Heroes VI pictures

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 14 2010, 21:02

Zenofex wrote:This explanation might be used for a realm where the people are working to feed their souls and feel the joy of labour, but not where they actually (more or less) get paid for what they do. Or otherwise said, in a world without economy you can have as many plate mails as you want. But that's not really what we are arguing about, see. For more information, check random economical treatise.


Actually no. In real-life feudal economies people often tended to do work AS payment, or rather as akin to taxes or rent. To consider what that means, the peasants typically worked on their lords as payment for holding lands/for legal protection, they did not get paid for what they did.

Now consider that in a society where the military requires an immense amount of plate-mail, because that is how an army is expected to be armed.

The difficulty of explaining the problem of an entirely plate-mail equipped army dissolves when you consider that the Egyptians managed to build the pyramids on more or less the same basis as I've mentioned above, by unpaid (except in food and drink) labor service to the government.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 14 2010, 21:25

Your example is completely wrong, are you sure that you understand the concept of "payment" at all? Payment doesn't necessarily mean money in narrow sense. When people perform some task, they incorporate their labour into now-created value of the product, which then can be traded against another portion of labour incorporated into value. Money just make this easier. It's perfectly possible to have an economy without any money or with only partial use of money (you gave an example about the feudal economy yourself), it will just not function (at least not exactly) as the nowadays system. If nobody gets paid for his/her labour - as I mentioned, not necessarily with hard currency - there will be no society as there will be no exchange.
I think we are really pushing the moderators with this prolonged semi-off-topic though...
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 14 2010, 21:52

Zenofex wrote:Your example is completely wrong, are you sure that you understand the concept of "payment" at all? Payment doesn't necessarily mean money in general sense. When people perform some task, they incorporate their labour into value, which then can be traded against another portion of labour incorporated into value. Money just make this easier. It's perfectly possible to have an economy without any money or with only partial use of money (you gave an example about the feudal economy yourself), it will just not function (at least not exactly) as the nowadays system. If nobody gets paid for his/her labour - as I mentioned, not necessarily with hard currency - there will be no society as there will be no exchange.
I think we are really pushing the moderators with this prolonged semi-off-topic though...


You have misunderstood what I am saying to a very great extent. I am not suggesting that the system works on the basis of social coercion (sense of duty) combined with legal coercion (prison, execution, flogging), not because the people get paid to do said work.

Essentially instead of paying taxes to the government/rent to your landlord, you have to do work to support them rather than or in addition to paying money you have earned. That no direct exchange of anything is made, this is one key difference between the Capitalist society and the Feudal society.

Historically in real-life medieval feudal economies, the wealth produced by the peasants and extracted by said lords through the process of feudal duties was then traded to armor-makers, the production of armor took place as part of the capitalist element of the society, that element based upon exchange. Thus the "cost" of the armor was a very serious impediment, thus restricting it's use.

This situation suited the lords well because it meant they controlled a monopoly of effective force in the local area due to the cost of armor and the armorers as well as it guaranteed great profits for them. This situation is how it evidently is in Heroes V.

But in the few cases rather than extracting for the sake of exchange to pay for things, the feudal lords have utilized the labor for the sake of public works, the results have been that staggeringly labour-intensive projects become possible, for instance the Egyptian Pyramids. They are affordable because they cost *nothing* but the food and drink required to sustain the laboring army, which the state has collected in rents.

