull of Shadows lies both in its origins and its purpose. Literally speaking it is the skull of a dragon, though not from one of the corporeal dragons that exist on the surface (or in the depths) of Ashan. It is the skull of one of the dragon gods, and of a very particular dragon-god at that.
becoming himself the "Seventh Dragon." .....And the Skull of Shadows is his skull.
So how it is not his skull according to this?

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Unread postby Corlagon » 31 Aug 2010, 17:03

Ye whole 1 (one) afaik - sea of mist and I think I red that some mm designer guy even dissed it.
Three novels
Wont really argue, and agree that they pull to much to acomadate mmorpg needs but generally its not that bad. At least they dont kill characters of in intro movies.
No, I suppose they don't, but at least the characters NWC killed received climactic deaths if nothing else.
I could bring up the ultra-cheap, underwhelming death of Arthas at this point.
No offense but what an arrogant thing to say :). After all your history compilations are much to be desired sometimes, but enaugh mud slinging.
Hold on there, I didn't say that I have the right to do so either, on the contrary :D

I actually addressed this to anti-H6ers, not you, considering that they're plucking large holes in its storyline although the game hasn't so much as been released yet.

And I'll have you know that the day I'm accused of a lack of arrogance is the day pigs fly. :devious:
So how it is not his skull according to this?
I thought it was a horrendous inconsistency too, but one of the H5 storywriters cleared up the point when I inquired.
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Unread postby MattII » 31 Aug 2010, 17:10

Well I won't argue whether or not I believe the 'gods' are dragons, but I will say that it's got to be one of the lamest excuses for a creation myth I've ever heard, there's no depth to it, no subtlety, no 'lost in the mists of time' stuff, no, a dragon-god greated the world and everything in it, and that's that.

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Unread postby Pitsu » 31 Aug 2010, 17:12

If that in the video is a skull of a dragon then Ashan should be happy about not seeing dinosaurs. Just seek up how large T Rex skull is.
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Unread postby Tress » 31 Aug 2010, 17:34

Arantir would look stupid if he would try to snatch full size dinosaur skull.
Perhaps his dragon form was human sized or he shrank himself for easier handling(so he can fit and get dumped in that well in finale). After all size have nothing to do with power, when magic is in question.

No, I suppose they don't, but at least the characters NWC killed received climactic deaths if nothing else.
Oh yes Roland and Catherina got hero funeral, whole 5 lines of text in lysander campaign. And plot device of 2 swords is just cliche as hell. Wont even mention how flawed fact that they met at all was. They wanted to get rid of old world and did, simple as that
I could bring up the ultra-cheap, underwhelming death of Arthas at this point.
Well mmorpg flaws, they must allow players to win, but they made 2-3 min long event how he taunts everyone around , and 2-3 min of aftermath that wasn't that bad. Alot more respect than our favorite royal family got.

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Unread postby Corlagon » 31 Aug 2010, 19:19

They wanted to get rid of old world and did, simple as that
Yes, they certainly did. In fact they had been planning to blow up Enroth through Gelu as early as when H3: Armageddon's Blade began development, if not sooner. It's plot advancement, not plot scrappage.
Alot more respect than our favorite royal family got.
This implies that you think certain characters vitally deserve respect just because they're the protagonists, and that if the writers disrespect such a character, they're to be condemned even if they're advancing the plot.

While I can definitely agree with you on some level, you can't say H4 did not advance the plot, for better or worse.
But don't tell me you reacted similarly when, for instance, H2 came out and you found that the previous main character, Lord Ironfist, was dead all of a sudden?
And did you react in this way when H5 abandoned the previous universe and most of the characters of H1-4, actually killing one (Sandro) off, without advancing the plot whatsoever (indeed, regressing - to say the least)?
And how do you react to H6 most likely abandoning the characters of H5 (ancient history prequel)?

My point is, this series has never even pretended to have a track record of giving its main characters too much respect to begin with. :devious:

I'm not trying to put negative connotations on any of the above, to make things clear - it's just what happened.

