Your likes/dislikes in Heroes6 game design

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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MistWeaver
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Your likes/dislikes in Heroes6 game design

Postby MistWeaver » Aug 18 2010, 12:47

I figured we would be better with one topic for all the love&hate posts we are going to have on BH design decisions .

So let me start.

Likes:
* Pre-H5 battle rounds
* Pre-H5 hero types separation (Might vs Magic)
* Non-H5 engine (thank God)

Dislikes:
* only 4 resorces. But I could live with that
* No town screens. (wtf?) Now, thats a bad one. Town screens are probably the only thing that Nival did on A+. Town screen always was the place where you could go and relax a bit, watch the beautiful view, listen to the music. It added more depth to the game world. Unlike everything else it was't a schematic representation, it was like an actual picture of your city.

Removing those disappoints me A LOT.

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Postby Mirez » Aug 18 2010, 14:11

what makes you think there will be now town screens?

I liked the initiative system introduced in heroes 5, would be a shame if they would remove it.
A separation in might and magic is a good thing, nival really screwed up there.
However no special buildings in your town is stupid as well. Where the hell is your hero gunna learn spells?
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby Qurqirish Dragon » Aug 18 2010, 14:26

Add to pros:

Ability to convert towns to your faction.
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Postby MistWeaver » Aug 18 2010, 14:32

Mirez wrote:what makes you think there will be now town screens?


From preview:
Zweite große Neuerung: Spezifische Stadtbildschirme gibt es nicht mehr, stattdessen verändern sich die deutlich vergrößerten Metropolen direkt auf der Karte.

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/might-mag ... 016,2.html

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Postby 7h30n » Aug 18 2010, 15:11

Pros
- New HoMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D
- love the design of units
- good ol' Might & Magic seperation

Cons
- less resources

So far I don't have much to nit-pick because I'm stoked for new HoMM :-D

I hope they do it right with the game and my town - Inferno (though I liked Dungeon very much in HoMM V)

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Postby Mirez » Aug 18 2010, 17:54

well that would suck
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby OliverFA » Aug 18 2010, 22:09

Qurqirish Dragon wrote:Add to pros:

Ability to convert towns to your faction.


That's certainly a pro.

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Postby TheUndeadKing » Aug 18 2010, 23:46

OliverFA wrote:
Qurqirish Dragon wrote:Add to pros:

Ability to convert towns to your faction.


That's certainly a pro.

I wouldn't be so sure. On one hand, it would definitely increase scripting possibilities thus make way for some interesting custom maps. But on the other hand, it would probably ruin gameplay (especially on regular maps) in the long run. I could certainly live without such a feature, but if it's going to be in the game, it should definitely be an option at best, not a feature that can't be turned off later.
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Postby LongDarkBlues » Aug 19 2010, 1:05

TheUndeadKing wrote:...it would probably ruin gameplay (especially on regular maps) in the long run.

How?

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Postby Magelord » Aug 19 2010, 1:41

Cons:

- No Dungeon Faction? EPIC Fail!!! Where are the Black Dragons?

- No specialty bldgs?

- No Town Screens.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pros:

- I like converting towns to your faction it's an idea that has been a long time coming.

- Might Heroes and Magic Heroes like the old days is a plus.

- Town screens evolving on the map is cool but keep town screens!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Possible Pro:

- Perhaps in the course of the campaign they will unlock? the Dungeon Faction since as of Homm5 the Dungeon race of Elves may descend during the time period of Homm 6.

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Postby LongDarkBlues » Aug 19 2010, 1:55

Magelord wrote:- No specialty bldgs?

I'm really hoping that those end up as neutral buildings on the map, like the Cover of Darkness in H3. It'd be a shame to lose all that , certainly.

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Postby innokenti » Aug 19 2010, 9:19

Well, some of the features so far feel like unwelcome simplifications/retrogrades:

*Pre H5 turn sequences - probably the single greatest innovation in H5 and a very welcome addition to the series. Added an extra dimension to the battles which genuinely made the more fun and varied and meant that units could be more varied than before. Getting rid of it is probably the biggest con here.

*Factions - only five and fairly dull homogenised ones. HoMM1 could get away with it, but by HoMM2 they'd already innovated away from the simplicity, 3 gave us the wonderful Swamp faction, 4 kept many of the quirks, but 5 was a little bit of a step back (though the addition of the Orc and Dwarf towns at least increased the number of factions). This is even further back. (Interestingly enough, by Clash of Heroes on the DS, Dungeon had already been dropped it seems. Someone at Ubi doesn't like Dungeon anymore? They're the ones that made them under-dressed Drow)

*Resources - see the other thread. Fair enough, but possibly unnecessary unless it genuinely brings new depth to the game.

