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The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Postby Zenofex » Oct 2 2010, 21:36

I wasn't, what i was saying is that the presence of magic (which is wide spread enough to be used in every battle and to make pretty light when screaming GRIFFIN ETERNAL!) should have quite an effect on how fast stuff gets done

You can't rely on the magic to explain everything. If it was that easy to hasten the production, there would be two possible scenarios:
- the first one is with only two professions in a magical world - a magician and a warrior (the latter is needed to protect the former, who is supposedly incompetent enough when it comes to self-defense or at least wants to sleep from time to time), and everybody else is unemployed or at least practices a profession similar to the present-time-real-world machine operators, because obviously the magic does almost everything on its own. This doesn't seem to be the case as Ashan certainly has at least farmers and blacksmiths.
- the second one is when the magic is only an auxilary "tool" and you use the magicians to speed up the gathering and processing of the goods. If we assume that the magicians participate in the economy as eaters, drinkers, hooker-clients, etc., etc., they will want a salary and this expense will be added to the product's value. If the magicians are rare, it is safe to assume that their services will be quite expensive and even if Ashan is a magical world, not every second person on the street can cast fireballs. Again we can't have cheap plate armors.

Eh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops

Notice the part about mobility?!

But feel free to replace that with light troops if you want

That's why I said *medieval*. The shock force of your regular Middle Ages army is the heavy cavalry and certain heavy infantrymen that can shake the opponent, lower his morale, disrupt his formations, etc. But the term a bit too specific, I admit. Feel free to replace it with heavy cavalry and heavy infantry, so my original sentence will be changed to "You can't have a fighting force of 100% heavy troops, it just wouldn't be effective enough".
About the magical mines and the rest - see above.
But my main point is that an army of shiny, fully armored troops look stupid if your target audience isn't 14 year olds or lower.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 2 2010, 22:47

You think a modern bulldozer is cheaper then some low class miners (which where even kids too)?!

And we can obviously have cheap plate armour in Ashan otherwise you wouldn't be able to recruit Paladins or even Crossbowmen (they have armour in h5) after a certain time because you'd be out of armours if it actually took as much effort as it used to in RL.

And magic is obviously common enough for anyone to learn it after killing some enemies...

The existence of artifacts shows that one can use magic in the creation of goods, so why not use it to help make everyday goods at a faster rate... especially when mana regenerates by itself.

and everybody else is unemployed or at least practices a profession similar to the present-time-real-world machine operators, because obviously the magic does almost everything on its own. This doesn't seem to be the case as Ashan certainly has at least farmers and blacksmiths.


I'm pretty sure we still have farmers... and they wouldn't actually need the magician to use a spell that picks their crops or anything, just one that acts like fertilizer or a water spell during the dry season...



Feel free to replace it with heavy cavalry and heavy infantry, so my original sentence will be changed to "You can't have a fighting force of 100% heavy troops, it just wouldn't be effective enough".


That's actually exactly how i took your argument... and i mentioned that there's no reason why more heavy troops would mean less light troops... feel free to tell me why you think i'm wrong.

But my main point is that an army of shiny, fully armored troops look stupid if your target audience isn't 14 year olds or lower.


Way to insult 14 year olds... i for one don't think the % is much higher for 14 year old then for other age groups... people are just into the sHINY for some reason.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 3 2010, 9:39

ThunderTitan wrote:You think a modern bulldozer is cheaper then some low class miners (which where even kids too)?!

Why would I think that?

And we can obviously have cheap plate armour in Ashan otherwise you wouldn't be able to recruit Paladins or even Crossbowmen (they have armour in h5) after a certain time because you'd be out of armours if it actually took as much effort as it used to in RL.

Well, just because they made some daft-looking units in HoMM V doesn't mean that they have to continue the bad practice in HoMM VI. Hell, even the Priests were wearing breast plates there! The Cavaliers/Paladins are heavy cavalry, so as all heavy horsemen in the medieval world their social ranking is above the peasants and the landless and can afford to buy full plate armors (which, among other things, need to be customized for their individual wearers so they can actually fight with these cans on). Certain other troops can be armored to lesser extent - some pieces or plate mail atop chain mail at most - but an entire army of fully armored soldiers is laughable. Even if the magic is so plentiful that it can make the sophisticated armors cheap, there will still be cheaper (and less protective) types which will be more attractive to the landlords who spend their wealth to assemble, train and equip the armies. The life expectancy of the regular infantryman does not compensate the cost of expensive equipment, so normally if you can have it even cheaper, you will have it even cheaper.

