What's The Worst Faction ?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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ecsunotos
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Postby ecsunotos » Sep 13 2010, 22:02

Zenofex wrote:This hate\love thing is childish, I really hope no dev is that lay to be affected by some bias - being his own or some target auditory's. I for instance hate elves - they are bloody everywhere and are bloody monotonous. Now make the elvish factions so weak that they get torn apart by every other race. Nice, no? Well, actually no indeed. I want the factions I don't like to be able to put a fight against me, not just to stay there and wait to be massacred, but I also want the factions I like to be powerful enough to be able to take out someone, who can put a fight himself. In short - they should all be balanced. THAT's nice.


It's not childish actually. How if developer can bring a nice game for you ? Which is whole factions are your favourite. So you enjoy playing every one of them. Each of them fulfils every single criteria you want : well balanced, interesting units lines up, nice city atmosphere, etc. Sounds nice, doesn't it ?
That this thread is for. To find a formula so that developer won't bring wrong / boring concept for each faction. So that we can get interesting factions to play.
Ok, We have to admit that no formula fits every body. There won't be HoMM game that whole factions satisfy every body. But I think we can still try to figure out a global / grand idea of what's interesting / boring factions are.
Every one stay with this idea ? B-)

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Postby Zenofex » Sep 13 2010, 23:04

You misunderstand me, I'm not saying that the thread is pointless, on the contrary. The childish part is "My mommy says that I should not play with Inferno, because they are bad" or "Sylvan are gayish losers - let them burn!". Everybody likes or dislikes something, the question is to what extent the factions are well-made overall.
Like I said, I'm really fed up with elves and orcs in games taking place in fantasy worlds. Tolkien's dead damn it, the world's mythologies are overloaded with interesting creatures and most importantly - with a little imagination, you can create whatever race you want. But at the same time there are people who like the new, dark-elf-infested Dungeon much more than the previous variegated (and much better IMO) version. Just an example. Ashan itself is so mediocre that it can't stand much improvement. You have conveyer bad demons, conveyer good wood elves, conveyer neutral-to-good humans, etc. and on top of all the manifacture stand some doped-up dragons - you have to re-write almost the whole lore to bring some hope for conceptually interesting factions.
Given the circumstances, a good faction for me will be one that has interesting, diverse creatures and its own "character" - unique and flexible battlefield behaviour, heroes with personalities (Sandro, anyone?), catchy town music and so on. Thus a bad one will be with HoMM V Fortress-like line-up, standard tactics, boring heroes, uninspired music, etc.
Last edited by Zenofex on Sep 14 2010, 9:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Nelgirith » Sep 14 2010, 7:35

I think there are 3 kind of factions people hate :
- factions that don't fit their likings and that can range from Dark Elves have nothing to do in a Heroes game to Necros are ugly etc etc....
- factions that are too hard to play. Inferno has always been hated because you couldn't steamroll through a map and free the mines like other factions.
- factions you dislike AND that are too cheesy (Sylvan Elves, Fortress until 3.1).

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Postby Zenofex » Sep 14 2010, 9:16

Nelgirith wrote:I think there are 3 kind of factions people hate :
- factions that don't fit their likings and that can range from Dark Elves have nothing to do in a Heroes game to Necros are ugly etc etc....
- factions that are too hard to play. Inferno has always been hated because you couldn't steamroll through a map and free the mines like other factions.
- factions you dislike AND that are too cheesy (Sylvan Elves, Fortress until 3.1).

This is how it looks like in general indeed. The second point (about the relative weakness of certain factions compared to the others) is what makes someone "hate" particular factions the most, as far as I can tell. In HoMM V you have to literally babysit Inferno's army until it gets large enough (no less than a month) to be able to perform as well as Sylvan does effortlessly after just 1-2 weeks. Trying this hard not to lose some ridiculously fragile creatures is not fun and that's why the majory prefer something easier to handle. Having less problems with your own subordinates helps enjoying the game, not getting irritated by it.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 14 2010, 12:03

Zenofex wrote:Like I said, I'm really fed up with elves and orcs in games taking place in fantasy worlds. Tolkien's dead damn it, the world's mythologies are overloaded with interesting creatures and most importantly - with a little imagination, you can create whatever race you want.