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Unread postby Tress » 31 Aug 2010, 19:58

Yes, they certainly did. In fact they had been planning to blow up Enroth through Gelu as early as when H3: Armageddon's Blade began development, if not sooner. It's plot advancement, not plot scrappage.
Ofc I cant know what went in sick minds of scriptwriters before they made each part, but thats hardly plot advancement. It would be plot advancment if they would use materials from previous parts rather than suck characters like Lysander out of thumb, mary sue of academy campaign was even worse. Must admit they made rather interesting necromancer character, that is character that redeems many homm4 flaws. Pirate and Barbarian story aint bad either.Only character that follows is Magnus and he seemingly is quite schizophreniz since we get 3 or even four version of that guy. Chronicle/homm3/mm7/homm4 and each act in his own manner.
This implies that you think certain characters vitally deserve respect just because they're the protagonists, and that if the writers disrespect such a character, they're to be condemned even if they're advancing the plot.
Muadibs "death" in the end of dune messiah is plot advancement. This one is getting rid of perfectly good characters so they wouldn't have to bother with possible inconsistencies in plot. It is much easier to work with new set of characters. It is nearly same as in aliens 3 beginning, and guess which part of series is considered worst. People were pissed that they killed of Biehns character. Was there reason he couldn't be written in script? Ofc no.

For example i think barbarian campaign had right concept. It established new character(nothing bad about it), while keeping it along with already established one. Thing is that new guy must now overshadow already existing character, at least not till its properly established, like we have in academy story where mary sue type character just managed to defeat any opposition of already established characters who were supposed to be damn powerful.
My point is, this series has never even pretended to have a track record of giving its main characters too much respect to begin with.
Must disagree. Roland,Catherine,Gelu was pretty established characters. Writing them off just like that was fully anticlimactic, and it served no purpose for story.There was alot of chance to use them, even if they wouldnt be in a role of hero like Tarnum.Also for example they never used Archibald again even though there was alot of oportunity to give good closure to his story. Also they somehow manage to keep Tarnum along just fine.
And how do you react to H6 most likely abandoning the characters of H5 (ancient history prequel)?
I would preffer sequel myself, but since DMOMM didnt had canon ending they probably don't want to. I think closing story with DMOMM was bad decision, specially if they made TOE after that. But about that, from this perspective prequel allows to establish homm 5 characters and expand faction history. For example if they would explore sovereigns origin I think that would be good step on pulling story together. SOD in homm 3 generally was prequel and it was very well received.

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Unread postby Corlagon » 31 Aug 2010, 21:52

Ofc I cant know what went in sick minds of scriptwriters before they made each part, but thats hardly plot advancement. It would be plot advancment if they would use materials from previous parts rather than suck characters like Lysander out of thumb, mary sue of academy campaign was even worse. [...] Only character that follows is Magnus and he seemingly is quite schizophreniz since we get 3 or even four version of that guy.
A Mary Sue is typically a character without flaws. Most of the Order campaign establishes that Emilia is the opposite. Then again I suppose Isabel is the same. :lol:

What do you mean by Magnus being schizophrenic? He's the same character throughout the series.
Chronicle/homm3/mm7/homm4 and each act in his own manner.
I believe those games each had different storywriters, so that's expectable. (although either JVC or Terry Ray had a hand in all of them.)
While I agree that maybe they don't sufficiently make very overt reference to their prequels/sequels, they definitely aren't particularly contradictory of each other, and certainly not as dramatically as you suggested earlier, killing 95% of characters and such.
The only irreconcilable offences I can really think of are minor, a few H3 human heroes becoming Elves in H4 and such, and the thing with Ethric.

You want real inconsistency? How about H5's voice acting? :P
Muadibs "death" in the end of dune messiah is plot advancement. This one is getting rid of perfectly good characters so they wouldn't have to bother with possible inconsistencies in plot. It is much easier to work with new set of characters.
Read over the AB dialogue and tell me you don't think Gelu was an anti-hero, being almost obviously set up for what happened in H4. It's even foreshadowed in the final mission. That was planned to at least some extent from the moment his character was introduced. So he at least was not being callously gotten rid of.
like we have in academy story where mary sue type character just managed to defeat any opposition of already established characters who were supposed to be damn powerful.
But there are decent reasons given in the narrative why the player was able to defeat Solmyr in the early maps. He actually set out to lose.
Writing them off just like that was fully anticlimactic, and it served no purpose for story.
We can't know what the purpose of this was for the rest of the story, because obviously they went bankrupt before it could be told - although H5 was planned to be set in Axeoth again, we know that much.
But at the time (when I had no idea about Forge debacles or storywriter changes) I was also worrying why kill Gelu etc, but I appreciated that it a very daring move for a series, and in some ways one for the better because it gave the storyline a more sincere and melancholy tone truer to the global MM backstory - reinforced the idea that planets are expendable, and that we're dealing with a saga bigger than any single world. It wasn't like the storyline didn't take the destruction of the world seriously or brush it aside, since it's referenced at least eighty times in the campaigns and bios.

