Less Dragons as top lvl creature pls!

[ThunderTitan]

b.t.w. - reffering to gods as dragons doesn't mean the gods are actual dragons.

Just like referring to them as Gods doesn't meant they are gods?!

[Tress]

b.t.w. - reffering to gods as dragons doesn't mean the gods are actual dragons.

Dragon gods are actual dragons. In dark messiah you can see scull of seventh dragon. That one was originally human but still he was considered on par with them

[Elvin]

That was not his actual skull, there's a story behind that. You should ask Corlagon.

[ThunderTitan]

That was not his actual skull, there's a story behind that. You should ask Corlagon.

So Ashan has false advertising already...

[Tress]

Well not to turn this into Ashan lore topic but I always thought dragons are powerful yet tangible creatures.
During dark messiah I think there was no indication that seventh dragon was not actually dragon. Perhaps they can take form they want but their native form is that of a dragon. In Ashas case even multiple head version. Wonder if Urgash as twin dragon have several too.
Also Malsaras and Sylannas offspring are real dragons, so there is no reason to think that mother is not.

[Soronarr]

Well think about it. People usually give gods a powerful form. And what's the most powerful form your lowly peasant knows of? Dragon.

Especially early on, imagine a caveman facing a dragon. To him, it would be like a force of nature. And that sticks.

Calling someone a dragon may even be a honoriffic.

[ThunderTitan]

Right... because calling someone a god isn't one. Gods >>> Monsters.

The lore refers to them as dragons, and to dragons as their children... and while they should be able to change form Occam says them being divine dragons is the best explanation.

[Soronarr]

Occam can kiss my ass. His razor isn't a viable theory or proof of anything.

It's not the simplest explanation and it's not the most sensible one either.


And yeah...all the new lore. I hate it. I hate it so much. Way to ruin an interesting world ubi. Good going.

[Tress]

And yeah...all the new lore. I hate it. I hate it so much. Way to ruin an interesting world ubi. Good going.

At least it keeps itself consistent with itself. For older parts you were lucky if plot was consistent within each part, and 3do killed it already by sweeping 95% of old characters from board byt thinking up most lame(and not to mention inconsistent and and ripped of) plot twist, to semi- reboot lore themselves. Ubi just rebooted it once more, and at least they didn't directly spit in face of previous part characters by killing them of in 20 sec animated video.
Apart from lame voice over and cheesy characters(specifically Isabel/Freyda), general background plot outline and faction background is ok. So what if gods are dragons. Warcraft use such concept all the time and none complains.Dragon aspect are pretty much gods(or at least demigods charged to watch over something - time, life, earth etc) there, there of course are lots of other deities, some more, some less tangible but dragons are nearly gods there.

[ThunderTitan]

@Soronarr

That's because his razor isn't a theory, is a way to cut down on the work you do to test a hypothesis... if you want to prove the more complex explanation is the right one you'll have to prove it. In absence of you proving it it's better to default to the simplest explanation, which is that the gods that are called dragons are indeed dragons...

And which new lore?! Because the new world was lame from the get go.

@tress

Right, it's so consistent that the Necro's shouldn't be a different faction from the Wizards in H6, and the Demons shouldn't be able to be around without an eclipse, but now we have a Hell Knight, which the demons must have forgotten about by the time of Heroes 5. Consistency is hard the more games you make in a series/world.

[Tress]

Right, it's so consistent that the Necro's shouldn't be a different faction from the Wizards in H6, and the Demons shouldn't be able to be around without an eclipse, but now we have a Hell Knight, which the demons must have forgotten about by the time of Heroes 5. Consistency is hard the more games you make in a series/world.

Well if i am correct then heroes 6 is set 500 years before, so according to faction bio Necromancy is discovered by then. It is not powerful political force but there is no reason to assume that they did not have resources to be able with help of royal power to form army of undead. Ofc must admit that to make better sense they should have set it less back, but we know only plot outline now so I wont blame till see it myself and how they explain it.
About demons - 500 years prior to HOMM5 we have "564 YSD: 2 nd Eclipse" or we can assume its leftower from first eclpse if it;s set before that so we have demonic invasion then- as I said I wont bash plot outline before i see it all. Also Hellknight - mortals infused/corrupted by demonic power. I think Agrael was just that. Elf bound in demonic armor and able to function on surface without demon limitations. Hell Knight part makes perfect sense imo.