Which will just be a different looking take on tree hugging pansies, or proud warrior guys, or whatever... it's not the presence of a race called elves, or orcs that's the problem, is the lack of variety... that and calling putting shady elves in Dungeon a new faction.
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Postby Zenofex » Sep 14 2010, 14:16

ThunderTitan wrote:it's not the presence of a race called elves, or orcs that's the problem, is the lack of variety... that and calling putting shady elves in Dungeon a new faction.

Granted, but by "new race" I do mean "new", not some renamed replica of a well-known and overexploited one. You can't really create something completely original, but you can make it original enough to be interesting. Ashan however is too shallow a base for good experimentation, you are simply unable to stretch your imagination when the framework is that narrow. That's why I can't expect conceptually well-made factions, but I do hope for at least some trivial ones with their own distinguishable characters - something that makes the HoMM gay-like elves notably different from the gay-like elves from other fantasy games and fantasy worlds.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Sep 14 2010, 14:39

Zenofex wrote:
Nelgirith wrote:I think there are 3 kind of factions people hate :
- factions that don't fit their likings and that can range from Dark Elves have nothing to do in a Heroes game to Necros are ugly etc etc....
- factions that are too hard to play. Inferno has always been hated because you couldn't steamroll through a map and free the mines like other factions.
- factions you dislike AND that are too cheesy (Sylvan Elves, Fortress until 3.1).

This is how it looks like in general indeed. The second point (about the relative weakness of certain factions compared to the others) is what makes someone "hate" particular factions the most, as far as I can tell. In HoMM V you have to literally babysit Inferno's army until it gets large enough (no less than a month) to be able to perform as well as Sylvan does effortlessly after just 1-2 weeks. Trying this hard not to lose some ridiculously fragile creatures is not fun and that's why the majory prefer something easier to handle. Having less problems with your own subordinates helps enjoying the game, not getting irritated by it.


I'm sorry but I have never had any serious problem with the Inferno faction in Heroes V.

What is this majority of which you speak. I have no wish to have the game taken over by the demands of incompetents who can't even figure out how to effectively play half of the towns in the game.

We've lost the Inferno faction once (Heroes IV) and I don't want to see it lost again.
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Postby Zenofex » Sep 14 2010, 15:30

I know how to play with Inferno, thank you. In HoMM III and V. And with Infernopolis in HoMM IV, but who doesn't. The fact that I can manage the whole lot if I put enough supervising efforts does not make it quite fun to play with most of the time. I hate constantly playing a goose mother.
You are free to show me the Inferno-loving majority, if you disagree with me.

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Postby ecsunotos » Sep 14 2010, 16:28

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:I have no wish to have the game taken over by the demands of incompetents who can't even figure out how to effectively play half of the towns in the game.


Aaaahh... this is interesting. Looks like our friend has already have strategies to play whole factions in HoMM V correctly ( or at least more than half of the towns :D ). This is quiet important since ability to play each faction effectively will take influence to "decission" whether we like or dislike it.

You should share the general strategy how to play each faction effectively than, brother B-)

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Postby Secret_Holder » Sep 14 2010, 18:59

Probably Inferno, because it's placement in HoMMV is a bit of a continuity error, as these of course are Kreegans, and therfore the people of Ashan should have been given a warning by the Ancients, as Colony did.

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Postby Tress » Sep 14 2010, 19:20

Probably Inferno, because it's placement in HoMMV is a bit of a continuity error, as these of course are Kreegans, and therfore the people of Ashan should have been given a warning by the Ancients, as Colony did.


Well Homm5 use whole different concept for demons independent of Kreegan/ancient storyline. They are demons in more classical sense of term.Can argue on benefits of such change but fact is that they dropped sci fi part at least for now.