I thought it added credibility to the plot and series to see that the "villains" were actually capable of triumph and that Enroth was not an invulnerable setting - one which actually could be conquered and destroyed, unlike Azeroth for example which miraculously survives everything thrown at it simply because it's the Warcraft setting. Consider WCIII's incredulous, cheap scenario where a ragtag alliance destroys the second most powerful Burning Legion commander, with almost no notable casualties, by summoning Wisps.

I definitely agree that there was more potential in Enroth, but I think the new world was inevitable and ended up being implemented very well lorewise in H4 (so it was a shame, for me, that Ubi didn't choose to pursue it in H5).
Also for example they never used Archibald again even though there was alot of oportunity to give good closure to his story.
Agreed, that was rather frustrating.

I think it's also worth keeping in mind though that 9 of these games were developed between 1998-2002 and suffered lower budgets, tighter deadlines and at least two storywriter changes. Greg Fulton had been in charge of telling Archibald's story up to MM7, so when he resigned, whatever plans he had for the character were totally left in limbo and weren't salvaged for the above reasons of your choice.

By the way:
After all your history compilations are much to be desired sometimes
I'm not clear whether your meaning is literally "are much to be desired", i.e. my compilations are good, or "leave much to be desired", i.e. they are trash.
If it's the latter, please do tell me if/where I screwed up (I am fully sincere) and I will correct it posthaste, because the one thing I really don't ever want to do is propagate errors or misinformation.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 01 Sep 2010, 06:08

tress wrote:
This implies that you think certain characters vitally deserve respect just because they're the protagonists, and that if the writers disrespect such a character, they're to be condemned even if they're advancing the plot.
Muadibs "death" in the end of dune messiah is plot advancement. This one is getting rid of perfectly good characters so they wouldn't have to bother with possible inconsistencies in plot. It is much easier to work with new set of characters. It is nearly same as in aliens 3 beginning, and guess which part of series is considered worst. People were pissed that they killed of Biehns character. Was there reason he couldn't be written in script? Ofc no.

What are you on about?!

The Sword of Frost and AB meeting and blowing up the world was setup way before H4 came out and it was the expected ending to the plot started with the AB expansion.
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Unread postby Tress » 01 Sep 2010, 07:50

A Mary Sue is typically a character without flaws. Most of the Order campaign establishes that Emilia is the opposite. Then again I suppose Isabel is the same
She is classic mary sue. Troubled past to add little drama. And then suddenly from burnt bum she turns into queen and starts kick a$$ to right and left and show her high infallible morale principles. That's classic sue.
Isabel on other hand is not sue, but I would go as far as to qualify her as most annoying character MM brand have ever spawned. She is stupid, selfish, egoistic, willing to sacrifice everyone for her ambitions and worst of all all characters are supposed to save her. I wonder how feminists haven't acted yet by such portrayal. They usually get through with less reason.
I thought it added credibility to the plot and series to see that the "villains" were actually capable of triumph and that Enroth was not an invulnerable setting....
On contrary. I think I think blizzard allows evil triumph too much. If you check SC1 ending. About wc3 ending, well he underestimated elf power. I was more appalled by frozen throne ending, when character that was supposed to have 10.000 year experience of fighting lost to some weakened death knight. Again evil triumphed. In homm hoverer I wouldn't say that evil triumphed in Homm4. Evil would triumph if kreegans would go through with their plan. This one was accident that could have been avoided 100 time, but it was not for no reason. Thats also what makes it so anti-climatic.
While I agree that maybe they don't sufficiently make very overt reference to their prequels/sequels, they definitely aren't particularly contradictory of each other, and certainly not as dramatically as you suggested earlier, killing 95% of characters and such.
Well perhaps its closer to 90 but still. Problem I mention is not that. Main problem is fact that fiction writer must be careful with established characters and introducing new ones. They cant force new character up like that. For example what would happen if in LOTR Argagorn would die in second book's end and in third book they would replace him with character none heard about and he suddenly manages to gather fellowship again around himself and kick all nazguls back to Mordor. Any tv series that change protagonist are always really careful with that, for example in stargate, when they change crew they changed only one member at the time and still occasionally used old characters in secondary roles. And even then such change damaged its quality.
You want real inconsistency? How about H5's voice acting? :P
Well that's minor, but at least its first mm with voice acting. Besides I think it gets less annoying in later parts so I am willing to suspend disbelief on that part.
So he at least was not being callously gotten rid of.
Doubt that dumping it in river would do any good. That thing was indestructible, as with particular ring it would turn up sooner or later Kinda safer that way. Why they coouldnt reconcile two characters to destroy swords.... well perhaps writers couldn't think anything better. And even more if Tarnum defeats them in last mission, how then hell he got back again. I think you can avoid Gelu in that mission but still. And why he did not try to act again by finding Kilgore, or perhaps he was still shouting NOOO on his knees in that cave until homm4 start.
so when he resigned, whatever plans he had for the character were totally left in limbo and weren't salvaged for the above reasons of your choice.
That is exactly what I dont like about homm3-4 transition. They were left in limbo and simply unused, because (whatever reason) and not because it would create better story.