[ThunderTitan]

Yeah, Agrael seems to be the only one... it's like Ashan works backwards... first there are many then there is one.

And like i said, the Necromancers are still part of the Silver Cities... thus shouldn't have their own cities...

And of course all inconsistencies in the old world could be explained in some convulted way, so same thing.

[Tress]

Yeah, Agrael seems to be the only one... it's like Ashan works backwards... first there are many then there is one.

Well some were surprised that he wasnt demon but there was no indication that he is only one of his kind. I mean there must have always been cultists and demon worshipers, Menelag for example. Also demons didnt saw him as something special. they rarely comented on his elf background so I can even assume thats common enaugh to not mention. There is alot of rational explanations I can think 1) Its not common knowledge they are humans underneath armor, and since heart of gryphon that banished them as weapon wasnt present then, there was no way to separate true demons from corrupts., besides Tieru instantly understood what he is so most likely he have seen one before 2) It was popular weapon back then, but its less used later, for some reason (maybe sovereign doesn't like them- maybe he even was human himself and he dislikes or fears them for some reason)

About necromancers must agree for some part, but I want to see bigger picture prior to start bashing.

[Soronarr]

@Soronarr

That's because his razor isn't a theory, is a way to cut down on the work you do to test a hypothesis... if you want to prove the more complex explanation is the right one you'll have to prove it. In absence of you proving it it's better to default to the simplest explanation, which is that the gods that are called dragons are indeed dragons...

And which new lore?! Because the new world was lame from the get go.

Except it's not the simplest or the most sensible ones.

gods are dragons? It's just as sensible as gods are mushrooms.

Gods usuallydon't have a physical form, and if they do they can change it.
Dragons are creatures...monsters of flesh and blood. There's nothing special about them, other than what speciality you add to them in a given mythology.

And yes, all of the new lore.
I used to think Dragon Age was bad with it's dragonskin, dragonthorn, dragonbone, dragonX.
They used to be such awesome creatures. Now their overuse and showing into everything has turned my love for them into hate.


Personally? HOMM3 and 4 were teh start of hte background downward spiral. I wouldn't care if they gave the previous lore the finger and re-booted everything again. Or jsut ignored all the HOMM's who's background sucked.

[Tress]

gods are dragons? It's just as sensible as gods are mushrooms.

And if I would be writer I could write it so, that god's physical form looks like giant mushroom.Homm is not documentary on god physical form.
Besides whats with axiom that god cant have physical form? Greek gods had human default form, although they could transform at will. Actually in most fiction and religions except those based on judaism(christianity, Islam) have tangible gods.
And what the hell is wrong with god being a dragon. As I said warcraft uses such concept NP. Perhaps they can shift as will but they have default form. As example I can mention warcraft again. All dragons, and their aspect(leaders/demigods) usually take human or elf forms to interact with mortals.
If we check on other fiction, legacy of kain or same warcraft old gods for example, God look like giant squid there(based on cthulu and such mythos). They can manifest themselves as they please but they have true form.
We can check yet another fiction and check Elder scrolls for example, and see that god look like some sort of elves.
Bottom line is that dragon gods are far from worst and least sensible idea out there. Each fiction writer can create god in manner he wishes.

Personally? HOMM3 and 4 were teh start of hte background downward spiral. I wouldn't care if they gave the previous lore the finger and re-booted everything again. Or jsut ignored all the HOMM's who's background sucked.

Actually prior to HOMM 3, homm fantasy part hardly had any lore. 2 brothers as only characters with spoken lines and personality duking it out for throne can hardly be called, fleshed out lore.

[Soronarr]

gods are dragons? It's just as sensible as gods are mushrooms.

And if I would be writer I could write it so, that god's physical form looks like giant mushroom.Homm is not documentary on god physical form.
Besides whats with axiom that god cant have physical form? Greek gods had human default form, although they could transform at will. Actually in most fiction and religions except those based on judaism(christianity, Islam) have tangible gods.

And greek gods have been specificly mention and described regarding their appearance.
The gods in HOMM - not. We don't know how they look like. They are called dragons, but that doesn't mean they are or look like one.

And what the hell is wrong with god being a dragon. As I said warcraft uses such concept NP. Perhaps they can shift as will but they have default form. As example I can mention warcraft again. All dragons, and their aspect(leaders/demigods) usually take human or elf forms to interact with mortals.

