What's The Worst Faction ?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby ecsunotos » Sep 20 2010, 9:22

People getting too seriously discussing about "history of HoMM Universe" I guess. I hope it won't getting hot till become World War III. :P
Go on, it's interesting anyway... :D

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 20 2010, 11:38

This reminded me of this little discussion we're having here: http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2010 ... arguments/

This should be relevant to people arguing against Slayer:

And yet, like the “Paul Is Dead” myth, this one will not die. Believers of the pre-Hartnell theory come up with elaborate explanations as to how the Doctor could have lived more than thirteen lives, pointing to the Fifth/Thirteenth Doctor’s cryptic dialogue (“I might regenerate…feels different, this time…”) and the erratic post-regenerative personality of the Sixth Doctor as hints that the regeneration was a truly unique event that has yet to be explained. (These people are insane. Argue with them at your peril.)
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 20 2010, 12:41

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Postby ecsunotos » Sep 21 2010, 9:21

Although HoMM Universe has some kind of blue print or bible. But interpretation or understanding of it might be vary between fans.
No one can be called as the most perfect in understanding the history as well as no one is perfectly wrong.

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Postby Darkström » Sep 21 2010, 17:10

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It is as I said, that the wizards of Ashan have destroyed much their history and the memory of what connects them to Heroes IV out of shame that they practiced necromancy in those days.


Go on, explain away everything that contradicts your theories.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 21 2010, 22:53

Darkström wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It is as I said, that the wizards of Ashan have destroyed much their history and the memory of what connects them to Heroes IV out of shame that they practiced necromancy in those days.


Go on, explain away everything that contradicts your theories.


I've already done that to absurd degrees of detail already. But if you want me to go through it in one place, well I suppose I've got time. Be warned it might be a little long.


Theory

That Ashan was once Axeoth, the world of Heroes IV and Might and Magic IX. However the events of Heroes V happen over 500 years before the beginning of the time-line of Heroes V as written here. http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/he ... line.shtml

By the time the Heroes V campaign starts, it is almost 1500 years ago. It's like the era of ancient Rome is to us.

So Heroes IV is at the beginning of what is called the Ancient Age, of which they have almost no historical knowledge, even the date of the one event they do remember is unknown.

The Mythic Age is the world of Heroes III, II and I and Might and Magic VI to VIII. The ending of that age, the clash between the dragon of order and chaos, is a 'mythologized' reference to the reckoning and the final fate of the Kreegans before the reckoning, when most of them were cast into the fiery realm (that Gauldoth breaks into to rescue Kalibarr his master).

The principal evidence to support this is the fact that in the Heroes V campaign, (even the last one) character from Heroes IV are referenced, but in a mythologized way. Crag Hack is mentioned by Isabel (how many people have a name like that!) and in the final game Solymr a 'legendery genie' is mentioned.

Sandro has a more active role however, leading a secret necromantic cult in the Griffin/Falcon Empire (from which two of the necromancer heros, Markal and Lucretia learned their art). But he is an immortal liche with a talent for survival, he could easily have survived 1500 years. Anyhow, he is destroyed along with Lorekeep by fanatical griffin knights allied with the wizards and dies the 'final death' fairly shortly before Heroes V campaign.

The final piece of evidence is the reference to Axeoth and kingdoms like in town descriptions and even to Emilia Nighthaven final resting place being a town called Yafiah. These are done in a historical sense, they refer to past events that are associated with said town.


Contradictions


1: The origin of necromancy.

According to the time-line necromancy is discovered by Belketh in 461 YRS.

461 YSD.

Discovery of Necromancy
Belketh, a disciple of Sar-Shazzar, discovers the path of Necromancy. Necromantic experimentations begin in the Seven Cities.


This however is not an uncontested fact. There are clues in the time-line itself that that is untrue, while Belketh may have been an important contributor to necromancy, he was not it's originator. The first of these is the preceding statement.

74 YSD.

Mysterious Death of Sar-Shazzar
Sar-Shazzar dies in his sleep. When attendants attempt to move his body to the Necropolis for preparation and burial, it crumbles to ashes.


A vampire uniquely of all Ashan's creatures when it dies crumbles to ashes. While this is conjecture, in the time-line this bit is specifically marked as pale green, if you look at the key, anything marked pale green is relevant specifically to the necropolis faction. Yet nothing relevant to the necropolis faction is written there, except the clue of him turning to ashes.

