What's The Worst Faction ?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby Pitsu » Sep 15 2010, 14:22

But they could have kept the lore minimal and create a game placed in unknown world, evolved around some weird personalities or cult and not tried to be a theory of everything. Even more, NWC lore was not very strict and well defined in all aspects and even now Ashan could be described as a test tube experiment. Having a few oddities in details would probably not have been big problem. Even even more, the "chosen fans" group goes back to times before H5 announcement (year before release?). They could have corrected major flaws in the plot.
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Postby Zenofex » Sep 15 2010, 15:12

People, I think you are daydreaming. It will be VERY nice to have the old M&M storyline back, it's several thousand times better than the current excuse for "a new world", but Ubisoft really seem to have abandoned the Ancients and the Kreegans for good. Reason? Twisted perception of marketing in my opinion. Or they could just be lazy. In any case, I think we'll have to live with Ashan as it is.

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Postby Tress » Sep 15 2010, 15:19

They didn't really need to understand it, did they, all they had to do is play some H4 and continue that... .

Actually does UBI in any interview ever commented on reason and their decision to change continuity, and start their own? Kinda odd that its almost never asked in any interview.

Ubi seem interested in jumping between time periods rather than conveying a continuous story arc. I guess they could very easily done that with H5 either way - set it in Axeoth's far future - but then there would've been absolutely no justification for including dragon gods or Fabrice's Dark Elves. :P


Dont think such trivial matter would prevent from forming dark elf faction if they would wish it as they are biologically same elves.Just tell us they split off from regular Elvin governed elves. And considering that elven culture in NWC continuity is vague at best they could twist as they wish. They seem to be based partially on D&D moon/silver elves, but that's about it.

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Postby Corlagon » Sep 15 2010, 16:02

Pitsu wrote:Even more, NWC lore was not very strict and well defined in all aspects and even now Ashan could be described as a test tube experiment


I know for a fact that NWC did have a world bible which was used extensively where appropriate (so they were not necessarily working blindly and making things up as they went along).

Pitsu wrote:Even even more, the "chosen fans" group goes back to times before H5 announcement (year before release?). They could have corrected major flaws in the plot.


Check every second post I've made on this forum and you'll see that I think the same way, but AFAIK the H5 chosen fans group was established only after the closed beta was released, way too late for severe changes. I think there was still ambiguity on storyline/setting when Fabrice contacted Heroic Corner, but for whatever reason they didn't take all the "please don't kill the old universe" feedback into account.
The Ashan decision had been made sometime in 2005/early 2006 and the H5 story outline was prepared before any of the betas began. Even Ubi's current lead storywriter didn't have a say in it when he was hired on.

I'm not happy with the world H5 introduced, but there are many reasons why it was so badly delivered in that game, and the series is stuck with it now and must make the best of it in some way or another. I don't think anyone wants the old universe back as much as I do, but I can tell you they're very conscious that Ashan was a rather crappy setting in its H5 incarnation and seem serious about rectifying their mistakes.

tress wrote:Actually does UBI in any interview ever commented on reason and their decision to change continuity, and start their own? Kinda odd that its almost never asked in any interview.


Probably because it was covered in the very first developer diary they put out. The hint that they couldn't get a firm grip on the lore is clear enough where they state that it was "flat-out-confusing" and name the setting of H1-3 as Axeoth instead of Enroth (also claiming that Axeoth was full of "gentle light-hearted fantasy" - they clearly did not take the time to play Gauldoth's campaign, which is far, far "darker", more mature and well-written than anything in H5).

tress wrote:And considering that elven culture in NWC continuity is vague at best they could twist as they wish. They seem to be based partially on D&D moon/silver elves, but that's about it.


Well, the NWC elf history has some pretty pivotal events. To paraphrase: space-shipped to Enroth, established Vori, schism led to creation of AvLee and Alvar, Reckoning destroys world, the three old cultures fuse and Aranorn is created.

It would've been very very easy for H5 to seriously screw this established backstory up if there had been mention of some god or earth dragon conjuring up Axeoth's Elves from nothing, or whatever.

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Postby Pitsu » Sep 15 2010, 18:09

Corlagon wrote:I know for a fact that NWC did have a world bible which was used extensively where appropriate (so they were not necessarily working blindly and making things up as they went along).


And they hid it from Ubisoft? Anyway, I think the problem was not that Ubi developers could not understand the original multiverse, but that they were afraid to learn it. Like some people give up on a problem, before they even try to solve it. They did have access to everything that fans have access to, plus the knowledge of fans.
OK, what has happend, has happend. Just hope that they indeed are trying to make the world better.


