What's The Worst Faction ?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby Corlagon » Sep 17 2010, 18:45

Avonu wrote:[tirade of corrections]


Yes, I played the game too, I'm aware. I'm not in "uber-pedantic-taking-no-prisoners-must-be-precise-historian-mode" in this thread. :P

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Postby Avonu » Sep 17 2010, 19:13

Corlagon wrote:Yes, I played the game too, I'm aware.


But you posted something else. ;P
It's not about you but about other people who didn't play this game. So don't give them false information, please.

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Postby Corlagon » Sep 17 2010, 19:24

Remember, though - you may not know whether it's true, but that doesn't automatically make it false :devious:

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Postby Zenofex » Sep 17 2010, 20:12

This is more or less addressed in Might and Magic IX

Guilty, haven't played that one. I was overwhelmed with negative reviews of the game back then and ultimately decided to skip it.
Out of curiosity, what is this speculation about Ashan being actually Axeoth? I couldn't find anything that can support these claims in HoMM V, apart from sporadic references to some known names, which could as well be a left-over from some early stage of development, where it was still undecided whether the game universe will be new or they'll stick to the old stuff. Not to mention Ubi's announced rejection of the previous games' world.

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Postby Mirez » Sep 17 2010, 20:37

Markal mentioned sandro in the campaign...
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Postby Tress » Sep 17 2010, 20:41

Markal mentioned sandro in the campaign...

Can be wrong but I think Sandro is actual(now deceased,(as in final death)) character in ubi continuity, though I think it is meant that they share name and it is not meant same sandro we see in homm3,4/mm8.
On the other hand, King's Bounty didn't come with any expectations attached and didn't renege on any promises.

Well there were quite some promises, must say they delivered them though.

I think it's a rational response, and goes beyond simple bashing/trolling.

This was more meant "in general" as people often tend to bash out of pure hatred.
Problem with ubi world isnt setting(that actually have some good ideas), but with directing and character development. For example as one of main examples is fact that they go quite long way to create necromancer faction that would be unlike generic " I will raise few zombies and take over world" necromancer faction, but once established they fill story with same old cliche necromancers like Markel, and as you said it is not untill later they introduce character (Arantir) that actually fits faction profile. Must say Arantir in my eyes is really well formed character and gives me right impression of said faction.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 17 2010, 20:59

Mirez wrote:Markal mentioned sandro in the campaign...


and Isabel mentions Crag Hack... but in a way that makes little sense considering the timeline they gave out for Ashan...
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 17 2010, 22:47

Corlagon wrote:Well, not really - H4 states that the Kreegans who appeared in H3-MM6-MM7 didn't actually reach Axeoth via the Reckoning. They had already fled the world of Enroth after the AB campaigns and only invaded Axeoth when Gauldoth infiltrated their realm and brought a whole horde of them back.


Ummm, not quite. Most of the demons/Kreegans fled to another world, from what I remember from the death campaign (which I have actually never managed to finish, it is very hard) I remember fighting demons quite identical to the other demons in that world in order to rescue Gauldoth's master.

The demons/kreegans are as I remember pretty much enslaved to the necromancers and have to be 'reminded of their place'. But they are not distinct from the kreegans, there is no seperate 'Kreegan' faction.

Corlagon wrote:
Yes, but I already told you that those references to H4 are mistakes left in the game by Nival, relics from early development before there was no decision made on the story, and aren't to be treated as canon. You can encounter the exact same bios in random maps, "fixed" to include Ashan terms like Irollan instead or Aranorn or Heresh instead of Nekross. In other words, you are obliged to consider them expelled from the continuity rather than accepting and trying to make sense of them.


There is not just the bios to back me up. There are references to old heroes like Solymr and Crag Hack and also the lich Sandro has an active role .

It *is* Axeoth, but it is so far in the future that the world has changed a lot and Heroes IV history has become basically a legend and the characters are recalled as such.


Corlagon wrote:No, they are not "demons" in the sense you appear to think (supernatural things like Beelzebub, Lucifer or whatever) according to your old "Demarked Map of Axeoth" thread. I have to advise you to look at the facts from MM3 and MM6-8 instead of inventing your own conjecture on the Kreegans and their backstory.
We know that they have an ecology, it's similar to that of wasps (cf. MM6) and the only strong indication of their origin is that they were created by chaotic entities who oppose the Ancients, but that certainly doesn't imply they're unnatural. In fact, if anything else, you could argue that they are servants of nature, trying to reduce the artifice of the Ancients' empire to the nothingness from whence it came, etc etc.