Remember that Sar-Shazzar created the Silver Cities and established the schools of wizardry at which the wizards learn their history. They have a definitive motive to suppress the truth that Sar-Shazzar was a vampire and taught necromancy to Belketh (who did not discover it), based upon the hatred they would later develop for the necromancers. As Raven puts it.

"The council has a weakness for the purifying effects of fire". As the adage goes, 'those that burn books end up burning people' except in reverse.

The necromancer Naadir (in the scenario Refugee) spends an awful amount of time and expenditure of resources (which with the destruction of Heresh they don't really have) on finding a complete and uncorrupted (by whom?) version of the teachings of Sar-Elam.

Why would at a time of such desperate peril so much be expended for this one purpose. Because ultimately the finding of concrete evidence that Sar-Elam taught necromancy (and thus proving Belketh did not invent it) is more important than anything at all. The one thing more valuable to the necromancers than their own survival in this time of peril is their history; because in the long run being able to prove that the wizards have falsified their history is a moral victory for necromancy.

If Sar-Elam taught necromancy, then as someone had to have taught it to Sar-Elam, someone in the Ancient Age (the legacy of Heroes IV), the contradiction is resolved.

2: The origin of the Orcs.

As referenced here.

330 YSD.

1st Eclipse - War of the Blood Moon – Creation of the Orcs
A total lunar eclipse provokes a massive rupture of the Demon Prison. The Demon Lords force their way out and wreak havoc across the lands. Armies rally to meet them, but, caught by surprise, they are rapidly overwhelmed.
The Demons are finally defeated but at a most terrible cost. The Demon Lords are cast down, and the surviving demons banished back to their hellish prison. The Dragon Knights emerge from hiding to repair the prison as best they can, then vanish once again.
Called upon for assistance, the wizards of the Seven Cities send their forces into battle. They experiment with demon blood, which they inoculate into human slaves and criminals. The monstrous Orcs are created as a result. Bolstered by the Orc shock troops, the Alliance defeats the Demons. The Demon Lords are cast down, and the surviving demons banished back to their hellish prison. In the wake of this second demon war, Orcs are re-settled in the Falcon Empire as well as the Seven Cities. They are not granted their freedom, but instead serve as indentured troops.


The wizards apparently created the Orcs from 'human slaves and criminals'. Except it doesn't actually say that does it? What is says is that they experimented with injecting demon blood into human slaves and criminals. (full stop) As a result of the experiments the monstrous Orcs are created (along with they don't say, Centaurs, Goblins, Cyclops and so on since all have blood rage, which comes from demon-blood).

This is however a weak argument, but I have a far better ace up my slave. You see the wizards in their creature-creating have slipped up once again. It says this about gremlins.
Gremlin
Creatures born as result of magical experiments on captured goblins, Gremlins are more clever and tractable than their progenitors. The most common creature in the Wizards' army, they prefer to fight from a distance using primitive projectile weapons fuelled by explosive spells. Their clumsy hand-held mortars are sturdy, and during melee Gremlins use them as metal clubs.


You see goblins like all 'Orc' creatures were created from humans by injecting demon blood into them. But gremlins do not have blood rage do they? Gremlins are either not the result of experiments on goblins, or there were goblins preceding the creation of the orcs, one's which didn't have demon-blood in their veins.

All of sudden the question must be raised, what else aren't they telling us? It wasn't just humans that they experimented on, it was goblins as well.

That is the side of the half-truth that they have suppressed. The experiments on humans were a failure, the humans died. So they turned to more chaotic creatures, the goblins, the orcs, the cyclops. And succeeded in created the tainted half-demonic monsters they desired.

And as they needed to expand their Orc legions they rapidly hunted down and recruited (this means enslaved by magical means) the remaining creatures and corrupted entire races. This explains following events.

467 - 504 YSD.

The Orc Crusades
Orcish rebellion in the Seven Cities, which spreads to Haven. Rejecting their masters and the Dragon Gods, the Orcs declare themselves free. In the Falcon Empire, Crusades are declared against the Orcs – attempts to subjugate them and convert them back to dragon worship. The fighting is brutal, and the Orcs are relentlessly driven back. Eventually, the unrepentant survivors flee wherever they can, including the deserts of the south, the steppes of the north-east and the Barrier Islands of the east, A great storm sinks the Haven fleet that was prepared to follow the Orcs to their island refuge. The Falcon Emperor declares this a sign from the Dragons, and formally ends the Orcish Crusades.


