Heroes VI pictures

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 27 2010, 13:55

And the story of how the devs got to make the game is mind blowing.
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Postby Nelgirith » Sep 27 2010, 14:16

ThunderTitan wrote:And the story of how the devs got to make the game is mind blowing.


You mean about how hellish it is to work for Games Workshop ? :devil:

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 27 2010, 16:49

Actually about how GW sued them over their game using some logos from them while being a blood bowl clone and after they hired them to make an actual Blood Bowl game...
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Postby Rion » Sep 27 2010, 17:31

ThunderTitan wrote:Now see, these are proppa vampires: http://www.bloodbowl-game.com/img/media ... ary_04.jpg They're so cool they even have shades.

If we bring in the Warhammer universe, then I would prefer vampires based on Blood Dragons, rather than the other bloodlines. But I also prefer medieval and renaissance noblemen to those of the Victorian era.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 27 2010, 19:13

We already brought in WH with H5 (especially with the DE's).

And that Blood Dragon dude is way too Coppola's Dracula armour for my tastes... way too much red.


But the idea was that the one in the picture i posted from BB has a certain whimsy about it... something Heroes could benefit from getting back.
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Postby Rion » Sep 28 2010, 6:41

ThunderTitan wrote:We already brought in WH with H5 (especially with the DE's).

Good god, don't remind me. I hate the Dark Elves.

And that Blood Dragon dude is way too Coppola's Dracula armour for my tastes... way too much red.

I didn't mean that specific armour (though agree that it's too red), but more that what kind of Vampire it is.

But the idea was that the one in the picture i posted from BB has a certain whimsy about it... something Heroes could benefit from getting back.

You mean like the tuxedo wearing Vampires of H4? Because I weren't weren't too happy with that.

I can't really say I either remember or miss anything whimsy about Heroes. While I've played H2 at a friend's place a long time ago, my own first Heroes game was H3.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 28 2010, 7:02

Rion wrote:I didn't mean that specific armour (though agree that it's too red), but more that what kind of Vampire it is.


And what does that have to do with what he's wearing?!

Rion wrote:You mean like the tuxedo wearing Vampires of H4? Because I weren't weren't too happy with that.


The tuxedo was too obvious... even the H2 vampire had a somewhat modified one. The idea was for his clothes to have elements that evoke that type of thing, not to wear a modern suit.


Rion wrote:I can't really say I either remember or miss anything whimsy about Heroes. While I've played H2 at a friend's place a long time ago, my own first Heroes game was H3.


Don't worry, i'm sure one day you'll improve your tastes.

And H3 had the vampire from Nosferatu...
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Postby Rion » Sep 28 2010, 8:12

ThunderTitan wrote:
Rion wrote:I didn't mean that specific armour (though agree that it's too red), but more that what kind of Vampire it is.


And what does that have to do with what he's wearing?!

The fact that he wears armour and uses a sword?

Rion wrote:You mean like the tuxedo wearing Vampires of H4? Because I weren't weren't too happy with that.


The tuxedo was too obvious... even the H2 vampire had a somewhat modified one. The idea was for his clothes to have elements that evoke that type of thing, not to wear a modern suit.

Still, I don't think a tuxedolike outfit fits in a fantasy world.

Rion wrote:I can't really say I either remember or miss anything whimsy about Heroes. While I've played H2 at a friend's place a long time ago, my own first Heroes game was H3.


Don't worry, i'm sure one day you'll improve your tastes.

And H3 had the vampire from Nosferatu...[/quote]
What do you mean "improve my tastes"? I'm pretty sure opinions are subjective and that your view on Vampires isn't objectively better mine.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 28 2010, 9:38

Rion wrote:The fact that he wears armour and uses a sword?


How is that a type of vampire?! Might as well say a pikemen and a swordmen are different types of men.

I was thinking that you where talking about him being a martial like vampire, and not his equipment.

Still, I don't think a tuxedolike outfit fits in a fantasy world.


Works fine for that BB vampire (anachronistic shades notwithstanding).

Rion wrote:What do you mean "improve my tastes"? I'm pretty sure opinions are subjective and that your view on Vampires isn't objectively better mine.


Just because opinions can be subjective doesn't mean one opinion can't be objectively better then another. And an opinion can be supported with objective reasoning btw.
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Postby Darkström » Sep 28 2010, 11:25

ThunderTitan wrote: The tuxedo was too obvious... even the H2 vampire had a somewhat modified one. The idea was for his clothes to have elements that evoke that type of thing, not to wear a modern suit.


Yep, make it a 19th century style suit.