As frequently happens, the storyline of Heroes OF Might and Magic clashes with Might and Magic. The only way to harmonize the two storylines is sometimes to invent a master storyline that goes over the heads of both, what you dismiss as 'conjecture'.

In Might and Magic the Kreegans may be as you say. But in Heroes of Might and Magic, the Kreegans are supernatural entities. They are able to establish themselves by 'raising a volcano' (the first scenario of Dungeons and Devils mentions this explicitly) and then manifesting themselves into existence in the vicinity of it, they thus appear in the vicinity of lava.

Because Heroes III (or IV or V) demons are not immune to fire, it is clear that their bodies are NOT natural, since else they could not travel through lava to arrive at a place. Their bodies are clearly created or summoned for their demonic spirits to dwell in.

The Kreegans are Devils. Devils like gods tend to be 'made in your own image'.

Everything about the Kreegans, their weapons, their bodies, their organization is a nightmare mirror of the civilization that is their present victim.

If the Might and Magic Kreegans have an ecology like a wasp, that is simply because the last civilization they conquered before moving on to Enroth (or whatever the Heroes III world is called) was organized in a wasp-like fashion, NOT because that is to basic permanent nature of the Kreegans.

Corlagon wrote:That doesn't make sense because the geography, cultures, inhabitants, magic system, origin of necromancy, origin of some creatures and so on in the two worlds are entirely different. I can tell you very unambiguously that it is definitely not the H5/H6 writers' intention to imply that Axeoth = Ashan.


Neither do the references within the game to Heroes IV persons and countries make sense.

http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/he ... line.shtml

This time-line has a basic flaw to it. They have basically no knowledge of ANYTHING that goes on before Sar-Elam becomes enlightened. They don't even know the background of Sar-Elam do they?

The references to the Heroes IV characters are made in a legendary sense. This places the Heroes IV in the far past, before Sar-Elam, that is before their history. In the Ancient Age perhaps when they don't know virtually anything.

The Ancient Age= Heroes IV: Might and Magic IX
The Mythic Age= Heroes III/II/I: Might and Magic VI, VII, VIII,

To dwell upon each problem in turn.

Geography
That's easy because nobody has any complete map of Ashan, nobody knows how the geography differs. I reckon from the description instance that Aldamar= Heresh and Nekross= 'The Burning Lands' (demon-territory).

magic system
Many of the same spells (magic fist, wasp swarm, create illusion) exist in Heroes V as do in Heroes IV. Yes the system is simpler, but also more cosmopolitan, which shows the evidence than an Empire called Ashan (after Asha the god of Order) conquered Axeoth.

Cultures
Do the cultures in Heroes V differ from Heroes III with the notable exception of the Dark Elves.

Origin of necromancy
You are referring to this line.
461 YSD.

Discovery of Necromancy
Belketh, a disciple of Sar-Shazzar, discovers the path of Necromancy. Necromantic experimentations begin in the Seven Cities.


Ah, this is where it gets funny.

74 YSD.

Mysterious Death of Sar-Shazzar
Sar-Shazzar dies in his sleep. When attendants attempt to move his body to the Necropolis for preparation and burial, it crumbles to ashes.


What crumbles to ashes when it dies? A Vampire. Sar-Shazzar *is* a vampire in disguise, Belketh didn't DISCOVER anything, he merely decided the time was right to reveal what his vampiric master had taught him.

Remember that the great Sar-Elam cannot be seen to have a vampire as a follower, nor can he be seen to be a necromancer. Why do you think that Naadir was so keen to aquire an 'unblemished copy of the teachings of the seventh dragon'?

Because the Order faction in Heroes IV was allied with the Death faction and teaches Necromancy. It is an aspect of history that after their schism with the necromancers, the wizards were very keep to suppress.


origin of some creatures


You are reffering to this line.

512 YSD.

Creation of Beast-men
Beast-men (minotaurs, centaurs, harpies…) are created as servants, playthings, and guards in the Seven Cities. Their stated purpose is to replace orcs.