And WC lore sucks donkey balls.

Each fiction writer can create god in manner he wishes.

Precisely. So find a line that confirms these gods are, and in fact look like, dragons.

Personally? HOMM3 and 4 were teh start of hte background downward spiral. I wouldn't care if they gave the previous lore the finger and re-booted everything again. Or jsut ignored all the HOMM's who's background sucked.

Actually prior to HOMM 3, homm fantasy part hardly had any lore. 2 brothers as only characters with spoken lines and personality duking it out for throne can hardly be called, fleshed out lore.

And yet is was better and more engaging than the stories that came after. Shocking isn't it?

The strength of HOMM2 was that it felt so..grounded, so close. Similar to the first Command and Conquer. It's whole atmosphere was such that it really felt like it was just around the corner.

Why? Hard to say. Maybe because it didn't try to mix everything in it. Which is the failing of D&D. When you just have too much stuff from every culture, lore and mythology..it just doesn't work well...It's like just plopping every ingredient you can think off in a pot.

Or think of it like this: Ninjas? cool. Pirates? Cool. Robots? Cool. Zombies? Cool. robot-ninja vs. zombie-pirate? Cool.

Flaming giant robot blind ninja on a rocket vs. rotting zombie cyborg pirate on a dinasaur? Ehhh... At one point you got to stop.

[Tress]

And WC lore sucks donkey balls.

Iam not much fan of warcraft lore eiher but l ike or dislike, at least it's detailed and extensive. Apart from several plot points I cant really diss it. Rare lore of game world is so detailed and extensive as warcrafts. Like it or not MM pales in comparison.

Precisely. So find a line that confirms these gods are, and in fact look like, dragons.

1) there is no reason to think that Malsara or Sylanna doesnt look like anything its daughters/sons
2) seventh dragon's skull was that of a dragon. Like it or not it was that of dragon's form and i haven't seen another explanation . Unless you give me other explanation than that it was genetic birth defect at his human birth that deforms heads form and he looked like that as a human I must assume his head looked like dragons because of his transcendence to god/dragonhood.
3) There is no basis that would support that they don't look like dragons in their physical form other than your dislike towards them as dragons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqJCLXArS3E
Looks like dragon to me.

[Pitsu]

And WC lore sucks donkey balls.

Iam not much fan of warcraft lore eiher but l ike or dislike, at least it's detailed and extensive. Apart from several plot points I cant really diss it. Rare lore of game world is so detailed and extensive as warcrafts. Like it or not MM pales in comparison.

But isn't warcraft famous because WC I and WC II had excellent gameplay? If the lore would be less detailed, how many would stop playing WoW because of that?

[OliverFA]

Definately phoenix. It's so bad-ass it defies description an roasts dragons for breakfest.

It should be glorious. It should be awesome. It should be the strongest and awesomenest of all units...except MAYBE angels.

Either that, or make it the ultimate summong spell.

I liked the way in which H5 treated the phoenix. One of the best features of the game IMO. Is good to have a neutral creature of higher level than the highest in any town. Like the phoenix (Lv8) in H5 and the Azure dragon in H3

[Soronarr]

And WC lore sucks donkey balls.

Iam not much fan of warcraft lore eiher but l ike or dislike, at least it's detailed and extensive. Apart from several plot points I cant really diss it. Rare lore of game world is so detailed and extensive as warcrafts. Like it or not MM pales in comparison.

WAR has a lot of lore. I can write pages and pages of lore too.
That doesn't make it good lore. Quality > quantity

Precisely. So find a line that confirms these gods are, and in fact look like, dragons.

1) there is no reason to think that Malsara or Sylanna doesnt look like anything its daughters/sons
2) seventh dragon's skull was that of a dragon. Like it or not it was that of dragon's form and i haven't seen another explanation . Unless you give me other explanation than that it was genetic birth defect at his human birth that deforms heads form and he looked like that as a human I must assume his head looked like dragons because of his transcendence to god/dragonhood.
3) There is no basis that would support that they don't look like dragons in their physical form other than your dislike towards them as dragons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqJCLXArS3E
Looks like dragon to me.

If that's a dragon, I'm a mushroom.

You're points aren't convincing at all. Is that all you got?
If so, then I rest my case.