That's actually exactly how i took your argument... and i mentioned that there's no reason why more heavy troops would mean less light troops... feel free to tell me why you think i'm wrong.

Because you have steel-clad pikemen and crossbowmen, which are low tier infantry. If it turns that they are actually Elite, not Core troops, well... they will still look somewhat stupid with this fancy equipment, but at least not as ridiculous as if they are the casual sword-fodder that is the lowest tier of units. On the other hand it will be quite stupid to have fully armored basic troops and less armored advanced ones.

people are just into the sHINY for some reason.

Mainstream television, commercials, etc. But if you are making serious products, you have to pay attention to the serious stuff from the real life.

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Postby Roman » Oct 3 2010, 14:22

ThunderTitan wrote:You think a modern bulldozer is cheaper then some low class miners (which where even kids too)?!


That really depends. A modern bulldozer can do some types of work much cheaper than a horde of miners. If a modern buldozer can do the work of 100 man-hours per hour, than heck yes, it is cheaper to use than a bunch of miners. If bulldozers were more expensive to use in all circumstances, well, they wouldn't be used...

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 4 2010, 6:52

Roman wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:You think a modern bulldozer is cheaper then some low class miners (which where even kids too)?!


That really depends. A modern bulldozer can do some types of work much cheaper than a horde of miners. If a modern buldozer can do the work of 100 man-hours per hour, than heck yes, it is cheaper to use than a bunch of miners. If bulldozers were more expensive to use in all circumstances, well, they wouldn't be used...


Yeah, it cost more then miners but does more work faster... and that's why a wizard getting paid would just bring the price to the same point. Of course it should be pointed out that the miners you're talking about probably have a union etc...


Zenofex wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:You think a modern bulldozer is cheaper then some low class miners (which where even kids too)?!

Why would I think that?


Because that's the logical conclusion to your argument against how using magic would lower prices. See above too.

Zenofex wrote:The Cavaliers/Paladins are heavy cavalry, so as all heavy horsemen in the medieval world their social ranking is above the peasants and the landless and can afford to buy full plate armors (which, among other things, need to be customized for their individual wearers so they can actually fight with these cans on). Certain other troops can be armored to lesser extent - some pieces or plate mail atop chain mail at most - but an entire army of fully armored soldiers is laughable. Even if the magic is so plentiful that it can make the sophisticated armors cheap, there will still be cheaper (and less protective) types which will be more attractive to the landlords who spend their wealth to assemble, train and equip the armies. The life expectancy of the regular infantryman does not compensate the cost of expensive equipment, so normally if you can have it even cheaper, you will have it even cheaper.


No one was talking about the quality of the equipment, but the quantity... like the bronze vs iron example.

Well, just because they made some daft-looking units in HoMM V doesn't mean that they have to continue the bad practice in HoMM VI. Hell, even the Priests were wearing breast plates there!
...
Because you have steel-clad pikemen and crossbowmen, which are low tier infantry. If it turns that they are actually Elite, not Core troops, well... they will still look somewhat stupid with this fancy equipment, but at least not as ridiculous as if they are the casual sword-fodder that is the lowest tier of units. On the other hand it will be quite stupid to have fully armored basic troops and less armored advanced ones.


And that has to do what with whether or not magic would make manufacturing easier then it was during the Classical Age and/or Middle Ages?!
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 4 2010, 7:37

ThunderTitan wrote:Yeah, it cost more then miners but does more work faster... and that's why a wizard getting paid would just bring the price to the same point. Of course it should be pointed out that the miners you're talking about probably have a union etc...

***********

Because that's the logical conclusion to your argument against how using magic would lower prices. See above too.

That's not my conclusion, it's yours. You can't compare a bulldozer that can be mass-produced no matter the actual price with a magician who requires innate talent and training to become such - the production potential of the former is far less limited. That's first. Second - I myself am advocating that a paid magician, given that he's not just one in a huge crowd, but a rare individual, will make the price of the finished equipment pretty much the same or just marginally lower in comparison with the simple labour of the "ordinary" professions, only the end product will be finished faster. You seem to be misreading my posts.