This line is obviously a falsehood as any basic historical criticism would reveal.

If they had the ability to create creatures back then, why have they lost the ability to create even more creatures? Why do they not still have harpies, centaurs and minotaurs serving them? Assuming the centaurs as precedent, that is because they rebelled or ran away.

But if you have the ability to create more of them, then no rebellion could end the presence of say Centaurs in the Silver Cities, because they would simply manufacture a whole new batch to replace them.

A more concrete piece of evidence is that it is only 50 years between the creation of the Minataurs and the dark elves suppression and exile. Assuming that Minataurs immediately escaped, 50 years is too short a time for them to effectively populate the underground realm.

Yet in the 'Defiance' scenario set just after the final exile of the dark elves I am able to recruit Minotaurs as are my enemies with the same ease as in later scenarios. This suggests the overall population has not increased over time, which means that the minotaurs are far older than 50 years.
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Postby Nelgirith » Sep 17 2010, 23:12

Your post makes absolutely no sense

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Postby Corlagon » Sep 17 2010, 23:15

It would be fruitless to counter aspects of your post because there's nothing to debate. Ashan is not Axeoth. They could be in the same universe, and personally I'd like to think they are, but they aren't the same planet. Really. I'm in contact with some of H6's developers. I don't know what else you want me to say.
The references to old heroes are "nods" to the previous HoMM games. They aren't literally to be considered sly hints that Axeoth had a name change.

You have interesting ideas, but I'm afraid they are more or less out of tune with MM continuity.

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Postby theLuckyDragon » Sep 18 2010, 7:55

It *is* Axeoth, but it is so far in the future that the world has changed a lot and Heroes IV history has become basically a legend and the characters are recalled as such.

Well since you placed Ashan SO far in the future, pretty much anything goes explanation-wise... for all we know, Earth was Ashan 1000000000000000000 years ago, when magic still ruled the world, but no records exists of that time ;| It's nice to spot possible connections, but it looks like you're treating even minor syntagms as great clues (e. g. "What crumbles to ashes when it dies? A vampire.").
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Postby Zenofex » Sep 18 2010, 8:24

In Might and Magic the Kreegans may be as you say. But in Heroes of Might and Magic, the Kreegans are supernatural entities. They are able to establish themselves by 'raising a volcano' (the first scenario of Dungeons and Devils mentions this explicitly) and then manifesting themselves into existence in the vicinity of it, they thus appear in the vicinity of lava.

Why do you persist in your attempts to depict the Kreegans as devils, not aliens, is the name so important? Next you will say that Corak and Sheltem are gods, not some sophisticated androids, because they can shape-shift.
Of course when you arrive on a backward planet, look ugly and do unpleasant things, they'll call you a devil. It usually takes much less to receive this "title". And OK, let's accept for the argument's sake that the "true Kreegans" have actually possessed the last society they encountered (the hive-based one) and now (MM VI and VII, HoMM III and IV) use their bodies for militaristic purposes. Does this change anything? This makes them immaterial aliens instead of material ones. The "true Zerg" are not the Hydralisks, Mutalisks, etc., but some microorganisms that mutate certain more or less randomly encountered animals to whatever is necessary for the race's expansion.
It's a fact that the Kreegans from HoMM III and IV lack their sci-fi appearance from the Might & Magic games, but this could be explained with the generally more trivial nature of the HoMM storylines. HoMM I and II are old-fashioned fantasy worlds, so HoMM III had to continue being such. NWC nearly attempted to add the sci-fi elements with the Forge faction, but the reception of the idea speaks for itself - too many people just don't want advanced technology in the HoMM world, no matter the background of the latter. So you keep the "devils" emerging from volcanoes and restrain yourself from talking too much about the fact that they arrived to this world on space-ships. Then the market does not punish you for materializing too much of your imagination. That's it.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 18 2010, 9:56

Actually the introduction letter from the manual clearly implies Lord Ironfist travelled to another planet through a "stargate". And his native planet had a red sun (early Krypton, from before their gene manipulations made them get powers under yellow suns?).
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Postby Avonu » Sep 18 2010, 11:37

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:
Corlagon wrote:Well, not really - H4 states that the Kreegans who appeared in H3-MM6-MM7 didn't actually reach Axeoth via the Reckoning. They had already fled the world of Enroth after the AB campaigns and only invaded Axeoth when Gauldoth infiltrated their realm and brought a whole horde of them back.


