What's The Worst Faction ?

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Lord_Haart
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Postby Lord_Haart » Aug 26 2010, 8:15

I wouldn't mind having a Wizard town that combines Dungeon and Academy, but only if the remaining two races are Rampart (yes, Rampart, not Sylan) and Stronghold (H3 Stronghold, not H5 Fortress).

I really don't care for inferno (devils and angels are cliche beyond belief), nor do I like the dwarven factions more than the classics. I do love Academy and Dungeon, but to me they've always been the opposite faces of the same coin, and there would be some parity in having them be together.

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Kilop
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Postby Kilop » Aug 26 2010, 8:36

devils and angels are cliche beyond belief


lmao : cause dragons / grumpy dwarfs / gay elves / wiard in robes / and all the other mythological creatures of heroes are something of a rare thing ?

cademy and Dungeon, but to me they've always been the opposite faces of the same coin


What about haven and inferno then ?
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Meandor
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Postby Meandor » Aug 26 2010, 8:41

Somehow I feel there is unnaturally large amount of pathological hatred against HOMM 5 on thees boards. Ofc it isnt greatest game, but if that thing they call Homm 4 is allowed to carry name of homm then homm 5 can do it without questions.


Funny!

Race unifiation - Imo that gives race more consequent outlook. For example dwarves amongst elves -that automatically puts them
amongst minor races. Any lore that would be based on dwarfs is therefore is killed. I never can imagine rampart as dwarf town.


Yeah but what? How dwarfes were a minor race? Just because they don`t have tier 1 dwarf unit with axe, tier 2 unit dwarf with hammer and so on makes them a minor race? Besides elves had archers and pegasus riders(those were elves right?), thats 2, so that makes them a major race?

Dungeon - making them warhammer withc elf style was too cheese move but the way they made dungeon in homm 3 it was too similar to fortress imo - lots of tamed creatures.


With Dungeon being old town i`d think this would make Fortress look like Dungeon ;|


What matters is concept and flavor of the town. There is no formula.
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Nelgirith
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Postby Nelgirith » Aug 26 2010, 9:21

Elvin wrote:Fortress strong from the start? Since when..?

"From the start" as in from the release of the game. :) I didn't mean in early games. Most people didn't like Fortress because with the amount of hitpoints of their army, it felt like cheating compared to other races. It was quite poorly implemented in the game

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Postby Tress » Aug 26 2010, 9:36

Yeah but what? How dwarfes were a minor race? Just because they don`t have tier 1 dwarf unit with axe, tier 2 unit dwarf with hammer and so on makes them a minor race? Besides elves had archers and pegasus riders(those were elves right?), thats 2, so that makes them a major race?


Heroes, that what. I know there is dwarven heroes as well, but race is generlay represented as elves. For example if you check any campaign, then its always elven represented faction that leads elves. You could even forget about dwarven presence, specially considering that their unit is rather unpopular due to speed, and even more compared to archer. Even more if you check mm7 then dwarves seem even more alien to rampart castle.
With Dungeon being old town.


Will have to go with hero again - warlock(shame they gave asylum sorcerer as default caster for some perverted reason, warlock being as advanced class). Black dragon aint bad sign too. From fortress perspective we got only hydra.

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Elvin
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Postby Elvin » Aug 26 2010, 9:40

@Nelgirith
Oh certainly. Worse yet they tried to balance them with extravagant resource costs.
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Pitsu
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Postby Pitsu » Aug 26 2010, 10:45

Kilop wrote:
devils and angels are cliche beyond belief


lmao : cause dragons / grumpy dwarfs / gay elves / wiard in robes / and all the other mythological creatures of heroes are something of a rare thing ?


Which are mythological, which religious? I personally would prefer demon over devil, because the name has more loose connections with god and religion.
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Postby Soronarr » Aug 26 2010, 13:29

What does it matter? Mythology, religion and culture are all connected. Half of todays "mytohlogy" is religion of old.

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Kilop
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Postby Kilop » Aug 26 2010, 14:11

plus, following that logic, by what could we replace angels ? Greater spirits ? Demons = Devils, as long as angels are in the game ...
I support(ed?) Nival... flame on !!!

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Pitsu
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Postby Pitsu » Aug 26 2010, 14:50

I am very happy with the (original) Kings Bounty and Homm 1-2 which have demons as one of the most wicked creatures but no angels or devils.
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Postby jeff4815 » Aug 27 2010, 2:08

alma wrote:
I didn't like the dark elf concept, it killed the diversity of the town. Warlocks and the old Dungeon>>>>dark elves.

HoMM1: centaur, gargoyle, griffin, minotaur, hydra, dragon, yumm!
HoMM2: centaur, gargoyle, griffin, minotaur, hydra, dragon, yumm!
HoMM3: throglodyte, harpy, beholder, medusa, minotaur, manticore, dragon, yumm!
HoMM4: bandit, orc, medusa, minotaur, efreet, nightmare, dragon, hydra, yumm!

And then suddenly HoMM 5:
dark elf unit #1, dark elf unit #2, minotaur, dark elf unit #3, hydra, dark elf unit #5, dragon???

It absolutely killed the diversity of that town. I hope that if we get a warlock/dungeon again it'll be filled again with creatures from tales and fantasies and it'll be very diverse like it was in HoMM 1-4.