No one was talking about the quality of the equipment, but the quantity... like the bronze vs iron example.

Actually both are being taken into account, as usual. If you can prove that a chain mail or a simple leather armor is as chep/expensive as a full plate armor though, that's another matter. I think I mentioned enough times already why you can't have an army of fully armored troops both due to economical and tactical reasons.

And that has to do what with whether or not magic would make manufacturing easier then it was during the Classical Age and/or Middle Ages?!

Are you sure that we are still talking about the same thing? That you can't put a plate armor on every soldier from your army? The last piece that you have quoted is an answer to this statement of yours - "and i mentioned that there's no reason why more heavy troops would mean less light troops." What is not clear?
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 4 2010, 7:59

Zenofex wrote:That's not my conclusion, it's yours. You can't compare a bulldozer that can be mass-produced no matter the actual price with a magician who requires innate talent and training to become such - the production potential of the former is far less limited. That's first. Second - I myself am advocating that a paid magician, given that he's not just one in a huge crowd, but a rare individual, will make the price of the finished equipment pretty much the same or just marginally lower in comparison with the simple labour of the "ordinary" professions, only the end product will be finished faster. You seem to be misreading my posts.


If we take into account the fact that every hero can learn magic and that there are like a zillion units that not only use magic but are a direct result of it it's only because you don't want to that magic isn't the same as mass produced bulldozer.

And are you actually arguing that the biggest problem would be training of the mage?! How is that different from training for a blacksmith etc... especially in Heroes where everyone has mana even if they have no magic skills whatsoever.

Zenofex wrote:Actually both are being taken into account, as usual. If you can prove that a chain mail or a simple leather armor is as chep/expensive as a full plate armor though, that's another matter. I think I mentioned enough times already why you can't have an army of fully armored troops both due to economical and tactical reasons.

Are you sure that we are still talking about the same thing? That you can't put a plate armor on every soldier from your army? The last piece that you have quoted is an answer to this statement of yours - "and i mentioned that there's no reason why more heavy troops would mean less light troops." What is not clear?


What?!

You're the one that started the whole "putting plate mail on every soldier thing"!

My first answer to that was that you don't have to put it on every soldier, we just understood the term shock troops differently.

YES, AN ARMY WOULD NOT BE COMPRISED OF ONLY ARMOURED TROOPS, NO ONE SAID THAT... H5 Haven notwithstanding.

Seriously, go back and read what was said before you jumped in, because you seemed to be confused.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 4 2010, 8:51

ThunderTitan wrote:If we take into account the fact that every hero can learn magic and that there are like a zillion units that not only use magic but are a direct result of it it's only because you don't want to that magic isn't the same as mass produced bulldozer.

And are you actually arguing that the biggest problem would be training of the mage?! How is that different from training for a blacksmith etc... especially in Heroes where everyone has mana even if they have no magic skills whatsoever.

And if we take into account that the vast majority of the these spell casters are not allied with Haven and have no reason to help them for anything but money (or are just hostile and thus willing to break, not to make), this enormous quantity of yours is greatly reduced and we have similar situation to the one with the few magicians. If you want to grow your native wizards, you will have to do with the limited amount of individuals that have talents for that. Also I can't find any reason to believe that every mana user can hasten the production of whatever at will. Seriously, how do you imagine Pit Lords casting land fertility spells or Shadow Witches exercising mining and forging spells? Or why shouldn't the anti-magic be taken into account? Just like you can have a frendly magician boosting your ore production, you can have a hostile, magically-adept spy casting anti-ore-production spells or just leaving hidden some Orb-of-Inhibition-like objects at the industrial sites. Your presumtion is oversimplified, that's why I said that magic is a poor replacement for reason.

You're the one that started the whole "putting plate mail on every soldier thing"!

My first answer to that was that you don't have to put it on every soldier, we just understood the term shock troops differently.

I don't think that I got confused, but let's call it a failure to communicate. Whose was the first fault is irrelevant to the discussion itself and it appears that after all there is some sort of agreement regarding one of the points.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 4 2010, 12:11

So i take it you admit it's all your fault.... :devil:


And really, sabotage?! that's the best counter you can come up with?! Oh noes, they can bomb us... lets do nothing then.



And Haven has spellcasters of their own... which can eve cast Haste is not anything else. Plus, if only the Wizards had magic that would make everything easier (and there's a whole nation of nothing but mages there, no rarity excuse) they would have an overwhelming economic advantage and would have the same sole super-power status the US enjoyed during the 90's...