After all your history compilations are much to be desired sometimes
Must apologize for that one. Parts I disliked was not written by you.
The Sword of Frost and AB meeting and blowing up the world was setup way before H4 came out and it was the expected ending to the plot started with the AB expansion.
Ye they placed that in last chronicle as setup to already(or at least mostly ) written homm4 story line. AB did not mentioned single thing about blade of frost. And why in hell Lucifer did not used this feature of AB. That was pretty much sucked out of thumb in final part of chronicles.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 01 Sep 2010, 09:36

tress wrote:
A Mary Sue is typically a character without flaws. Most of the Order campaign establishes that Emilia is the opposite. Then again I suppose Isabel is the same
She is classic mary sue. Troubled past to add little drama. And then suddenly from burnt bum she turns into queen and starts kick a$$ to right and left and show her high infallible morale principles. That's classic sue.
Isabel on other hand is not sue, but I would go as far as to qualify her as most annoying character MM brand have ever spawned. She is stupid, selfish, egoistic, willing to sacrifice everyone for her ambitions and worst of all all characters are supposed to save her. I wonder how feminists haven't acted yet by such portrayal. They usually get through with less reason.
A Mary Sue doesn't actually have to be likeable in any way... and actually being one will make most people hate the character.


About wc3 ending, well he underestimated elf power. I was more appalled by frozen throne ending, when character that was supposed to have 10.000 year experience of fighting lost to some weakened death knight.
Being imprisoned for 10k years doesn't really help your fighting skills. And Arthas wasn't weakened by the final mission, you leveled him back up again, remember.



Ye they placed that in last chronicle as setup to already(or at least mostly ) written homm4 story line. AB did not mentioned single thing about blade of frost. And why in hell Lucifer did not used this feature of AB. That was pretty much sucked out of thumb in final part of chronicles.
The blade was supposed to destroy the world (set it one fire), just because the Sword of Frost being the other part of the equation wasn't mentioned yet (or even thought of by the writers) doesn't change that they set up a world destroying artefact remaining in the hands of Gelu, for him to use.

As for Lucy, he most likely didn't know about the SoF being needed, or perhaps he didn't actually want to destroy the world, just conquer it. I forget his motives, it's been a while since i played AB.
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Unread postby Soronarr » 01 Sep 2010, 09:54

tress wrote: Warcrafts plot line seriously started to evolve only with w3. Before that it was just fight between demonic orcs and humans. They retcon and "seriously extend" of that stuff now, once they try to build such extensive world. Just name one more setting created just for video gaming with nearly rich lore? Fallout and maybe elder scrolls are only things that comes to mind, and even then their are butchered by latest releases.
Quality - matter of perception. It has books, games and everything else. Not sure what you mean by quality that it lacks. Only book in MM universe I have heard about was set pre ubi created world and as much as I heard it su@# $#@$, I mean isnt any good.
Rich lore = a lot of lore with many twists.
Again, that doesn't make it good OR well-tough off. It rarely is. Very few writers devote enough time and thought to make their worlds solid.
For example - Tolkien spent years detailing his world, getting rid of inconsistencies, making sure everything flows. Nations change and events unfold logicly. It's all very tight and solid.