It would've been very very easy for H5 to seriously screw this established backstory up if there had been mention of some god or earth dragon conjuring up Axeoth's Elves from nothing, or whatever.


The dark elves came to Axeoth in a big black flying thing, which wings covered the sky and which fires burned half of the land. They are another enemy of the Ancients. Unlike kreegans who want to conquer every world, these being were called gothemos and their goal was to bring more sex and violence into videogames of every world. It did not matter that some worlds (like Axeoth) did not even know what a videogame is.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 15 2010, 19:20

Pitsu, you win an internet.


Corlagon wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:They didn't really need to understand it, did they, all they had to do is play some H4 and continue that...


Not really as easy as you suggest, because there's a lot of fine details throughout the series which they might've butchered with contradictions and errors if they only paid attention to and built on H4's storyline, hypothetically leading to at least as many complaints as the "reboot" generated.

For instance, in the original continuity, it would be infeasible to create a long-winded new backstory for the Inferno faction or include them in prequels, since Escaton would've blown the planet up due to the Kreegan presence. And you couldn't go off and create lore explaining the origin and history of the Elves or Humans, because it's already established that they were sent to Enroth on "(space)ships of light". But you don't learn any of that just by playing H4. et cetera.


The point was that they didn't need to create any new backstory... they would just continue the story from where H4 left off with no need to mention anyone's origin from before the events of H4. They could even have had Dark Elves by having some Nature elves turn to Chaos for whatever reason...

And no need for a prequel because some half-demon brat might have blown up half the world.
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Postby ecsunotos » Sep 17 2010, 1:08

In H4, we can mentioned that the worst faction, definitely, was Necro Inferno faction. Developer forced them self trying to blend those two factions to become one just to fit the magic system.
There were five magics but there were used to be six factions, how can they fit those two conditions ? Simply just blended those two faction into one faction. But they blended them roughly.
Yup, definitely the worst faction in HoMM universe. I'm pretty sure Ubi wont do that silly thing in the future

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 17 2010, 9:46

No matter how they did it the devils and undead wouldn't have fitted together.

Frankly it would have been better if they just skipped over the demons all together. Maybe put them in an expansion as another might town.

or instead of each town having 1 magic type they would have made them have a combination of 2.
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Postby Mirez » Sep 17 2010, 10:13

I would not have mind not seeing a demon faction at all to be honest. You'd just have to fight demons as boss battles or neutrals
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Postby Zenofex » Sep 17 2010, 12:02

Frankly, the Kreegans' presence on Axeoth wasn't exactly logical, even though they were brought there from some "fiery realm". The portals leading to it are clearly of Ancients' design, so the planet should have had some defensive mechanism against the appearance of the arch-rivals, like on Colony. But they were there, that's it. In the past, I mean.
The current Inferno faction is much worse than even the weird Necro-Kreegan alliance from HoMM IV - now we have hopelessly trivial demons, trying to break free from the same old boring prison realm and do something nasty afterward. Their agenda is brainless destruction and basically that's all that can be said about them. Inspired, mysterious and amusing as much as a brick.

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Postby Tress » Sep 17 2010, 12:44

The current Inferno faction is much worse than even the weird Necro-Kreegan alliance...


That's why they are called demons, not aliens from outer space. Personally I prefer classical demon concept in fantasy setting, rather than some star trek/stargate sort. In fact in homm3 there isnt much to even suggest them as aliens.
Dont see anyone bashing new King bounty although that's as generic universe as generic universe can get. Generic demons, elves.. and so on. Is there some sickness everyone have that forces them to bash homm5? Course its not original universe or whatever, but so is dozens of others that are positively viewed.

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Postby Nelgirith » Sep 17 2010, 14:20

Zenofex wrote:The current Inferno faction is much worse than even the weird Necro-Kreegan alliance from HoMM IV - now we have hopelessly trivial demons, trying to break free from the same old boring prison realm and do something nasty afterward. Their agenda is brainless destruction and basically that's all that can be said about them. Inspired, mysterious and amusing as much as a brick.

What else do you expect the bad guys to be doing ? Playing cards ? Baking pies ? Flirting with faeries ? Picking flowers ?

Urgash only wants one thing : destroy everything Asha has created and that's what his demons are doing. Demons do not think, they just kill and burn everything. They're not much different from Tolkien's black orcs, Warhammer 40k's Tyrannides, Warhammer's Chaos faction or .... for that matter, the Kreegans. Kreegans had only one objective, destroying anything the Ancients built.