But the discussion was more about what magic being real would imply, not what it's actually presented as doing... if magic actually existed and was as prevalent as it seems to be in Ashan during the Middle Ages the period would be very different when it comes to a lot of things, including production. The only reason it not is because Ubi (and a lot of other devs) didn't bother applying any logic to the effects of magic on a social and economic level.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 4 2010, 13:13

ThunderTitan wrote:So i take it you admit it's all your fault.... :devil:

I don't, you are pushing it.

And really, sabotage?! that's the best counter you can come up with?! Oh noes, they can bomb us... lets do nothing then

I'm not countering anything, just continuing my point and in this case, you are not even answering. Come on, you can do better than just throw weak sarcastic comments. :devil:
But just to make sure that we're still on the same frequency - with this "sabotage" I merely suggest that if you can have magic to help you, the others can have magic to negate the positives of your magic. Of course you won't stop the production because some enemy wizard has dispelled your almighty production-boosting enchantments, but how exactly will the magic make these infamous plate armors cheap and fast to produce then?

Plus, if only the Wizards had magic that would make everything easier (and there's a whole nation of nothing but mages there, no rarity excuse) they would have an overwhelming economic advantage and would have the same sole super-power status the US enjoyed during the 90's...

Or maybe this just means that you can't use magic for whatever you want because it doesn't work like that. Be frank, you are just trying to accommodate all to fit the "magic solves the absurdities" thesis of yours. The one thing that makes it impossible to prove you 100% wrong (or in your instance - to prove yourself right) is that we have no idea exactly what are the laws of magic and its usage in Ashan. This last bit unfortunately gradually makes the discussion less and less sensible.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 4 2010, 14:26

Zenofex wrote:I'm not countering anything, just continuing my point and in this case, you are not even answering. Come on, you can do better than just throw weak sarcastic comments. :devil:
But just to make sure that we're still on the same frequency - with this "sabotage" I merely suggest that if you can have magic to help you, the others can have magic to negate the positives of your magic. Of course you won't stop the production because some enemy wizard has dispelled your almighty production-boosting enchantments, but how exactly will the magic make these infamous plate armors cheap and fast to produce then?


Well if you're lying dead in a gutter who is gonna make more posts arguing against me here?!


See, you can as easily argue that if the enemy came and destroyed the mine or blacksmith etc. you would no longer be able to use it...

Same situation.

Except that if it's only an enchantment you can probably still use the equipment afterwards...


Or maybe this just means that you can't use magic for whatever you want because it doesn't work like that. Be frank, you are just trying to accommodate all to fit the "magic solves the absurdities" thesis of yours. The one thing that makes it impossible to prove you 100% wrong (or in your instance - to prove yourself right) is that we have no idea exactly what are the laws of magic and its usage in Ashan. This last bit unfortunately gradually makes the discussion less and less sensible.



You're actually the one that started to discuss this based on Ashan... i was talking about it in a general sense.

But as anyone can see from your post the only way to justify magic not having any social and economic effect is by arbitrarily limiting it from affecting work related stuff. And that is not what i was arguing about.

Otherwise even simple spells like Haste would help with production.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 4 2010, 20:02

ThunderTitan wrote:Well if you're lying dead in a gutter who is gonna make more posts arguing against me here?!


See, you can as easily argue that if the enemy came and destroyed the mine or blacksmith etc. you would no longer be able to use it...

Same situation.

Except that if it's only an enchantment you can probably still use the equipment afterwards...

Well, maybe we understand the concept of analogy differently too. If the enemy came and destroy the mine, I wouldn't be arguing that the armors will be expensive/cheap, I would be arguing that there will be no material for armors at all (provided that there is no other mine accessible to the kingdom and no one wants to trade). But there is enough material! But no magic to hasten the production? Well, here you are, you have a situation quite close to the real world medieval mining. Same applies for the blacksmiths and everything else. If "sabotage of the industrial sites" sounds too rough to you, imagine it this way - a hostile sorcerer one thousand kilometres away casts a global anti-spell that negates all the other spells currently in effect. Or just specific spells like the production increasing ones. Everyone's safe, the ore's still there, the armors are untouched, but the poor magical kingdom will have to do with standard labour if it wants the job done. Which brings us back to how expensive the plate armors really are.
You can have practically limitless such scenarios here. It could appear that actually in Ashan the raw iron ore generates some field around itself that negates certain enchantments and thus makes the casting of production-boosting spells impossible. Or that certain important mines are situated in areas of chaotic magical activity which turns the enachantments into destructive magic which could kill the miners if they rely on anything but conventional means to extract ore. And so on. All this makes exactly as much sense as assuming that the magic can be utilized pro bono no matter what.