Ummm, not quite. Most of the demons/Kreegans fled to another world, from what I remember from the death campaign (which I have actually never managed to finish, it is very hard) I remember fighting demons quite identical to the other demons in that world in order to rescue Gauldoth's master.

Most of the Kreegan died with Lucifer at the end of AB. Few survived but they also were gone as Cathrine Ironfist and Escaton stated in MM8 (few years before Reknoning).
Gauldoth never saw war with Kreegans. He was too busy serving first as vampire food and later his lich master to go outside Deyja.
On a side note - HC and HIV backstory ignored most of MM and even Heroes lore (like Vial of Dragon Blood has blood of Dragon Mother, not Father as is stated in AB) and created there own backstory.

There is not just the bios to back me up. There are references to old heroes like Solymr and Crag Hack and also the lich Sandro has an active role .

These supposedto be more easter eggs then real info. And about Sandro:
1. We have first Sandro in MM5 where he died (or at least said that he do that).
2. Second and the most known Sandro is from H1-IV and MM8. Powerful warlock and lich, disciple of lich Ethric. Hobby: pulling the strings over the throne and world conquering. Last seen in Axeoth.
3. Sandro from Ashan. Truly dead by now. Disciple of Belketh who was disciple of Sar-Shazzar (creator of "eclipse leak" in demon-prison - he was also corrupted by Kha-Beleth). Sandro was master of many necromacers including Markal ad Lucretia. IIRC he was killed by Cyrus in Lorekeep.

While 1st Sandro can be the same lich as the second one, Sando from Ashan IS NOT our loved Sandro from H1-IV.

As frequently happens, the storyline of Heroes OF Might and Magic clashes with Might and Magic. The only way to harmonize the two storylines is sometimes to invent a master storyline that goes over the heads of both, what you dismiss as 'conjecture'.

These clashes started after demise of Forge - earlier MM6 followed story of H2 without plotholes and H3:RoE and AB also followed story of MM7 without ploteholes. In RoE there were events which latery were used in MM7.

In Might and Magic the Kreegans may be as you say. But in Heroes of Might and Magic, the Kreegans are supernatural entities. They are able to establish themselves by 'raising a volcano' (the first scenario of Dungeons and Devils mentions this explicitly) and then manifesting themselves into existence in the vicinity of it, they thus appear in the vicinity of lava.

No they are not. They are one and the same. In MM6 the Kreegan also were changing plains to barren wastes (Blight).
Och, and better don't ask about archangels. You may not survived that. ;P

Because Heroes III (or IV or V) demons are not immune to fire, it is clear that their bodies are NOT natural, since else they could not travel through lava to arrive at a place. Their bodies are clearly created or summoned for their demonic spirits to dwell in.

Ehh... where in Heroes you have any info about what the Kreegan life cycle looks like or what they really are?
This is not Ashan where demons can only survived in human, elven or other hosts.

The Kreegans are Devils. Devils like gods tend to be 'made in your own image'.

How did Escaton say about this? Something like this: "Because they look like the devils from your legends, you called them that. But they are not devils..."

If the Might and Magic Kreegans have an ecology like a wasp, that is simply because the last civilization they conquered before moving on to Enroth (or whatever the Heroes III world is called) was organized in a wasp-like fashion, NOT because that is to basic permanent nature of the Kreegans.

Let's see: Queen to produce new Kreegans, casts of workers, warriors and higher echelon breeds (which were only presented in Hive). Rules under one King but devided into clans...
And they nature is explaned in MM6 - they travelled, they land, and then they conquer. After they used all what they can from one planet, they move to another and repeat the cycle.


This time-line has a basic flaw to it. They have basically no knowledge of ANYTHING that goes on before Sar-Elam becomes enlightened. They don't even know the background of Sar-Elam do they?

The first and mightiest of these Wizards, Sar-Elam, gained such an astounding depth of knowledge, and such an abiding love for the works of Asha, that he ascended into the sphere of the Dragon-Gods, becoming himself the "Seventh Dragon."
There is more info about Sal-Elam and the times before YSD calendar.