I agree here. I don't really care for an all dwarf town either.
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ecsunotos
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Postby ecsunotos » Aug 27 2010, 3:49

I think we're getting to something. Based on fan's opinions they dislike faction which has :

- type of troops tend to be homogenous / lack of diversity, ( but Knight / Haven ??? ;| )
- unbalance in stats / strength / abilities of troops compared to others factions
- boring town scenery : Fortress, Inferno, Dungeon ( ??? )

Any comments or additions ?

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Elvin
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Postby Elvin » Aug 27 2010, 6:16

Annoying micromanagement/creeping. Don't think you've nailed down the real reasons for the dislike.
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Meandor
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Postby Meandor » Aug 27 2010, 6:28

- type of troops tend to be homogenous / lack of diversity, ( but Knight / Haven ??? dontknow )


For me it`s ok to have humans but when everyone is same, well too much is too much.
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Tress
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Postby Tress » Aug 27 2010, 7:40

Well it's impossible to talk about worst faction based on poll since if we base our opinion on that poll then :
A) poll is about favorite faction, and bottom faction of such poll is not same as what would be top on worst faction poll. It might as well be same faction. It is more of popularity contest. For example if all just forget about dwarf town then it wont be on top of neither tops.
B) Sample of ~100 ppl is unacceptable for any more or less believable statistic.

But even if so and we check on that poll. For some odd reason by default homogeneous factions of undead and haven are on top.
Personally i believe that such homogenization is good. It gives better narrative about faction, and you dont have to guess for what odd reason such dump of units are together. If we check on rival series - disciples2 . Faction homogenization is even stronger and while game was technically inferior to homm it got it's praise thanks to it's feel and I cant imagine somone bash mountain clans because they are dwarves only and someone haven't thrown couple elves in tow.

As for dungeon, I wouldnt have anything against that faction as dark elves if they would have designed more or less original concept of them, not just ripped WH. Good thing they have queen rather than maimed king.

As for what makes faction popular/unpopular. I think from game play perspective, popular faction must have ability to play quickly. Thats why in homm3 stronghold is more popular than fortress. Because people prefer offense to defense. Inferno for example for each fight requires to manage extra set of units to avoid casualties, why necromancer can even afford loses due to eternal servitude and constant influx of units.

As for dislike of dwarves. I think reason is not as much their units as their racial. Its human greed that cant alow you to press runic button since it will consume resource that may be useful tomorrow, while raising necromancy is simple and just provides with free units. And it instantly forbids you from using auto combat.

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Soronarr
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Postby Soronarr » Aug 27 2010, 8:23

ecsunotos wrote:I think we're getting to something. Based on fan's opinions they dislike faction which has :

- type of troops tend to be homogenous / lack of diversity, ( but Knight / Haven ??? ;| )
- unbalance in stats / strength / abilities of troops compared to others factions
- boring town scenery : Fortress, Inferno, Dungeon ( ??? )

Any comments or additions ?


I happened to like HOMM2 castle the most, and it had nothing BUT humans.

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ecsunotos
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Postby ecsunotos » Aug 27 2010, 8:52

@ Trees > Yup, the game play is very important aspect. And IMHO, it has been related to point about balance of stats / strength / abilities of army troops of the faction. Thx for the Idea of including the game play.

@ Soronarr > Yup, that point above means that fans dislike homogenous except for Haven / Knight, due to the fact that many fans like this faction.

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Postby konfeta » Aug 27 2010, 10:07

Heh, about Dungeon diversity issue, I've actually read what one of the Heroes 5 developers said about the Dungeon situation. The HoMM 5 team felt that dungeon design was problematic because they believed it didn't really have a theme. Previous Dungeon incarnations, to them, were "a collection of different creatures, that for different reasons lived underground."

Their making the theme was "dark elves, intrigue, elite troops, strike magic."


So basing on the range of responses to homogeneous factions, there needs to be a balance between having a definitive theme and variety within that theme.

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Meandor
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Postby Meandor » Aug 27 2010, 10:50

Maybe it`s just me but for me Dungeon/Warlock/Chaos was always about evil wizards gathering/enslaving dark forces around them, hence such evil creatures as Minotaurs, Medusas, Manticores and so on. Same but opposite for Sorceress town in HoMM 1 and 2.
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Tress
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Postby Tress » Aug 27 2010, 11:55

Maybe it`s just me but for me Dungeon/Warlock/Chaos was always about evil wizards gathering/enslaving dark forces around them, hence such evil creatures as Minotaurs, Medusas, Manticores and so on

For homm1 and 2 they were shadowy counterparts of sorceress. Even to a point one was exclusively female, while warlock were male. Think in Sephinroth's (homm3) bio there is even reference to that but it really lose its meaning, the further the game goes. Sorcerers were omitted completely(only gem left in sod as refference)
But generaly must agree that prior to homm5, dungeon/warlock faction was dump of units. In homm4 it is literally meant as such, place where all sort of social garbage gathers. Choice to make it dark elf faction is pretty good in my eyes, apart from realization. If you make DE, make them original without ripping of drow or WH elves. For example blizzard in warcraft managed to create quite original concept of elves(night/blood/highborn/sindorei), of course they draw lots of inspiration from various sources(warhammer/ dnd/ lotr) but it dont seem as blatantly ripped as Homm 5 witch elves.


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