You're actually the one that started to discuss this based on Ashan... i was talking about it in a general sense.

But as anyone can see from your post the only way to justify magic not having any social and economic effect is by arbitrarily limiting it from affecting work related stuff. And that is not what i was arguing about.

Otherwise even simple spells like Haste would help with production.

OK, maybe I miss something but how exactly can anyone talk "in general sense" about magic? This is not electricity or gravity, something which we know a lot about, but completely alien subject. Imaginary. You said that when you have magic, it's easy the expensive to become cheap and the slow - fast, not I. My point is that magic is a bad way to smuggle stupid decisions and it can only make them even more stupid when implemented. I'm not sure what's yours any more.
And for all we know, Haste only makes the enchanted creatures act faster or move further (depending on which edition of the spell we are talking about), it doesn't improve their skills. Otherwise every olympic runner would have been an excellent blacksmith.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 5 2010, 7:32

Yeah, coming up with more and more complex reasons why it wouldn't work...

And ones that would make using magic in battle be as useful as glaring at the horizon. Except that obviously you would say that the limitations would only apply to work related stuff because magic is so powerful and precise, just not powerful or precise enough to help with anything but killing.


If "sabotage of the industrial sites" sounds too rough to you, imagine it this way - a hostile sorcerer one thousand kilometres away casts a global anti-spell that negates all the other spells currently in effect. Or just specific spells like the production increasing ones. Everyone's safe, the ore's still there, the armors are untouched, but the poor magical kingdom will have to do with standard labour if it wants the job done. Which brings us back to how expensive the plate armors really are.


Then he's an idiot who wasted a lot of time, energy and mana to cast the wrong spell, when he could have simply casted an Armaggedon on your production facilities, taking them out more permanently instead of simply slowing down production. It's like using a nuke to EMP some electronics instead of using it to just blow them up... and yes, you are talking about what is basically a magical WMD...

Not to mention that until such a spell was used production would be up... a clear advantage to just doing it normally all the time.

OK, maybe I miss something but how exactly can anyone talk "in general sense" about magic? This is not electricity or gravity, something which we know a lot about, but completely alien subject. Imaginary. You said that when you have magic, it's easy the expensive to become cheap and the slow - fast, not I. My point is that magic is a bad way to smuggle stupid decisions and it can only make them even more stupid when implemented. I'm not sure what's yours any more.


Yes, as long as you assume magic doesn't have some stupidly arbitrary limitations that stop it from being used to help out at all then it would have quite an impact...

No one is arguing that if you do put some arbitrary limitation (like the ore being anti-magic, which somehow doesn't translate to something made from that ore) that makes little sense you can't make magic not helpful in whatever situation you want to, because obviously you can. You can do the same for technology (radios don't work because there's interference from cosmic rays etc.).



And for all we know, Haste only makes the enchanted creatures act faster or move further (depending on which edition of the spell we are talking about), it doesn't improve their skills. Otherwise every olympic runner would have been an excellent blacksmith.


:lolu: Yeah, it only makes them work faster, makes transporting goods go faster too. Not that the real world was ever benefited from any of that.

But i'm sure that if we had haste on olympic runners the records for speed wouldn't go up, just like when they used steroid in baseball etc. record breaking stats didn't appear from everywhere.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 5 2010, 10:45

You just don't get it, do you? As long as you use the sheepish explanation that is magic, I can use another stupid explanation to prove you that your magic explanation can easily fail. Or you are trying to argue that there is "reasonable" and "unreasonable" magic now? Damn, your arguments become more and more like those of Slayer of Cliffracers who's trying to prove that Lucifer Kreegan is very close relative to Lucifer - Satan, you just want your explanation to be correct but can't bring any serious evidences to its defense.

Then he's an idiot who wasted a lot of time, energy and mana to cast the wrong spell, when he could have simply casted an Armaggedon on your production facilities, taking them out more permanently instead of simply slowing down production.