The references to the Heroes IV characters are made in a legendary sense. This places the Heroes IV in the far past, before Sar-Elam, that is before their history. In the Ancient Age perhaps when they don't know virtually anything.

Ashan in first drafts was supposed to be Axoeth much time in future. That is what Nival wanted. So they created map of Ashan and few cities bios but later this idea was discarded by Ubisoft and replaced by new universe, new storyline and new mithology. But cities bios stayed (because Nival were too lazy to correct them :P).

The Ancient Age= Heroes IV: Might and Magic IX
The Mythic Age= Heroes III/II/I: Might and Magic VI, VII, VIII,

Mythic Age was BEFORE Ancient Age.
Mythic age - creation and war of primodital dragons.
Ancient Age - elemental dragon worship, first civilization, and war of Angels against Faceless (and all other races).

What crumbles to ashes when it dies? A Vampire. Sar-Shazzar *is* a vampire in disguise, Belketh didn't DISCOVER anything, he merely decided the time was right to reveal what his vampiric master had taught him.

Yeah, because body couldn't be turn to ashed because of old age or using too much magic (or other) energy. Not to mention about Titan thunder which can turn you into ashes in one shot. :P

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 18 2010, 11:44

Corlagon wrote:It would be fruitless to counter aspects of your post because there's nothing to debate. Ashan is not Axeoth. They could be in the same universe, and personally I'd like to think they are, but they aren't the same planet. Really. I'm in contact with some of H6's developers. I don't know what else you want me to say.
The references to old heroes are "nods" to the previous HoMM games. They aren't literally to be considered sly hints that Axeoth had a name change.

You have interesting ideas, but I'm afraid they are more or less out of tune with MM continuity.


Apparently with Heroes VI they have done the same throw away the back-story and start again I hear.

Enlighten me as to the difference between a "nod" and a "sly hint". If they wanted to make it a clear case of 'totally different world, no reference' they could have done so.

Xenofex wrote:Why do you persist in your attempts to depict the Kreegans as devils, not aliens, is the name so important? Next you will say that Corak and Sheltem are gods, not some sophisticated androids, because they can shape-shift.
Of course when you arrive on a backward planet, look ugly and do unpleasant things, they'll call you a devil. It usually takes much less to receive this "title". And OK, let's accept for the argument's sake that the "true Kreegans" have actually possessed the last society they encountered (the hive-based one) and now (MM VI and VII, HoMM III and IV) use their bodies for militaristic purposes. Does this change anything? This makes them immaterial aliens instead of material ones. The "true Zerg" are not the Hydralisks, Mutalisks, etc., but some microorganisms that mutate certain more or less randomly encountered animals to whatever is necessary for the race's expansion.


The name is important because an alien is a mortal creature even if it more advanced and powerful than ourselves. It is it's body and follows natural objectives (expansion, survival), however destructive they may be to others.

A devil is an immortal spirit which only has a body in so far as it serves it's objectives, which are supernatural one's (spreading evil in the world). Obviously, victory in this case conflicts with the ultimate survival of the devils physical form.

But the key thing here is that the Kreegans are not able to manifest just about any form. They are instead spiritually (or to be sci-fi psychically) bound to the planet that they are invading, which limits them to manifest themselves as foes within the grasp of the imaginations of those creatures they are invading.

Their bodies (whether 'alien' or 'demon') are false, as in the sense of the illusion spell in Heroes IV. The same goes for their technology and even the social structure of the illusory bodies.

Xenofex wrote:It's a fact that the Kreegans from HoMM III and IV lack their sci-fi appearance from the Might & Magic games, but this could be explained with the generally more trivial nature of the HoMM storylines. HoMM I and II are old-fashioned fantasy worlds, so HoMM III had to continue being such. NWC nearly attempted to add the sci-fi elements with the Forge faction, but the reception of the idea speaks for itself - too many people just don't want advanced technology in the HoMM world, no matter the background of the latter. So you keep the "devils" emerging from volcanoes and restrain yourself from talking too much about the fact that they arrived to this world on space-ships. Then the market does not punish you for materializing too much of your imagination. That's it.


People don't want advanced technology for a simple reason. Being advanced, it would have to slaughter everyone and everything in it's path. Pit machine guns against medieval soldiers, I think it was tried historically in Africa and allowed those with the machine guns to steal an entire continent.