Once again the wizards (and Haven) have a political motive to alter their history. Black as their history is in this case, the truth is even darker. They didn't just create a race of monsters, they destroyed entire races in the process.


3: The origin of the beast-men

512 YSD.

Creation of Beast-men
Beast-men (minotaurs, centaurs, harpies…) are created as servants, playthings, and guards in the Seven Cities. Their stated purpose is to replace orcs.


We know of course that the centaurs already exist as they are 'orcs' (created from human slaves and criminals). That leaves only minotaurs and harpies.

Apparently they did all this in about a year. Now if they were able to create so many creatures from scratch in so short a time, why can't they still do it? If I feel I want to create 'fly-people' or 'spider-people' or 'cat-people' or pig-men, why I can't I do so? Custom creatures for wizard players everywhere, damn the programming expense.


Along with the other Beastmen, the Minotaurs, half-man and half-bull, were created by the Wizards of the Seven Cities as replacement for the Orcs. They fled east, and underground, to earn their freedom, but they were later conquered by the Dark Elfs and once again bound in chains and muzzled. In the Dark Elf society, the Minotaurs are used as menial labour to perform the most degrading and tedious tasks. Despite this treatment, the Minotaurs are known for their bravery and dignity. They will perform any task to the utmost of their ability, including fighting for those who treat them as slaves. They hope some day to earn their freedom; the Dark Elves fear that some day, they will seize it instead.


The principal problem is that the minotaurs appear to have all dissapeared underground en-masse with no apparent real fuss from the wizards. No great crusades to convert them back to dragon-worship, no nothing.

The solution here is that create does not necessarily mean ex-nihilo. In all likely-hood they merely recruited (this means enslaved by magical means) the existing minotaurs and modified them in minor ways to make them more useful and loyal (hence why they always have +1 morale).

They didn't create minotaurs from scratch, they created a new 'brand' of minotaur from an older version.

There was no great drama about the minotaur rebellion because in the end the wizards decided they just weren't enough use to be worth the cost of re-subjugating them and so they simply left en-mass to be enslaved by the dark elves who had a different opinion as to their usefulness.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 22 2010, 16:16

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Any application of sci-fi tech (more advanced than present) in a fantasy game (thus medieval or at best early-modern tech) cannot be done, without making it unrealistically weak (and thus in what sense advanced) or allowing those with the tech to slaughter everyone else.


Medieval troops against someone that can throw fireballs by waving their hands is even less realistic... hell, a million swordsmen would actually be pretty useless against a giant fire-breathing-flying-lizard... you'd need ranged troops just to get to it and then arrows might not even penetrate the skin of such a large scaly creature.

Tehre's no reason why SF weapons need to be more powerful then magic... after all, Clarke was right, nay sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic...


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:I don't understand though why you are so hostile to me using my imagination to work out why the alien Kreegans of Might and Magic would turn into the demonic Kreegans of Heroes?


People are hostile to you saying that your fevered imaginings are somehow the truth... when it's obvious that Ubi decide to ditch Axeoth wholesale.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 22 2010, 20:01

ThunderTitan wrote: Medieval troops against someone that can throw fireballs by waving their hands is even less realistic... hell, a million swordsmen would actually be pretty useless against a giant fire-breathing-flying-lizard... you'd need ranged troops just to get to it and then arrows might not even penetrate the skin of such a large scaly creature.

Tehre's no reason why SF weapons need to be more powerful then magic... after all, Clarke was right, nay sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic...


You are no more dead if you get fire-balled than you are if someone hacks you with a sword or shoots an arrow at you.

It is evident that the Kreegans of Heroes III and Heroes IV are not armed with high-tech laser guns or any form of mortal technology.

Yes, magic is the reason the alien-Kreegans failed to take over the world with their high-techness, apparently their hive was destroyed by magical means.

But that doesn't change the fact that it is clear that the Kreegans of Heroes IV are not the same type of Kreegans as the one's that live in hives and have sci-fi tech.