Mass dispell costs much less efforts to cast and maintain. Or the sorcerer in question hasn't studied Armageddon for some reasons (say, different magic school). Or the affected kingdom has anti-remote-Armageddon shiled. Should I ask my little sister for something even more ridiculous but exactly as reliable as your magics?

Not to mention that until such a spell was used production would be up... a clear advantage to just doing it normally all the time.

No, no, you can't presume that you are doing it normally all the time any more than to presume that the blocking spell is active all the time. Enchantment and disenchantment negate each other, you are constantly on the starting line. Give me one serious reason why this wouldn't be possible.

Yes, as long as you assume magic doesn't have some stupidly arbitrary limitations that stop it from being used to help out at all then it would have quite an impact...

It's not working like that, as mentioned many times already. You say - "magic can do this", I say - "magic can not do it, because it's limited" or "magic is dispellable". You can't prove that I'm wrong until you give up your own method of argumentation - I'm just using its opposite side.

You can do the same for technology (radios don't work because there's interference from cosmic rays etc.).

Nonsense. You know what technology can normally do and can imagine if not all, at least most of the circumstances in which it operates. You have no idea what the magic can do and only can guess what's its effect on the surroundings. Or next you'll tell me that there's no difference between the laws of physics and the thaumaturgy?

Yeah, it only makes them work faster, makes transporting goods go faster too. Not that the real world was ever benefited from any of that.

Be specific, please. Haste makes the enchanted act and/or move faster, that's all we know about the spell. Try to perform some work that requires delicacy like forging sophisticated piece or armor 3 times faster with the same skills and you'll have metal junk instead of something protective. As for the fast transportation and so on, I think the enchant/disenchant thing has already been addressed.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 6 2010, 12:06

Yeah, they have an anti-armaggedon shield... but not a anti-dispel one...

And it costs less because it also gives less of an advantage... so it evens out.

LAST TIME:

This isn't about the actual (arbitrary) limitation that magic might have that would stop it from doing whatever you don't want it to do.

It's about how magic would affect the world if you didn't come up with specific ways for that not to work.

Like so:

You say - "magic can do this", I say - "magic can not do it, because it's limited" or "magic is dispellable".


I say "magic should be able to do this", while you come up with a situation where you can somehow counter it's ability to do that in some arbitrary fashion...

It's like i say the something heavier then air can fly while you counter that a block of iron can't because it's not aerodynamic etc.


YES, IF YOU TAILOR THE SITUATION IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT CAN'T THEN IT CAN'T... stop trying to act like I ever said that was not the case.

There's no point in arguing about that because we can just come up with new ways to counter and counter-counter every situation the other comes up with.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 6 2010, 21:20

Let's make a quick summary. We disagree on an imaginary situation. You are saying that magic can help the production, I'm saying that there is no reason to believe that this is so. There is no way either of us to completely prove his point because we are lacking information about Ashan and specifically what are the laws of magic in this world. However, you are making the following mistake:

It's about how magic would affect the world if you didn't come up with specific ways for that not to work.

... and the related text below, no need to quote everything.
Without any knowledge how it works, you can not say that it will work in any situation except those we have witnessed in the game. You know that Haste, Slow, Dispell or whatever other spell is castable on military units, during battle, but there is no way for you to know that it can be used on the civil population. I won't start inventing reasons again, even though I can, the point is that this information is not present and because we are not talking about a phenomenon that can be observed in the real world, you have no more right to presume that something will happen than I have to presume that it will not happen. If you can find an in-game source that says "magic works in a fashion similar to an industrial complex for mass production", I'll just say that the lore-writer lacks the imagination to come up with something interesting instead of this idiotic disguise of creative impotence and... I'll agree with your explanation that magic solves the absurdities on the instant. It doesn't matter that it replaces the absurdity with triviality, it will be at least as good as a scientific explanation, because in this case what the Ashan world creator says is the word of God Almighty.
And if the above is not clear, read it this way - you can not assume that the magic can be applied to a real world situation and alter it in a specific way without knowledge about the magic itself. The most you can assume is that when you apply it, something may or may not happen. Obviously this has nothing to do with a real world example of a random physical phenomenon - say if you touch with a conductor some source of electricity, the latter will start flowing through the former.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 8 2010, 20:42

Zenofex wrote:You just don't get it, do you? As long as you use the sheepish explanation that is magic, I can use another stupid explanation to prove you that your magic explanation can easily fail. Or you are trying to argue that there is "reasonable" and "unreasonable" magic now? Damn, your arguments become more and more like those of Slayer of Cliffracers who's trying to prove that Lucifer Kreegan is very close relative to Lucifer - Satan, you just want your explanation to be correct but can't bring any serious evidences to its defense.