Any application of sci-fi tech (more advanced than present) in a fantasy game (thus medieval or at best early-modern tech) cannot be done, without making it unrealistically weak (and thus in what sense advanced) or allowing those with the tech to slaughter everyone else.

Heroes of Might and Magic is not trivial. If anything it's Might and Magic, something that involved 1000s of people and entire continents cannot be described as trivial in relation to something that involves 4 people.

I don't understand though why you are so hostile to me using my imagination to work out why the alien Kreegans of Might and Magic would turn into the demonic Kreegans of Heroes?

One cannot claim that Might and Magic is a completely seperate game (as I did once), so it necessary to explain the relationship between the Might and Magic and Heroes of Might and Magic Kreegans. Frankly either come up with a better explanation for the relationship between alien-Kreegans and demon-Kreegans than my own or shut up..
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Postby Nelgirith » Sep 18 2010, 12:45

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Enlighten me as to the difference between a "nod" and a "sly hint". If they wanted to make it a clear case of 'totally different world, no reference' they could have done so.

Repeat after me "EASTER EGG". It's not because there was a panzer and a crashed plane in some H5 maps that it means they existed in Ashan. Sandro, Crag Hack and Solmyr are some emblematic figures from the HoMM universe and it was just a funny tribute and jokes/puns for old players.

Also, one of your arguments for saying that Ashan = Axeoth is that they use the same spell system and the same spell names. And then ? It's still a HoMM game, they won't change everything just because they decided to get into a new universe. Same goes with the factions. They've taken inspiration from the old Heroes but that's it.


Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Any application of sci-fi tech (more advanced than present) in a fantasy game (thus medieval or at best early-modern tech) cannot be done, without making it unrealistically weak (and thus in what sense advanced) or allowing those with the tech to slaughter everyone else.

Except that it's not in everyone's taste. Personally, I hate it. I don't mind some early technology like canons or muskets appearing in a medieval fantasy universe, but blasters are just stupid. While I acknowledge that some people can like this and others might not even care about, for me it has been a funkiller in the MM6/7 games - you know like those super movies that keep you entertained for nearly 2 hours and then have the world stupidest end which wastes everything.

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Postby Corlagon » Sep 18 2010, 13:17

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Apparently with Heroes VI they have done the same throw away the back-story and start again I hear.


I don't know who told you that, but they're incorrect. Heroes VI is still in Ashan and hasn't thrown away its own backstory.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:One cannot claim that Might and Magic is a completely seperate game (as I did once), so it necessary to explain the relationship between the Might and Magic and Heroes of Might and Magic Kreegans. Frankly either come up with a better explanation for the relationship between alien-Kreegans and demon-Kreegans than my own or shut up..


Your rationale doesn't make much sense because it's taking one liberty too many.
You seem to insist that Kreegans absolutely must be supernatural entities, but your only backup is the fact that they decided to set up a base in a volcano in A Devilish Plan. If there is a piece of text in Heroes III or any Might and Magic game that states the Kreegans of the Inferno are distinct from their MM counterparts, have "false bodies" and are "spiritually bound to the planet", go ahead, post it here. But that seems way more like a description of the Ashan Demons than anything else.

Let me quote the Heroes III scenario writer, Greg Fulton:

Greg Fulton wrote:Science fiction is the foundation of the Might and Magic universe. It is the reason the Might and Magic universe exists. At its core, the Might and Magic is about advanced civilizations who have descend into barbarism. If you disagree, your reasoning is emotional, not logical. Many people forget the Inferno is not populated by demons. It's populated by aliens who look like demons. If I told you the origin of the Arch Angels I'm sure many of you would have a heart attack.


I very strongly suspect you haven't played MM6 or MM8 yet. I must advise you to do so. There are NPCs in those games who explain the backstory and ecology of the Kreegans that you've apparently missed out on (and they heavily reference the Kreegan genocides during H3, so there is no ambiguity whether or not they are one and the same race).
I don't mean to offend, but before screaming that "There Is A Very Big Contradiction In The Lore, I Must Mend It With Fan Fiction!!!" at the top of your voice, it's always worth developing a rudimentary understanding of the lore to begin with.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 18 2010, 13:21

Nelgirith wrote:Repeat after me "EASTER EGG". It's not because there was a panzer and a crashed plane in some H5 maps that it means they existed in Ashan. Sandro, Crag Hack and Solmyr are some emblematic figures from the HoMM universe and it was just a funny tribute and jokes/puns for old players.