Tbh, I prefer the bad guys to just be bad rather than having some pathetic philosophical melodrama - like the kind of stupidity Blizzard put in Starcraft 2 about the Zergs or simply stupid stories a la Agrael/Raelag.

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Postby Tress » Sep 17 2010, 14:38

Tbh, I prefer the bad guys to just be bad rather than having some pathetic philosophical melodrama - like the kind of stupidity Blizzard put in Starcraft 2 about the Zergs or simply stupid stories a la Agrael/Raelag.


Well would disagree about that. Infested Kerrigan is just pure evil in contrast of any other villain, there is no redeeming qualities in her. Only difference is that she is necessary player.

About demons, they are evil in any fiction. In D&D setting for example demons are chaotic just for sake of it. Devils are bit different and more rational story, but demons are demons.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 17 2010, 14:48

ecsunotos wrote:Aaaahh... this is interesting. Looks like our friend has already have strategies to play whole factions in HoMM V correctly ( or at least more than half of the towns :D ). This is quiet important since ability to play each faction effectively will take influence to "decission" whether we like or dislike it.

You should share the general strategy how to play each faction effectively than, brother B-)


The strategy for every faction is very simple. Focus on getting the nastiest unit you can and then use them to strengthen you to get more resources and even nastiest units (that are very expensive).

For Inferno the whole strategy works around Succubus Mistresses. Once you've got them early, then you've got a lot of them. They totally destroy most armies in any kind of numbers because to shoot at them, is to get shot. The reverse isn't the case.


Corlagon wrote:Ubi seem interested in jumping between time periods rather than conveying a continuous story arc. I guess they could've very easily done that with H5 either way - set it in Axeoth's far future - but then there would've been absolutely no justification for including dragon gods or Fabrice's Dark Elves. :P

Despite what I used to wish, I think that - provided H6 has a good storyline - the worst thing they could do at this point is deliberately choose to ignore all aspects of, and sever all ties to, the original continuity. They have a strong opportunity to reconcile the "universes" and shouldn't waste it.


That the gods are dragons is merely an article of theology; if one that the dragons are happy to go along with (because it means that if they eat a few sheep or even people they are less likely to be hunted down).

The dark elves are the result of a politics which is based upon a continuity with Heroes IV.

At the end of the Nature Campaign, Elwin gets made King of Aranorn by the Elder Council. The King is of Aranorn is probably a constitutional monarch so to speak and not even hereditery. As it says.

528 YSD.

Tuidhana's Secession
His head turned by a band of flatterers, the third Elf king, Arniel decided that elvish power was too decentralized, and the method of choosing a High King too random. Instead, central power was needed to go with a hereditary monarchy. While many objected to this, only Tuidhana, Queen of a tiny realm which sat on the border with the Falcon Empire, chose to act and declared her independence.


Read the town description of the starting town of Finden in the Elf campaign of original Heroes V. In it you will find that the dark elves originated within Aranorn and that town was originally a 'dark elf' town.


tress wrote:That's why they are called demons, not aliens from outer space. Personally I prefer classical demon concept in fantasy setting, rather than some star trek/stargate sort. In fact in homm3 there isnt much to even suggest them as aliens.
Dont see anyone bashing new King bounty although that's as generic universe as generic universe can get. Generic demons, elves.. and so on. Is there some sickness everyone have that forces them to bash homm5? Course its not original universe or whatever, but so is dozens of others that are positively viewed.


It is not stated that the Kreegans are aliens. It says they come from space, but they *are* demons not natural beings.

As demons they take shape according to the fears and beliefs of those they attempt to conquer. Problem solved.

In origin Kreegans are alien (they come from another world) but they are 'demons' not 'aliens'. It's just that immediately upon their arrival they were geared to the nightmares of an alien world and thus were alien demons, but they quickly lost their alienness.
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Postby Tress » Sep 17 2010, 14:54

In origin Kreegans are alien (they come from another world) but they are 'demons' not 'aliens'. It's just that immediately upon their arrival they were geared to the nightmares of an alien world and thus were alien demons, but they quickly lost their alienness.


Ye demons, with blasters in chests, fission reactor in zerg like hive, and "aliens" style queen. As they are portrayed in mm6-7 they are clearly stargate style aliens. Ofc in homm parts they use demonic symbolism and look quite different, but as far m&m series they doesn't seem to be demons in classical sense.
Read the town description of the starting town of Finden in the Elf campaign of original Heroes V


Most town bios are seemingly written under heavy intoxication, as large part of them refers to the NWC continuity that pretty much doesn't make sense. It seem that ubi quality check ignored town bios, but to tell truth unlike hero bios I somehow never bother them to read much. Towns are simply too unpersonalized imo to need bio.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 17 2010, 15:15

tress wrote:Most town bios are seemingly written under heavy intoxication, as large part of them refers to the NWC continuity that pretty much doesn't make sense. It seem that ubi quality check ignored town bios, but to tell truth unlike hero bios I somehow never bother them to read much. Towns are simply too unpersonalized imo to need bio.