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Postby Secret_Holder » Sep 14 2010, 19:32

Yes of course, the new devils aren't Kreegans, But canonically they should be.

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Postby Elvin » Sep 14 2010, 19:35

With a broken continuity that's hard to argue.
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Postby Secret_Holder » Sep 14 2010, 20:29

Yes, one could say that, with the new whacky continuity that Ubi have created.

But then a serious question appears. What is official MM canon. NWC's storylien og Ubi's storyline? Of course I would say NWC's, but I would like Ubi to answer that question someday.

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Postby Tress » Sep 14 2010, 20:36

But then a serious question appears. What is official MM canon. NWC's storylien og Ubi's storyline? Of course I would say NWC's, but I would like Ubi to answer that question someday.


Well they are pretty much separate so doesn't really matter. If you play ubi games you ignore nwc continuity and vice verse. Canon would only matter if ubi continuity would interfere with NWC set universe, like for example if story would directly refer to previous parts and would change already established things.

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Postby ecsunotos » Sep 14 2010, 21:09

Just like the developer, NWC, their story line also follow them to the grave yard. They are history.
The most "reasonable" story line to be followed right now is Ubi's. Just no way they will get back to the old one.
Just hope that they can do the best based on that story line. Better than last serie, HoMM V.

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Postby Nelgirith » Sep 14 2010, 22:19

Secret_Holder wrote:Yes, one could say that, with the new whacky continuity that Ubi have created.

Well, there is NO whacky continuity because Ubi clearly stated that there is NO continuity at all ! From H5, it's a brand new universe with absolutely zero connection to previous HoMM games, be it Enroth, Erathia or Axeoth.

As for the MM, Ubisoft has yet to announce if they plan to ever continue it, but I seriously doubt it. With "Might and Magic" becoming an "umbrella"-brand as Erwan Le Breton said, there would be more chances to see Ubi creating their own RPG rather than going the MM 10 way, but I'm not sure they give the M&M license enough credit for that.

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Postby Corlagon » Sep 14 2010, 23:20

Anything I say is pure conjecture, but I don't believe Ubi made a new continuity to prove a point or whatever - more like they simply couldn't recruit anybody for their team with a decent understanding of the 20-year MM lore at short notice, and ultimately said "screw it, let's conceive a new backstory and stall for time". This resulted in H5's Ashan: a diluted, uber-generic fantasy world with no identity.
Now they do have someone, so let's see if this setting has evolved for the better with (hopefully) more of the classic MM spirit.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 15 2010, 7:35

They didn't really need to understand it, did they, all they had to do is play some H4 and continue that...

The new setting and the name change pretty much says they're just using the M&M name as a marketing thing to keep old players while making games that would appeal to new players too. We're the safety net...
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Postby Corlagon » Sep 15 2010, 13:58

ThunderTitan wrote:They didn't really need to understand it, did they, all they had to do is play some H4 and continue that...


Not really as easy as you suggest, because there's a lot of fine details throughout the series which they might've butchered with contradictions and errors if they only paid attention to and built on H4's storyline, hypothetically leading to at least as many complaints as the "reboot" generated.

For instance, in the original continuity, it would be infeasible to create a long-winded new backstory for the Inferno faction or include them in prequels, since Escaton would've blown the planet up due to the Kreegan presence. And you couldn't go off and create lore explaining the origin and history of the Elves or Humans, because it's already established that they were sent to Enroth on "(space)ships of light". But you don't learn any of that just by playing H4. et cetera.

Ubi seem interested in jumping between time periods rather than conveying a continuous story arc. I guess they could've very easily done that with H5 either way - set it in Axeoth's far future - but then there would've been absolutely no justification for including dragon gods or Fabrice's Dark Elves. :P

Despite what I used to wish, I think that - provided H6 has a good storyline - the worst thing they could do at this point is deliberately choose to ignore all aspects of, and sever all ties to, the original continuity. They have a strong opportunity to reconcile the "universes" and shouldn't waste it.


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