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Postby Tress » Sep 28 2010, 11:38

In homm 2 enitre necromacers faction was cartoonish non serious style(196x year horror style mumies/zombies) so serious portrayal of vampire would just ruin the mood. In homm4 hoverer Bela Lugosi style vampire really jumps out of line considering overall style of game. Must admit it is one of few models that are decently animated though.
Must admit that wow death knights/LOK/anime vampires bit too much dominate vampire style in modern games, but what you gonna do.

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Postby Rion » Sep 28 2010, 11:53

ThunderTitan wrote: How is that a type of vampire?! Might as well say a pikemen and a swordmen are different types of men.

I was thinking that you where talking about him being a martial like vampire, and not his equipment.

That is what I mean. That he is martial Vampire, who is willing or even likes to fight, rather than the more Victorian Vampire.

Works fine for that BB vampire (anachronistic shades notwithstanding).

I guess I have a different view on fantasy than you.

Just because opinions can be subjective doesn't mean one opinion can't be objectively better then another. And an opinion can be supported with objective reasoning btw.

I know that, but are you seriously saying that Vampires styled as Victorian gentlemen are objectively better Vampires styled as medieval noblemen?
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Postby Soronarr » Sep 28 2010, 12:58

ThunderTitan wrote: In a land where magic is commonplace i doubt that it would be as expensive as in RL.


Expensive things are expensive. Best protection money can buy will ALWAYS be expensive.

Unless magic does away with economy and human nature.....

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 29 2010, 8:02

Soronarr wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote: In a land where magic is commonplace i doubt that it would be as expensive as in RL.


Expensive things are expensive. Best protection money can buy will ALWAYS be expensive.

Unless magic does away with economy and human nature.....


Best protection money can buy in a magical world would not be armour...

And you don't get how economy works, necessary stuff like armour in a time when such an object is still a necessity would go down in price fast once it becomes easier to make...


Rion wrote:That is what I mean. That he is martial Vampire, who is willing or even likes to fight, rather than the more Victorian Vampire.

I know that, but are you seriously saying that Vampires styled as Victorian gentlemen are objectively better Vampires styled as medieval noblemen?


Your comparing them wrong, it's not that Victorian nobles weren't into fighting, they just didn't wear bulky armour that made them slower (for obvious reason, and actually medieval nobles didn't either unless they where on a horse, remember Richard the 3rd, "My kingdom for a horse!" and all that). And Vampires benefit from speed more then armour. Plus, the BB vamp does have armour on, a cuirass i believe.

And making light armoured vampires that evoke pop-culture in subtle ways is objectively better for entertainment then just making a knight with fangs...


I guess I have a different view on fantasy than you.


Neither Heroes nor WH was ever a "serious" fantasy setting... and while they should never become too farcical making them serious betrays their roots.

Let's keep knight with fangs where they belong.
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Postby Zenofex » Sep 29 2010, 9:38

ThunderTitan wrote:And you don't get how economy works, necessary stuff like armour in a time when such an object is still a necessity would go down in price fast once it becomes easier to make...

Actually an increased armor demand combined with low production capabilities will unavoidably mean increased prices. :) As far as we know, the humans in Ashan use the regular blacksmiths to forge armors, the blacksmiths on the other hand need iron ore (which is extracted in quite conventional way, otherwise we wouldn't have mines in the game), which on the other hand is gathered with medieval slowness. All this inevitably makes the plate mails expensive, no matter how many magicians you have around.
Also, even if the humans can cheaply train fully armored infantry en masse, they still wouldn't do it because every old-school army needs a contingent of light troops that can maneuver easily and thus provide tactical flexibility. You can't have a fighting force of 100% shock troops, it just wouldn't be effective enough.

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Postby Soronarr » Sep 29 2010, 12:09

ThunderTitan wrote:
Soronarr wrote: Best protection money can buy in a magical world would not be armour...

And you don't get how economy works, necessary stuff like armour in a time when such an object is still a necessity would go down in price fast once it becomes easier to make...


Then what would it be? Air?

You assume magic is limitless, boundless. If that were so, mages would rule over everything. There are limits - the amount of mine, spell casting time, how draining a spell is for a caster or what a spell can do for that matter.

And we're talking middle ages here. Factories and mass production didn't exist.
A single plate mail could take months to complete. And price doesn't go down when a object is highly coveted - it goes UP.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 1 2010, 12:36

Soronarr wrote: And price doesn't go down when a object is highly coveted - it goes UP.


Depends on the type of item... and that's high-school level economics.

Lowering the price of a highly coveted item means more people can afford to buy it, which means you can make more money overall from selling it instead of making more money from individual sales.