Also, one of your arguments for saying that Ashan = Axeoth is that they use the same spell system and the same spell names. And then ? It's still a HoMM game, they won't change everything just because they decided to get into a new universe. Same goes with the factions. They've taken inspiration from the old Heroes but that's it.


Yeah; along with a small heap of town bios, are those Easter-eggs. And Sandro has a pretty major role in the back-story, is that Easter-eggs.

There is a small heap of evidence that Ashan was once Axeoth. Since the Ashan people's 'official' history apparently doesn't extend beyond Sar-Elams ascending to godhood and the town bios provide evidence of events (like a great plague) which presumably happened between Heroes IV and Heroes V.

And there are even clues within that history that all is not quite accurate..... Like the mysterious set of 'coincidences' revolving around Sar-Shezzar.

d.
74 YSD.

Mysterious Death of Sar-Shazzar
Sar-Shazzar dies in his sleep. When attendants attempt to move his body to the Necropolis for preparation and burial, it crumbles to ashes.

461 YSD.

Discovery of Necromancy
Belketh, a disciple of Sar-Shazzar, discovers the path of Necromancy. Necromantic experimentations begin in the Seven Cities.


The person who discovers necromancy just happens to be disciple of a person who crumbled into ashes (like a vampire) on his death. A small coincidence indeed. Especially given that it is specifically marked as being "relevant to the necropolis faction".
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.



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Postby Avonu » Sep 18 2010, 13:26

Here you go something to read before you speak about Necromacers in Ashan:

Jeff Spock, Writer, and Erwan Le Breton, World Coordinator wrote:"Life is chaos, filth and suffering. Death is peace, order, everlasting beauty."

Just what is a Necromancer? Where did they come from? What are their needs, their aspirations? Is there an order among the ranks of the undead?

Let us begin at the traditional place...

While the beginnings of many things are lost in the mists of time -- or at least misfiled upon the shelves of time -- the Necromancers of Heresh have a recorded history that has been well-documented.

Ahhh, documents! Timeless, ageless records that permit the wisdom and experiences of a people to be archived and managed, perused and discussed, as timeless and unchanging as Death itself... Necromancers without lore, Necromancers without a history, is a notion that is fundamentally impossible. For Necromancers are to a soul (which, yes, they do have) thinkers, philosophers, and seekers of wisdom and understanding. Their biggest problem, of course, is deciding when to end a debate; debates can go on forever when the debaters are deathless.

But on to the specifics.

As with many things that concern magic, necromancy began as part of the legacy of Sar-Elam, the great wizard who became the Seventh Dragon. His most gifted disciple was Sar-Shazzar, who went on to carve his own place in history.

Sar-Shazzar himself had a talented student, named Belketh.

In an age when the world was young and vibrant and much of magic was in doing, building, and experimenting, Belketh was a thinker and philosopher. Fascinated with the principles and passages of death -- must we all? do we all? where does the soul go? what exactly ends with death, and what begins? -- Belketh turned less and less to the teachings of his master and more and more to his own reflections and investigations.

At a critical moment he uncovered an ancient manuscript; it was a part of the writings of Sar-Elam collectively known as the Revelations of the Seventh Dragon. This particular chapter spoke of Necromancy, the power of the immortal soul, and the aspect of Asha that was least-known and least-worshipped.

Belketh was struck by the conviction that this countenance of Asha, though it was least understood and most feared, was all-embracing and all-encompassing.

For Asha, the goddess who created the world that bears her name, is all facets of the wheel of existence; the triple-faced figure of birth, life and death.
She is the Faceless Maiden, Destiny's herald, stitching here and there, unseen, to make sure that all the living creatures fulfil their purpose.
She is the Mother, who regards all things as her creation and her children. By giving birth, she set chaos into form and gives meaning to potential.
She is the Crone, wizened and old, who snips the web of life, with a sickle held in gnarled fingers, when the time has come.