ThunderTitan wrote:
People are hostile to you saying that your fevered imaginings are somehow the truth... when it's obvious that Ubi decide to ditch Axeoth wholesale.


Except they unfortunately made that decision way after starting creating Heroes V. Given the references to earlier Heroes games in Heroes V.

Too late I'm afraid. An author of a story cannot suddenly declare that what they have published never happened however much they may regret writing it.

Yes I use my 'fevered imagination', it is funny that such a hostility to imagination is displayed in relation to an imaginary world and story.
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Postby theLuckyDragon » Sep 22 2010, 20:23

Except they unfortunately made that decision way after starting creating Heroes V. Given the references to earlier Heroes games in Heroes V.


So you're admitting they took that decision, albeit late... I.e. basically you're admitting Axeoth was indeed ditched and there are no real connections between Axeoth and Ashan, just coincidences. Just Ubisoft or whoever fooling around with names that older players recognize.
Sounds so to me :)


Too late I'm afraid. An author of a story cannot suddenly declare that what they have published never happened however much they may regret writing it.

Says who? :| It's called retconning, I think.


Yes I use my 'fevered imagination', it is funny that such a hostility to imagination is displayed in relation to an imaginary world and story.

If I am allowed to be a bit philosophical, and of course subjective... you are of course free to imagine whatever you like... as long as you don't try to impose your point of view onto others, because you're infringing their freedom.
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Postby Corlagon » Sep 22 2010, 20:34

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Yes I use my 'fevered imagination', it is funny that such a hostility to imagination is displayed in relation to an imaginary world and story.


There is absolutely no problem with coming up with possible theories to reconcile plotholes or link the universes together. That's encouraged - everyone interested in the storyline has done that. It's even led to awesome fanmade campaigns and a comic. The problem (and resultant hostility) begins when you start presenting these theories as unequivocal fact, or canon, especially if you have no real proof for your ideas.

It's annoying because any newcomer could just wander in here by accident, see page after page of posts stating "No, Ashan is Axeoth, in the far future" in unerring fashion, and start wondering which game they missed out on or why they haven't heard this before.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 22 2010, 20:51

theLuckyDragon wrote:So you're admitting they took that decision, albeit late... I.e. basically you're admitting Axeoth was indeed ditched and there are no real connections between Axeoth and Ashan, just coincidences. Just Ubisoft or whoever fooling around with names that older players recognize.
Sounds so to me :)


Not necessarily. I'm saying that if that were so, they have added sufficient clues to the campaign that Ashan is either Axeoth or in a boring history repeats itself way connected to it in a similar way that Enroth and Axeoth are.


theLuckyDragon wrote:Says who? :| It's called retconning, I think.


Yes it has a name but it's still bad form. Especially when you hint that something is true and then backtrack for no good reason.

If I buy Harry Potter I expect to read a book about the certain boy wizard in Hogwarts who has done all things I have read about in the earlier books. Not about a completely different boy wizard with a completely different background.

It's the same with Heroes, you can't call something Heroes V if it is no way a continuation of Heroes IV or Heroes III or Heroes II. It is insulting to say "well none of that ever happened, but I'm gonna carry on calling it Heroes V anyway".

theLuckyDragon wrote:If I am allowed to be a bit philosophical, and of course subjective... you are of course free to imagine whatever you like... as long as you don't try to impose your point of view onto others, because you're infringing their freedom.


This is the internet on a moderated forum, I couldn't infringe on anyone's 'freedom' even if I wanted too.

Corlagon wrote:There is absolutely no problem with coming up with possible theories to reconcile plotholes or link the universes together. That's encouraged - everyone interested in the storyline has done that. It's even led to awesome fanmade campaigns and a comic. The problem (and resultant hostility) begins when you start presenting these theories as unequivocal fact, or canon, especially if you have no real proof for your ideas.

It's annoying because any newcomer could just wander in here by accident, see page after page of posts stating "No, Ashan is Axeoth, in the far future" in unerring fashion, and start wondering which game they missed out on or why they haven't heard this before.


The references to Axeoth are already in the game. If there were no references at all, I would have no evidence to say that there are directly connected or the same.