If you extract your taxes and rents in labor rather than money, you can invert the relationship, so instead of the question is no longer can *you* afford it, but can *they* afford it.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 14 2010, 22:13

They are affordable because they cost *nothing* but the food and drink required to sustain the laboring army, which the state has collected in rents

This sentence negates everything before and after it (some of which is nearly ridiculous, but this is neither the topic, nor even the forum to discuss is). The "labour army" has to be sustained, i.e. it is getting paid for what it does, otherwise it will die and there will be nobody to finish the grand projects. Whether the payment is "fair" is a whole different matter. Even a slave is getting an existence-minimum payment. Furthermore, to amass and maintain a labour force capable of building without the usage of modern technology something with the size of a medium-to-large Egyptian pyramid is extremely difficult and expensive - you have to sustain not only the common workers in the quarries, lumberjack camps, constructions site, etc., but also transport ship crew members, supervisors, engineers, etc. The construction of the pyramid of Khufu is supposed to had taken 20 to 30 years (maybe even more) and cost the country both great amount of money and overstrain of the population. I have no idea why do you think that this means that the whole project costs "nothing".
Among other things, there is no way to make something which requires qualified, skilled and relatively scant labour (experienced blacksmiths) and is produced slowly like the plate armors - because you can't just hammer the pile of metal until it becomes a gothic plate - much cheaper than what it currently costs without greatly lowering the quality, no matter how many people you engage. This is not an industrual mass-production.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 16 2010, 18:33

Zenofex wrote:This sentence negates everything before and after it (some of which is nearly ridiculous, but this is neither the topic, nor even the forum to discuss is). The "labour army" has to be sustained, i.e. it is getting paid for what it does, otherwise it will die and there will be nobody to finish the grand projects. Whether the payment is "fair" is a whole different matter. Even a slave is getting an existence-minimum payment. Furthermore, to amass and maintain a labour force capable of building without the usage of modern technology something with the size of a medium-to-large Egyptian pyramid is extremely difficult and expensive - you have to sustain not only the common workers in the quarries, lumberjack camps, constructions site, etc., but also transport ship crew members, supervisors, engineers, etc. The construction of the pyramid of Khufu is supposed to had taken 20 to 30 years (maybe even more) and cost the country both great amount of money and overstrain of the population. I have no idea why do you think that this means that the whole project costs "nothing".
Among other things, there is no way to make something which requires qualified, skilled and relatively scant labour (experienced blacksmiths) and is produced slowly like the plate armors - because you can't just hammer the pile of metal until it becomes a gothic plate - much cheaper than what it currently costs without greatly lowering the quality, no matter how many people you engage. This is not an industrual mass-production.


And where does the cost of hammering out a few thousand plate-mail compare to the costs of creating the pyramid of Khufu?

If you can mobilize the entire labor resources to an end, you can also mobilize some of those resources to *pay* for the cost of mobilizing them.

If you raised about half of your surplus labour hours to produce armor plates (and the assosiated mining and transport) and the other half to raise additional food and supplies which are required for the latter it's still feasible.

It doesn't cost you (the government) anything, because you are mobilizing extra resources in order to produce armor plates en-masse. The cost is instead borne by the country and it's people who have to bear the burden of all that extra unpaid work to support the military machine.

Even the skilled labour requirement can be wavered by having skilled supervisors (who are paid) to oversee the laboring masses. And long as you have people at hand who can make sure the people are banging the metal plates properly, it doesn't actually matter whether the people actually know how to make an entire suit of armor.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 16 2010, 19:48

Forget it, you win. I am out of ideas how to convince you that you are talking nonsense.
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Postby Kalah » Oct 16 2010, 21:34

Is this discussion relevant to the topic ...?
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Postby parcaleste » Oct 17 2010, 21:39

Is any discussion in this forum relevant to the topic? :|


Whatever... :D

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Postby Metathron » Oct 18 2010, 9:43

What - phpBB still doesn't have the simple Split Thread option? 8|
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Postby ambok » Oct 26 2010, 5:17

it won't specified for sure. .

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 26 2010, 10:07

Zenofex wrote:So we are now arguing about what we are arguing about. Hm... No matter.


We are because you seem rather obsessed with H5, when my original idea was that the existence of magic would have serious social and economic effects on any world... which is too often ignored in order to have the middle ages (with losts of classical age stuff too) with magic on top.