The fateful text of the Revelations that Belketh read referred to this third image of Asha as the most powerful, holding sway over the works of the other two. From the rituals and the insights in this document Belketh gleaned two elements that would influence the development of the Necromancers.
One was the image of Asha as a spider, spinning the web of life, administering death through her mandibles when one's allotted time was up.
The other was the temptation of the alternative to life; death was not an end, merely a transformation. The petty desires and needs of the flesh, the destructive passions of the heart, the unreasoning decisions of the brain that piloted this mass of humours and conflicts -- death was the answer to all of that, the reduction of existence to its purest and most changeless form.

All agree that this fragment of the original text is at the origin of the Necromantic Kingdom of Heresh. After this point of agreement, however, all else diverges. On one side are the Necromancers, convinced that this fragment is the core and the essence of the teachings of Asha, and that the rest are dead ends, half-truths, and traps for the gullible and unwary. The other side of the argument, obviously, is that this fragment is necessarily only a part of a greater truth, and that in their dedication to this subset of Her teachings the Necromancers have missed much of Asha's message.

Feel free to debate this with a Necromancer some time, if you have a few decades to spare.

From this point of origin the Necromancers have built a culture and a structure of beliefs, founding a nation that has upon occasion wielded a terrible might.

The Hierarchy of Heresh

To become a lord of the Necromancers is the ideal of all who have chosen this path, though there are many other forms of unlife that have relatively more or less importance. In fact a Necromancer is not necessarily one of the non-living; in particular those who go on embassies to foreign lands are often still in human form. As they gain power, however, they inevitably choose to pass through the portal of death, becoming one of the undead. Little is known of this rite of passage to outsiders, as it involves the bite of the sacred spiders, the Namtaru, who dwell in the catacombs deep beneath the capital of Nar-Heresh.

Those who make this passage first become Asakkus, or "Liches", their bodies desiccated but intact, freed from the passions of the flesh to meditate undistracted.
As the decades pass, and they grow in power, they may earn the right to become Akhkharus, or "Vampires". For a Vampire is the most potent incarnation of a once-human form, one of the unliving lords of Heresh who hold sway over both the dead and undead.
Once a Lich ascends to take the form of a Vampire he ages backwards. The longer a Necromancer is undead, the younger and healthier he looks. The ruling council of the Lords of Heresh all appear to be in their mid-twenties, beautiful and unchanging.

Rabisus, or "Ghouls", on the other hand, are distinctly lesser undead. Formed when a Necromancer forces a soul to remain in a dead body, they are trapped between life and death. They are tormented; filled with hatred for the living. Powerful Necromancers can control them, but otherwise they are wild and destructive. Transformation into a ghoul is used as the ultimate punishment in Heresh, and is a means of permanently removing a soul from the cycle of death and transformation.

Zombies and skeletons are the least potent, mere soulless bodies re-animated by death magic. They shamble about following orders, and even the lowliest Necromancer can command them with absolute authority.

Edimmus (ghosts, spectres and wraiths), finally, are disembodied spirits of the dead. They can be trapped, geased, and commanded by sufficiently powerful Necromancers, though in Heresh they are more often used as scouts and allies. Ghosts can barter their services for favors done for their descendants, for deeds done among the living, or for aid in returning to a body -- living or not -- and entering once more into Asha's great cycle.

Those wishing to further study the lore of the Necromancers and the history of Heresh are invited to peruse one of the great libraries of the Silver Cities, perhaps one of those in Qays or Fidaa. The eager student may even travel to Heresh to learn from the source, though those who do so seem, upon their return, to be somewhat altered...

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 18 2010, 13:49

Avonu wrote:Here you go something to read before you speak about Necromacers in Ashan:


Thanks Avonu, what is the source of this article.

If Sar-Elam were an Order mage from Heroes IV, then that would explain why Necromancy would be part of his teachings and that of his disciples, but not exclusively.

Because in Heroes IV the Order faction is allied to the death faction and teaches necromancy in it's cities.

But given that eventually the wizards (and everyone else) were to turn against the necromancers, it is quite plausible that the idea that necromancy has a recent origin is a sort of historical whitewashing, all the other factions would rather believe necromancy began with Belketh rather than consider the idea that it is part of the heritage of Sar-Elam and also thus inculcating Sar-Shezzar (the wizards own founder) in the bargain.

It is as I said, that the wizards of Ashan have destroyed much their history and the memory of what connects them to Heroes IV out of shame that they practiced necromancy in those days.
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.



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