M&M lore? It being crap has no bearing on anything. I said it was crap before. WoW lore being a bit less crap doesn't change anything.



If that's a dragon, I'm a mushroom.
Ye there is some resemblance with amanita muscaria, just not as red. But seriously if that doesn't proves it then I doubt that even showing dragon would prove it, so I will have to rest my case too on this matter.
Of course it doesn't prove it! The video you linked showed a humanoid in reddish armor!
How on hell can that prove anything? I don't know how you brain operates, but there is a little think I like to use that is called logic and common sense.

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Unread postby Soronarr » 01 Sep 2010, 09:57

ThunderTitan wrote: No, they've not been specifically described, but generally, Zeus basically has a beard and a thunderbolt in his hand and that's his description.
They have NOT been described? I guess all that sculptures, mosaics and murals of greek and roman gods are nothing?


The gods in HOMM - not. We don't know how they look like. They are called dragons, but that doesn't mean they are or look like one.
Anubis was described as a jackal-headed god... while the Ashan gods have been described as dragon gods... notice how that's about the same level of detail?!

That means at least one of their main form is that of a dragon...
NO, that doesn't mean anything. Jackal-headed refers specificy to looks..to apperance. Dragon god doesn't. It can be a honorrific or can have a whole lot of different meanings.

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Unread postby Soronarr » 01 Sep 2010, 10:04

And since we're at the subject, writers should learn from Tolkien and even more from Bioware.

Take for instance Dragon Age. They don't tell you how the world was created or what gods there are.

They tell you what specific races believe. You hear stories and myth - but each and every one comes from a specific viewpoint...Just like in the real world. The very fact that you don't have clear fact and absolute truth adds more atmosphere and credibility to the world.

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Unread postby Tress » 01 Sep 2010, 10:09

Of course it doesn't prove it! The video you linked showed a humanoid in reddish armor!
How on hell can that prove anything? I don't know how you brain operates, but there is a little think I like to use that is called logic and common sense.
Have you ever played any part of homm or mm after 4th part?
Since if you had, you would know that I didnt meant guy in red armor, thats demon sovereign, but skull protogonist held in his hands, that is supposedly one from seventh dragon although apparently it is disputed. Agree kinda small for a dragon but its still of dragons form.
If you dont care so much about mm lore why do you care at all? The more I read the more I see that you have not even tried to get into storyline. I for example have pathalogical hatred against harry potter but I dont go to their forums and diss their book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxcqD74QM8U
Maybe this video illustrates it bit better, 1:43 into video for better reference.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 01 Sep 2010, 10:51

Soronarr wrote: They have NOT been described? I guess all that sculptures, mosaics and murals of greek and roman gods are nothing?
You mean the ones that depicted them very differently based on who made them?! I mean Hercules doesn't even have a beard in roman statues.
Soronarr wrote:Anubis was described as a jackal-headed god... while the Ashan gods have been described as dragon gods... notice how that's about the same level of detail?!

That means at least one of their main form is that of a dragon...
NO, that doesn't mean anything. Jackal-headed refers specificy to looks..to apperance. Dragon god doesn't. It can be a honorrific or can have a whole lot of different meanings.[/quote]

Yeah, you're really not stretching it there. And Anubis even has been described as just the jackal god, and there are statues of him as a jackal...

And that PA comic was done for Ubisoft BTW, so it's as close to official as it can get...

There's more evidence anyway that they're dragons, like the fact that the angels and faceless are referred to as creations and servants, while the Black Dragons are the children of a dragon god, and that they're called dragon gods, instead of just gods, which should be enough if you're talking about their power (Anubis wasn't the jackal god because jackal was a honorific). The evidence for it being an honorific is that some guy was called the 7th dragon because he got knowledge from the Dragon God of Order... so you're arguing that it's a honorific given because of other honorific... rather thin ice.
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MattII
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Unread postby MattII » 01 Sep 2010, 11:05

IMO, it's still a pretty crappy creation myth.


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