Given I'm already being insulted, I might as well get involved.

The problem with Thunder Foots argument is simply that there are other better explanations than magic for why plate mail would be cheap and plentiful enough for everyone to have it.

Consider that the ease of producing something is not fixed in stone. There is no requirement that the ability to produce plate mail be limited to that of the medieval period.

It's about social priorities isn't it? If an entire society finds plate mail so important it will contribute far more resources to the job of armour production and not only that will probably develop infrastructure for effectively mass-producing plate-mail.

As the availability of plate mail goes up, it is no longer effective to wield forces without it, which means the total number of soldiers is reduced to the availability of plate-mail.

Instead of being sent off to fight, those same people who would be sent to fight in Heroes V are used up instead banging together plate mail all day, so that a smaller number of high-quality soldiers can be produced.

As the availability of plate-mail is higher, so it becomes more and more viable to field an army with no non-armored troops in it. To conscript people to make armor is preferable to conscripting them to fight.
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 8 2010, 21:26

This explanation might be used for a realm where the people are working to feed their souls and feel the joy of labour, but not where they actually (more or less) get paid for what they do. Or otherwise said, in a world without economy you can have as many plate mails as you want. But that's not really what we are arguing about, see. For more information, check random economical treatise.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 9 2010, 23:24

Zenofex wrote: You know that Haste, Slow, Dispell or whatever other spell is castable on military units, during battle, but there is no way for you to know that it can be used on the civil population.


Because there's such a fundamental difference between the same person while he's in military attire vs when he's in civilian clothes?!


Yes, i totally agree that as magic is imaginary one can come up with all sorts of scenarios about it, each as valid as the other, but that doesn't mean one can't apply basic logic and Occam's Razor on what we've seen to extrapolate some reasonable effects magic should have, barring some factors we can't know about... and thus can ignore when coming up with a hypothesis.

You arguing that other factors might be in play (and that Occam's Razor is not the same as proof) is a whole different thing, which has little to do with the original discussion anyway.

Lets look back at what started this:

Soronarr wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote:
Soronarr wrote:<<No, it doesn't make sense for them to have ALL of their units shiny and well equipped. Do you have any idea how expensive plate mail is?>>


In a land where magic is commonplace i doubt that it would be as expensive as in RL.



Expensive things are expensive. Best protection money can buy will ALWAYS be expensive.

Unless magic does away with economy and human nature.....
.



Heck, his argument i wrong because of the simple existence of artifacts, which are better protection that normal armour... and those are the products of magic...

...

If we're actually talking about the fact that it's imaginary then i too can argue that we have no way of knowing what plate mail would cost in Ashan because it's an imaginary situation in the first place... and that gets us nowhere.

Slayer wrote:
The problem with Thunder Foots argument is simply that there are other better explanations than magic for why plate mail would be cheap and plentiful enough for everyone to have it.


Which has nothing to do with this discussion in the first place...
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 14 2010, 20:10

So we are now arguing about what we are arguing about. Hm... No matter.

Heck, his argument i wrong because of the simple existence of artifacts, which are better protection that normal armour... and those are the products of magic...

These artifacts are rare. We can safely assume that most of them are not being produced when the HoMM V events take place, but in the far past. The Artifact Merchants sell them for a not-so-small fortune each. The "minor" artifacts produced by the Wizards are expensive too. Even if the normal plate armor is cheaper compared to them (and it probably is), this does not prove that is cheap in general sense (like the last model of Mercedes is cheaper than a fully equipted Rolls Royce, but that doesn't mean that more than a minor part of the population can afford it).
But I'm not even arguing about this in the first place, but about that using the magic as an explanation for some dull things in the game is bad on too many levels - economy, military, crafts, etc. Maximized beyond common sense, this approach can make the world as interesting as gazing at a crag - it just stands there in all its rockness, doing absolutely nothing.

and that gets us nowhere.

I think we are already there...
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