*Design/Art - looks the same as H5 but with with more detail and slightly prettier. Doesn't seem to have as much stylisation though (even though I wasn't the biggest fan of H5's art style, it was a style and it gave the game a distinct look).

*They made Mark of Chaos - something that cannot be forgiven.


On the other hand, there's the Might and Magic hero division, convertible towns. And they're still making a Heroes game. So not all bad.

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Postby OliverFA » Aug 19 2010, 10:22

TheUndeadKing wrote:
OliverFA wrote:
Qurqirish Dragon wrote:Add to pros:

Ability to convert towns to your faction.


That's certainly a pro.

I wouldn't be so sure. On one hand, it would definitely increase scripting possibilities thus make way for some interesting custom maps. But on the other hand, it would probably ruin gameplay (especially on regular maps) in the long run. I could certainly live without such a feature, but if it's going to be in the game, it should definitely be an option at best, not a feature that can't be turned off later.


Let me elaborate it a bit more. I think it is a pro because it is a feature that has been requested for many of the fans since long long ago. Probably since HOMM1.

In my opinion that's how Ubi should be evolving the game, by applying wishes that have been in the community for long long time.

Also, this feature would make the game a bit more strategic. This is good. I know that HOMM is not a hardcore strategy franchise, and I won't demand hardcore strategic features from it. But anything that makes it a bit more strategic would be a plus. It wouldn't hurt to bring some basic strategic concepts, like more faction differentiation, upkeep, fog of war, and some others.

In fact that was one of the things HOMM5 did well. Players could not change cities, but factions were quite differentiated through the racial skills. For an inferno player it made a lot more sense to use inferno troops or otherwise they were not able to use gating. The next logical step would be to be able to recruit inferno troops in any of your castles.

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Postby Tress » Aug 19 2010, 11:28

I think they are stepping away too far from heroes core idea. Changes to mining seems bit drastic.
No town screens really pisses me off. Yes game engines nowdays can generate nice picture on world map but thats still not it. Converting towns imo is move in wrong direction too

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Postby Pol » Aug 19 2010, 13:30

innokenti wrote:*They made Mark of Chaos - something that cannot be forgiven.

Hey, hey, hey! Stop here! I enjoyed that game. It was having that right Warhammer spirit. * It's descendant from Dark Omen and Shadow of the Hornet Rat, which were better in theirs times. However this one was also solid and dusted off my sweet memories.

On the other hand, let just not confuse that these (Mark of Chaos + Battle March) are from other world, totally different universe. So, it's not exactly related.

Anyway, I see that one like a huge plus! Although it was not success from the point of sales, I, as a gamer, appreciated it greatly.
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Postby innokenti » Aug 19 2010, 14:08

Pol wrote:
innokenti wrote:*They made Mark of Chaos - something that cannot be forgiven.

Hey, hey, hey! Stop here! I enjoyed that game. It was having that right Warhammer spirit. * It's descendant from Dark Omen and Shadow of the Hornet Rat, which were better in theirs times. However this one was also solid and dusted off my sweet memories.

That's not very fair to Dark Omen and Horned Rat! Mark of Chaos bears very little relation to the absolute masterpiece of Dark Omen - it is a game that remains mechanically brilliant, and captures the spirit of Warhammer battles beautifully, even doing it real-time. All it needed was shinier graphics and a more modern interface. Mark of Chaos this not was.

After playing Mark of Chaos I had to wipe the slate clean by forcing Dark Omen to play through a vast array of trickery. It cleansed the palate beautifully.

You are right that it may be in no way indicative of what Black Hole will do with HoMMVI.

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Postby Pol » Aug 19 2010, 19:02

innokenti wrote:That's not very fair to Dark Omen and Horned Rat! Mark of Chaos bears very little relation to the absolute masterpiece of Dark Omen - it is a game that remains mechanically brilliant, and captures the spirit of Warhammer battles beautifully, even doing it real-time. All it needed was shinier graphics and a more modern interface. Mark of Chaos this not was.

Although I enjoyed it, I'm not saying that you have not a certain point here. :D
Now let see what they will bring us for HoMM VI. feast!

(PS The above mentioned trickery does featured only sw renderer or you was able to reactivate some true hw engine? I remember that I wasn't. Originally played this game on Ati Rage pro card and was spoiled by its graphic quality. SW renderer is nothing compared to this.)
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Postby TheUndeadKing » Aug 19 2010, 21:58

OliverFA wrote:Let me elaborate it a bit more. I think it is a pro because it is a feature that has been requested for many of the fans since long long ago. Probably since HOMM1.