The references suggest that Ashan is Axeoth in the far future. The history in only 3 places, contradicts this. The references have precedence over the history, because the history can be mistaken (and there are clever clues within the history that is *is* mistaken in one place).
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Postby theLuckyDragon » Sep 23 2010, 7:16

It's the same with Heroes, you can't call something Heroes V if it is no way a continuation of Heroes IV or Heroes III or Heroes II. It is insulting to say "well none of that ever happened, but I'm gonna carry on calling it Heroes V anyway".

M-a-r-k-e-t-i-n-g sounds like a more simple explanation.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 23 2010, 8:47

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:If I buy Harry Potter I expect to read a book about the certain boy wizard in Hogwarts who has done all things I have read about in the earlier books. Not about a completely different boy wizard with a completely different background.

It's the same with Heroes, you can't call something Heroes V if it is no way a continuation of Heroes IV or Heroes III or Heroes II. It is insulting to say "well none of that ever happened, but I'm gonna carry on calling it Heroes V anyway".


You don't get how brands work, do you...


The references suggest that Ashan is Axeoth in the far future. The history in only 3 places, contradicts this. The references have precedence over the history, because the history can be mistaken (and there are clever clues within the history that is *is* mistaken in one place).


Yeah, whatever doesn't suit your hypothesis could be mistaken, but none of the stuff that supports it could be, because a town bio and some hackneyed references to old heroes that don't make much sense on their own (which is where your imagination comes in) are iron clad proof, beter then the word of the guys that own M&M.
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Postby ecsunotos » Sep 23 2010, 9:15

I think : Ubi wasn't comfortable to the old story line and felt that it couldn't be improved. So they changed it.
As long as they feel comfy or can improve the story of the next series based on the new story line, it should be okay for fans.... ;)
But, it's a pitty. They couldn't prove it for HoMM V :disagree:

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Postby Zenofex » Sep 23 2010, 9:36

In my opinion Ubi don't know the story of the original M&M world, simply some of their rookies played HoMM III and/or IV and decided that this is it. The NWC M&M universe is vast, the stories within it could be everything from standard fantasy, through sci-fi - fantasy hodge-podge, to pure sci-fi. It is much easier to work with such nearly unrestricting framework than with your regular, much more limited Tolkien-like fantasy world, which is the base of Ashan. It's quite a lazy and unprofessional approach, but nothing can be done about it at this stage.

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Postby ecsunotos » Sep 23 2010, 10:06

Zenofex wrote:In my opinion Ubi don't know the story of the original M&M world, simply some of their rookies played HoMM III and/or IV and decided that this is it.


They bought NWC, so they had rights to access to the "blue print" / "bible" of HoMM / MM universe. Off course they had already learned and known the story of the original M&M world.
How can you say such thing ?

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Postby Elvin » Sep 23 2010, 10:51

So? That doesn't necessarily mean they understood 3DO's vision or the setting in its entirety. If you can't get into your predecessor's minds you are very likely to mess up and receive criticism for failing to continue the tradition that has already been set.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 23 2010, 17:07

Elvin wrote:So? That doesn't necessarily mean they understood 3DO's vision or the setting in its entirety. If you can't get into your predecessor's minds you are very likely to mess up and receive criticism for failing to continue the tradition that has already been set.


In a sense I support placing the Heroes V world in the far future for that very reason.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 23 2010, 18:35

Elvin wrote:If you can't get into your predecessor's minds you are very likely to mess up and receive criticism for failing to continue the tradition that has already been set.


Better to get criticism for failing to copy the things that made the other tradition you're ripping off enjoyable (Warhammer, with some RA Salvatore society for the DE's).
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Postby Zenofex » Sep 23 2010, 20:23

ecsunotos wrote:They bought NWC, so they had rights to access to the "blue print" / "bible" of HoMM / MM universe. Off course they had already learned and known the story of the original M&M world.
How can you say such thing ?

Ubisoft bought the M&M franchise, not NWC. NWC died along with 3DO.
It is far from necessary to have a in-depth understanding of something that's not your own product and does not hold any kind of santimental value for you, you appraise it mainly as a milch cow. M&M had nothing to do with Ubisoft until HoMM V and I highly doubt that some of the decision-making individuals (those who decided the original setting to be scrapped) had actually played M&M I to M&M IX and HoMM I - IV before saying "Nah, let the old bastards rot, we'll replace them with our own".


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