I love reading the bios of the towns. The continuity is also referred to in the Heroes V campaign story too.

The continuity doesn't make sense, so one has to figure out how it does.

I reckon for instance the demons destroyed the Necromancer faction of Heroes IV forcing them to seek shelter with the wizards (the Order faction of Heroes IV practices necromancy), the Order faction conquered Axeoth (does Mysterio the Magnificant have something to do with it?) and renamed it ASHAn (after the god of Order).

And finally the dwarves rebelled against the Order/Wizard faction and destroyed the whole empire before being forced underground.
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Postby Corlagon » Sep 17 2010, 16:08

Zenofex wrote:Frankly, the Kreegans' presence on Axeoth wasn't exactly logical, even though they were brought there from some "fiery realm". The portals leading to it are clearly of Ancients' design, so the planet should have had some defensive mechanism against the appearance of the arch-rivals, like on Colony. But they were there, that's it. In the past, I mean.


Well, not really - H4 states that the Kreegans who appeared in H3-MM6-MM7 didn't actually reach Axeoth via the Reckoning. They had already fled the world of Enroth after the AB campaigns and only invaded Axeoth when Gauldoth infiltrated their realm and brought a whole horde of them back.

Nelgrith wrote:Urgash only wants one thing : destroy everything Asha has created and that's what his demons are doing. Demons do not think, they just kill and burn everything. They're not much different from Tolkien's black orcs, Warhammer 40k's Tyrannides, Warhammer's Chaos faction or .... for that matter, the Kreegans. Kreegans had only one objective, destroying anything the Ancients built.


Kreegans wanted to bring down the Ancients but certainly weren't always portrayed as your generic demon bad guys. Look at Suraze in H4, he willingly helps to save a planet that isn't even his from a malevolent force. True, it's a bit of an Enemy Mine situation, but regardless.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Read the town description of the starting town of Finden in the Elf campaign of original Heroes V. In it you will find that the dark elves originated within Aranorn and that town was originally a 'dark elf' town.


Yes, but I already told you that those references to H4 are mistakes left in the game by Nival, relics from early development before there was no decision made on the story, and aren't to be treated as canon. You can encounter the exact same bios in random maps, "fixed" to include Ashan terms like Irollan instead or Aranorn or Heresh instead of Nekross. In other words, you are obliged to consider them expelled from the continuity rather than accepting and trying to make sense of them.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It is not stated that the Kreegans are aliens. It says they come from space, but they *are* demons not natural beings.

As demons they take shape according to the fears and beliefs of those they attempt to conquer. Problem solved.

In origin Kreegans are alien (they come from another world) but they are 'demons' not 'aliens'. It's just that immediately upon their arrival they were geared to the nightmares of an alien world and thus were alien demons, but they quickly lost their alienness.


No, they are not "demons" in the sense you appear to think (supernatural things like Beelzebub, Lucifer or whatever) according to your old "Demarked Map of Axeoth" thread. I have to advise you to look at the facts from MM3 and MM6-8 instead of inventing your own conjecture on the Kreegans and their backstory.
We know that they have an ecology, it's similar to that of wasps (cf. MM6) and the only strong indication of their origin is that they were created by chaotic entities who oppose the Ancients, but that certainly doesn't imply they're unnatural. In fact, if anything else, you could argue that they are servants of nature, trying to reduce the artifice of the Ancients' empire to the nothingness from whence it came, etc etc.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:I reckon for instance the demons destroyed the Necromancer faction of Heroes IV forcing them to seek shelter with the wizards (the Order faction of Heroes IV practices necromancy), the Order faction conquered Axeoth (does Mysterio the Magnificant have something to do with it?) and renamed it ASHAn (after the god of Order).


That doesn't make sense because the geography, cultures, inhabitants, magic system, origin of necromancy, origin of some creatures and so on in the two worlds are entirely different. I can tell you very unambiguously that it is definitely not the H5/H6 writers' intention to imply that Axeoth = Ashan.

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Postby Zenofex » Sep 17 2010, 16:41

Dont see anyone bashing new King bounty although that's as generic universe as generic universe can get. Generic demons, elves.. and so on.