In my opinion that's how Ubi should be evolving the game, by applying wishes that have been in the community for long long time.

Also, this feature would make the game a bit more strategic. This is good. I know that HOMM is not a hardcore strategy franchise, and I won't demand hardcore strategic features from it. But anything that makes it a bit more strategic would be a plus. It wouldn't hurt to bring some basic strategic concepts, like more faction differentiation, upkeep, fog of war, and some others.

In fact that was one of the things HOMM5 did well. Players could not change cities, but factions were quite differentiated through the racial skills. For an inferno player it made a lot more sense to use inferno troops or otherwise they were not able to use gating. The next logical step would be to be able to recruit inferno troops in any of your castles.

It sounds like (and probably is) a good feature - just not for HoMM, though. I think HoMM should be more about making decisions and living with the consequences. Players should learn to adapt to different circumstances of the game and they should be able to play, control, organize, manage different factions and their respective units at the same time.

I thought the creature alternatives sucked in H5. Why? Because, you could safely pick the wrong creatures at any time in the game, but could always change them instantly to the more "suitable" ones just by visiting your castle. Yeah, sure, it makes the game more "strategic" if all you want is just to win. But from a non-strategic perspective, it's outright lame. Trappers turning instantly to Shamans just doesn't make sense. Now imagine if that happened with towns in H6 - like, Inferno instantly changing to Haven in the blink of an eye. If you really want to make this work, you ought to put a "demolish castle" option there first. Either that, or put special non-faction neutral towns on the adventure map that will let you build the dwellings of your choice.

Besides, (even though I dislike it) I'm not completely against the idea itself - I just said that it should be an option (before starting a game).
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Postby Qurqirish Dragon » Aug 19 2010, 22:50

TheUndeadKing wrote:
OliverFA wrote:Let me elaborate it a bit more. I think it is a pro because it is a feature that has been requested for many of the fans since long long ago. Probably since HOMM1.

In my opinion that's how Ubi should be evolving the game, by applying wishes that have been in the community for long long time.

Also, this feature would make the game a bit more strategic. This is good. I know that HOMM is not a hardcore strategy franchise, and I won't demand hardcore strategic features from it. But anything that makes it a bit more strategic would be a plus. It wouldn't hurt to bring some basic strategic concepts, like more faction differentiation, upkeep, fog of war, and some others.

In fact that was one of the things HOMM5 did well. Players could not change cities, but factions were quite differentiated through the racial skills. For an inferno player it made a lot more sense to use inferno troops or otherwise they were not able to use gating. The next logical step would be to be able to recruit inferno troops in any of your castles.

It sounds like (and probably is) a good feature - just not for HoMM, though. I think HoMM should be more about making decisions and living with the consequences. Players should learn to adapt to different circumstances of the game and they should be able to play, control, organize, manage different factions and their respective units at the same time.

I thought the creature alternatives sucked in H5. Why? Because, you could safely pick the wrong creatures at any time in the game, but could always change them instantly to the more "suitable" ones just by visiting your castle. Yeah, sure, it makes the game more "strategic" if all you want is just to win. But from a non-strategic perspective, it's outright lame. Trappers turning instantly to Shamans just doesn't make sense. Now imagine if that happened with towns in H6 - like, Inferno instantly changing to Haven in the blink of an eye. If you really want to make this work, you ought to put a "demolish castle" option there first. Either that, or put special non-faction neutral towns on the adventure map that will let you build the dwellings of your choice.

Besides, (even though I dislike it) I'm not completely against the idea itself - I just said that it should be an option (before starting a game).


Well, it remains to be seen how they implement it. If they did it like WoG, then I don't think you'd complain.

For those who don't know how WoG does down changing:
You need to demolish all the town buildings first- and each one done in a single day gets progressively more expensive. You also need to have a sufficiently strong force to do this (as the town residents don't want the town destroyed!). Once you destroy the village hall, then the town becomes a deserted town- you lose ownership, and nobody can enter for a week. After that time, you can recapture the razed town and build a new village hall of your hero's type, or the original type (one WoG hero specialty is to rebuild any town type)

For any reasonably built town, this takes around 3 weeks game time. Even if you have the large resources needed to demolish everything in one day (or the town is low level), it still takes a week- and then you have an empty town to build from scratch.
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Postby TheUndeadKing » Aug 20 2010, 0:11

Agreed. Something similar to the WoG system would make sense, I suppose.
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