These artifacts are rare. We can safely assume that most of them are not being produced when the HoMM V events take place, but in the far past. The Artifact Merchants sell them for a not-so-small fortune each. The "minor" artifacts produced by the Wizards are expensive too. Even if the normal plate armor is cheaper compared to them (and it probably is), this does not prove that is cheap in general sense (like the last model of Mercedes is cheaper than a fully equipted Rolls Royce, but that doesn't mean that more than a minor part of the population can afford it).


Dude, if the Rolls Royce wasn't around the price of a Mercedes would be different... because it's value is partly determined by perception... as it is for all goods and services.


Zenofex wrote:But I'm not even arguing about this in the first place, but about that using the magic as an explanation for some dull things in the game is bad on too many levels - economy, military, crafts, etc. Maximized beyond common sense, this approach can make the world as interesting as gazing at a crag - it just stands there in all its rockness, doing absolutely nothing.


Once again, i wasn't using it to justify the obviously slapped together world of Ashan.

I was simply pointing out that in a world where magic is common place it should have some of the same effects as technology (unless you slap some arbitrary limits that are about the same as "a wizard did it" when it comes to explaining something). When it doesn't it's always a case of Reed Richards is Useless, coming up with some reason for it or not.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 28 2010, 13:02

Well, enough is enough. If you want, we can continue on PMs or start a new topic, but the current one's spammed enough already.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 29 2010, 5:59

Spoil sport... PM's are lame.
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Postby Thelonious » Nov 4 2010, 22:47

ThunderTitan wrote:Actually according to the good people at HC both chicks are necros, as the last one isn't a sibling, but some sort of plot relevant Necromancer.

On that pic, I suppose the ghost is Duke Pavel's ghost (the father), then there's Anton, Kiril and Anastasia and finally to the extreme right is Sveltana.


I know I'm going back a whole lot of posts but I just figured that this would be the most logical explanation because all caracters mentioned are revealed... to bad they didn't show the last two siblings...

Which makes me wonder: on the facebook UbiHole states that Anastasia might or might not have killed Slava (the father (the fathers father is Pavel)). So probably (because it's cheesy and thus likely true) Sveltana killed Slava and blamed Anastasia who then gets executed and turned into a nerco just like auntie Sveltana...

Then Anton is conflicted for killing his sister and Kiril is just plain screwed for being half a demon somehow (probably screwed by Sveltana aswell :P she'll probably work with the 'fallen' arch angel in a quest for world domination).

That just leaves the wizards to be screwed just out of revenge of necro's being screwed by wizards for being into death and the likes and a 'new' faction where the necro's should have some grudge against.

This in depth story will end in all factions (plus any introduced in the expansion(s)) uniting to stop the demons and save Ashan for some 400 years. Oh yeah, and there is probably something with the heart of the griffin (that thing was made during this ecilps right?) so Anton will sacrifice himself to create this uber artifact.

Did I forget anything?
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Postby Elvin » Nov 4 2010, 23:08

The heart of the griffin was created from Nikolai's father's soul some 20 years before H5 so that's probably out. The Sveltana conjecture could very well hold true though I do not remember her actually hating her brother or something. From the little things they mentioned about her anyway.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Nov 4 2010, 23:13

she's a necro, she doesn't need to hate him, she could just not care and the killing is simply part of some plan...

And it does look like there will be a sword that seems to be an expy for the HotG... or at least has the same soul-jar type origin...
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Postby Elvin » Nov 4 2010, 23:37

Still Pavel was not killed by necro forces, it looks like Sveltana got there afterwards.
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Postby parcaleste » Nov 5 2010, 6:39

Off topic again, eh? :P

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Postby Elvin » Nov 5 2010, 6:43

I'd be more surprised if we were ontopic really.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Nov 5 2010, 7:13

Elvin wrote:Still Pavel was not killed by necro forces, it looks like Sveltana got there afterwards.


Remember King Griphonheart?!
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