You assume magic is limitless, boundless. If that were so, mages would rule over everything. There are limits - the amount of mine, spell casting time, how draining a spell is for a caster or what a spell can do for that matter.


Neither is a production line... it simply has a big advantage over other means of production because of how it does things in a more efficient way

And Magic already has a big advantage over other ways to do stuff (otherwise it would be pointless)... way easier to wait a day or drink from a fountain to be able to replicate making fires hot enough to melt armour easy then having to gather coal, wait for the forge to heat up etc.


And we're talking middle ages here.


Actually we're not because the middle ages where a result of the fall of the Roman Empire... which lead to depopulation de-urbanization and barbarian invasions/migrations.

Most fantasy settings are more like the classical era but with middle ages fashion. And of course some cultures where not actually affected by the middle ages as it was more of a Western Europe thing.



Zenofex wrote:Actually an increased armor demand combined with low production capabilities will unavoidably mean increased prices.


That's why i said "easier to make"! Pay attention.

(which is extracted in quite conventional way, otherwise we wouldn't have mines in the game), which on the other hand is gathered with medieval slowness.


Because we don't have mines today.

And actually medieval slowness is right, because in the classical age mining was probably more efficient.

Also, even if the humans can cheaply train fully armored infantry en masse, they still wouldn't do it because every old-school army needs a contingent of light troops that can maneuver easily and thus provide tactical flexibility. You can't have a fighting force of 100% shock troops, it just wouldn't be effective enough.


Why would training more armoured troops = not being able to train any shock troops?!

Iron weapons where crappier then bronze ones (and steel came along way later then the start of the Iron Age) but as iron was more plentiful more people could be armed with them... and that's why iron replaced bronze and why all games that give you more dmg when you upgrade weapons from Bronze to Iron are wrong.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 1 2010, 13:40

ThunderTitan wrote:That's why i said "easier to make"! Pay attention.

I am paying attention, but I don't understand why do you assume that the armors will become easier to make at any point in the future. I don't have the impression that the Ashan's humans economy, technology and pretty much everything is progressing, on the contrary - they are behaving like your regular narrow-minded medieval obscurantists.

Why would training more armoured troops = not being able to train any shock troops?!

Where did I say that? Shock troop = armored troop in the medieval world.

Iron weapons where crappier then bronze ones (and steel came along way later then the start of the Iron Age) but as iron was more plentiful more people could be armed with them... and that's why iron replaced bronze and why all games that give you more dmg when you upgrade weapons from Bronze to Iron are wrong.

I can't see what the qualities of the metals have anything to do with the discussion. The weapons and armors of the human infantry/cavalry seem to be made of steel anyway (and the normal, medieval Western European plate armor that we are talking about is made of steel).

Because we don't have mines today.

We do, but we don't use magic extract resources from there. As far as we can tell, neither did the people during the Middle Ages. And for all we know - the Ashan humans too.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 2 2010, 20:40

Zenofex wrote:
I am paying attention, but I don't understand why do you assume that the armors will become easier to make at any point in the future. I don't have the impression that the Ashan's humans economy, technology and pretty much everything is progressing, on the contrary - they are behaving like your regular narrow-minded medieval obscurantists.


I wasn't, what i was saying is that the presence of magic (which is wide spread enough to be used in every battle and to make pretty light when screaming GRIFFIN ETERNAL!) should have quite an effect on how fast stuff gets done. But i guess Reed Richards is Useless will always be in effect.

Ashan won't actually do anything that makes any kind of sense for sure... it simply doesn't work that way.

Zenofex wrote:Where did I say that? Shock troop = armored troop in the medieval world.[/size]


Eh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops

Notice the part about mobility?!

But feel free to replace that with light troops if you want.


Zenofex wrote:I can't see what the qualities of the metals have anything to do with the discussion. The weapons and armors of the human infantry/cavalry seem to be made of steel anyway (and the normal, medieval Western European plate armor that we are talking about is made of steel).
[/size]



It doesn't, it was an example of how increased production would work to whoever does it advantage... and how making weapons easier happened in RL way before the middle ages too.

Zenofex wrote:We do, but we don't use magic extract resources from there. As far as we can tell, neither did the people during the Middle Ages. And for all we know - the Ashan humans too.[/size]


We use technology... because we don't have any magic.

They do, so it would be like if we still mined by hand while we had the same level of tech we do now.


Soronarr wrote:Then what would it be? Air?


One example of what the best protection would be is actually artifacts... sure, they're still armour, but not really normal armour that would presumably be what the troops are wearing, and most likely enchanted etc.
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