Come on, King's Bounty is a fairy tale about heroic deeds, damsels in distress, princess and princesses - i.e. it's not pretending to be serious at all. It's just a fun fantasy world - and a very well-designed one, generic or not. The atmosphere is of a story that your grandmother reads you in an idyllic cottage in an idyllic village in an idyllic evening and after that you will have idyllic dreams. You just don't search for depth in such a thing, the depth is not needed for a good experience. Not to mention that King's Bounty does have some not-so-generic details in its world design.

What else do you expect the bad guys to be doing ? Playing cards ? Baking pies ? Flirting with faeries ? Picking flowers ?

I don't expect them to be simplified versions of school bullies at least. In every low quality fictional world the evil is something that even your regular village idiot can comprehend easily. It comes, it kills as many as it can and ultimately is being destroyed by the combined efforts of the good and the relatively good guys. When I started the HoMM V campaign, I knew what will have to be fought in the end and that it WILL be defeated. Please! And have you ever wondered what happens when, eventually, the bad guys kill and destroy everything? What will they do then? Kill each other out of boredom?
What I want is some more complex motivation behind all the carnage. And some believable goals for the "dark side" factions, Inferno in particular. And some characters that do more than laughing maniacally, talking about hedonistic pleasure and painful death and roaring to scare the ladies from the opposing factions. It's not hard at all.
As for the Kreegans - in HoMM III and IV they are not portrayed as the most original villains, true, but if you are aware of they back-story, they become much more interesting. Their aim does not seem to be to destroy the Ancient's creations, but is much more... biological. They are described as rapidly reproducing species that exhaust the natural resources of each planet very quickly and then get on their ships and invade another one/couple/system/etc. It seems the Ancients just got on their way. The rest is history.

Edit: @Corlagon, yes, the Kreegans come to Axeoth not from Colony. What I mean is that Axeoth normally should have had some defense, just like Colony, to protect it from Kreegans, Sheltems, etc. This doesn't seem to be the case.

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Postby Corlagon » Sep 17 2010, 16:56

Zenofex wrote:Edit: @Corlagon, yes, the Kreegans come to Axeoth not from Colony. What I mean is that Axeoth normally should have had some defense, just like Colony, to protect it from Kreegans, Sheltems, etc. This doesn't seem to be the case.


This is more or less addressed in Might and Magic IX. The Kreegans battled the Ancients on Axeoth and were defeated, and the Ancients left behind a Guardian named Verhoffin to defend the world in case history repeated itself. Verhoffin was somehow driven nuts and self-destructed in apocalyptic fashion, blowing up part of the continent of Rysh and leaving Axeoth practically defenceless against invasion.

tress wrote:Dont see anyone bashing new King bounty although that's as generic universe as generic universe can get. Generic demons, elves.. and so on. Is there some sickness everyone have that forces them to bash homm5? Course its not original universe or whatever, but so is dozens of others that are positively viewed.


I think it's a rational response, and goes beyond simple bashing/trolling. In my own case, I've certainly never had anything personal against Ubi or a specific preference toward NWC's storytelling. I just approve of a strong plot no matter who came up with it. But you see, that designer diary I linked you promised that Ashan would unequivocally be a "darker, grittier, more mature setting" far superior to Enroth, Axeoth, et al. In H5 it was portrayed laughably and in no way surpassed the storytelling/setting of its predecessor, ripping many story elements from H3 to boot; only after the TotE expansion could one even begin to make an argument in its favour. I think it might just have all the potential that was mentioned, and I hope this will be proven true with H6, but it definitely didn't exhibit any of it in the original H5.
On the other hand, King's Bounty didn't come with any expectations attached and didn't renege on any promises.

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Postby Avonu » Sep 17 2010, 18:08

Corlagon wrote:This is more or less addressed in Might and Magic IX. The Kreegans battled the Ancients on Axeoth and were defeated, and the Ancients left behind a Guardian named Verhoffin to defend the world in case history repeated itself. Verhoffin was somehow driven nuts and self-destructed in apocalyptic fashion, blowing up part of the continent of Rysh and leaving Axeoth practically defenceless against invasion.

1. There is no proof that Verhoffin was a Guardian. They are only small clues that he COULD be it.
2. Verhoffin gone missing after he cast his spell but there are rumours that he is still alive (other rumours says that his ghost haunt his tower).
3. Ancients indeed left behind some defense against the Kreegan if they would even return:
...he saw th strange creatures arrive at place he said was several hundreds leagues south of Verhoffin's supossed sovereign tower. While they were there, they constructed an enormous building with a giant stick that the pointed to the sky. He overheard them tell the person in charge of that province, that when time came to look to the sky, he would know what to do with it.

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