Discussion of Racial Skills - ideas for improving in Heroes6

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cjlee
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Discussion of Racial Skills - ideas for improving in Heroes6

Postby cjlee » Oct 2 2009, 16:59

Hello everyone!

I'm starting this thread to discuss racial skills. Maybe we can come up with good suggestions on how to improve them for Heroes VI?

Our discussion should involve themes like: ease of use, overpowering/ underpowering, cost, balance at different stages in the game, difficulty of maintaining balance in different scenarios, etc.

Here are some of my views on Ease of Use and Balance

Ease of use:
I find Sylvan's Avenger-Favored Enemy the hardest to use. Unless you are playing a map where the enemy is known (e.g. quest to kill a certain type of animal, much like Draco's quest to slay dragons in Heroes III), most of the time Favored Enemy is useless. Not to mention you have slay the creature first and then go home to reset your favored enemy.

Academy's Artificer is also very hard to use as it requires piles of resources. I find Artificer useless on most small or medium maps because there aren't enough mines.

Dwarves' Runes require resources too, which severely impedes their usage in resource-tight maps or in early game when you are desperately saving resources to build your castle. I find Rune of Charge easiest to use because of their resource requirement 1 wood.

Haven's Training is very hard to use in early game. Training is way too costly most of the time and usually forces your best hero to go back and train in base. I find the Heroes V campaigns very misleading as to the actual practicality of using Training.

Inferno's Gating, Necropolis' Necromancy and Dungeon's Elemental Chains are all easy to use. These work all the time, right from the first day, everywhere, even if you have lost your race's castle.

The easiest to use must be Stronghold's Blood Rage. It works automatically all the time without any effort on your hero's part.

Balance:

I would say that Sylvan's Avenger is extremely unbalanced. It makes Sylvan way too powerful if facing a known set of enemies, especially when playing an RPG map with a Quest involved. It is also very dangerous in a 1v1 map when you know your friend's race. But Avenger is useless more than 90% of the time since the probability that you can choose the right enemies is low.

Academy's Artificer can also be severely distorting. If you have a single hero with good knowledge boosting items, he can create powerful artifacts and equip creatures and pass them to another hero. This makes some battles much harder than they would be otherwise.

I find Training unbalanced also. On smaller maps, the 20 unit limit is a killer because 5 extra paladins (from peasants) is very lethal. On bigger maps or in late game, the 20 unit limit is useless. Other Racial Skills have no limit as to the number of units.

Necromancy is also unbalanced because of the Dark Energy limits. But at least these limits increase when you get more and more powerful necs. Furthermore, you can keep on campaigning and raising dead without having to go back to base.

Runes are essentially a way to cast spells without using your hero's turn. All spells are useful and about as balanced as normal spells. However, ultimate Runelore is particularly useless. You might as well sell the Pendant of Mastery for money. What's a few wood and ore in late game?

Gating would be pretty balanced if not for Banish, which is too powerful against Gating and useless in most other battles. (Area of effect spells will dispel phantom image without need to sacrifice one skill slot for Banish)

Elemental Chains is very useful for both hero and units without overpowering or underpowering.

Warcries seem pretty balanced.

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Re: Discussion of Racial Skills - ideas for improving in Her

Postby Elvin » Oct 3 2009, 2:15

I don't know what maps you play but statistically you should get at least 2 units from the enemy. Never had a problem with avenger but dislike having to run back to town.

Artificer early is not needed, academy is a rushing faction. If it could also use artificer earlygame it would be silly.. But I do dislike the micromanagement and returning to town. It is what allows academy to remain good in lategame so it just shifts the power accordingly to match that of other factions.

Runes are cool. They are not meant to be spammed around expect in the final battle, besides there is fine rune to save resources. Balanced as normal spells? :D Good one.

Haven has trouble early if rushed, perhaps training could have been more accessible to train more archers... Can be insanely powerful from week 5 onward, paladin hoarding is scary. Have no idea whatsoever what makes you think that 20 paladins per week are useless, even in epic maps this is overpowered.

Necromancy is amongst the most balanced racials actually. If you play your cards right you'll have enough undead without breaking the balance. But you still have an incentive to rush and make the best use of the extra army. Medium speed and initiative will put you in disadvantage by lategame.

Gating is fine, banish sucks. Badly. Inferno isn't all charge, it will often have to outlast an opponent and gating is the way. Assuming it can afford the time to do so, defense is pretty abysmal and time is of the essence. If the opponent can reach you and fast you cannot use it effectively. Main issue for me is the annoying micromanagement in every damn battle, can make earlygame a pain.

Rage I like but it's not as balanced. Plus a lot depends on atb, if you catch a unit with its rage down it will fall like a fly. And that can happen on the very first round. On the other hand if you do attack first and/or cast a warcry first it automatically becomes a tank. But my main issue is that in lategame that pretty much makes destructive weak. And it's pretty biased, can fare well with every type of magic except dark.


Anyway I wouldn't want to see the same all over again. I hope they'll be more creative next time around.
I, for one, am dying to find out what colour they paint Michael's toenails.
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astronomeric210
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Postby astronomeric210 » Oct 3 2009, 15:27

I find the sylvan and academy traits really difficult to use...

Any tips?

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Postby Elias_Maluco » Oct 5 2009, 15:48

I think warcries would be balanced if we had at least one dispel-like warcry.

Everyone has magics to undo mean tricks like puppet, is very unfair to be the single one race that can only hope it fails.

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Re: Discussion of Racial Skills - ideas for improving in Her

Postby cjlee » Oct 6 2009, 0:51

On Avenger:
If you don't know who the bosses or your enemies are, how do you set the right units to avenge? But once you know, you get too powerful relative to that enemy. That's the problem with Balance.

On Academy:
In H5 How do you rush with Academy? This isn't like H3 when you can hire tons of heroes and accumulate Master Gremlins to steamroll on week 1. I find H5 Academy units too weak for rush and the hero sucks for fighting with units. I've always played Wizards n Academy capitalizing on Wizards' vast knowledge i.e. spell versatility which takes time to build up. With my playstyle, there's no way to charge the enemy in early game because I need enough magic skills and resources to attain enough spells.
Would appreciate some tips on Academy rushing since you seem to have experience on that style of play.

Agree with you that artificer should be for enhancing Wizard's forces in late game against enemies who will have higher atk and def stats. What I've never been able to do is rush with Wiz.

On Runes:
I guess I didn't explain my thoughts well. I said they were as balanced as normal spells meaning that their cost limits their availability enough to prevent Rune spamming.
But if you have a lot of resources e.g. late game, Rune spamming becomes a huge problem. Essentially every unit can cast spells every turn without using up any ATB (or even getting increase morale from casting spells).
From my limited experience, when fighting Against an enemy dwarf, you must rush him. Dwarves are extremely dangerous in late game because of: 1) high defense esp formations 2) tough castles with hundreds of free short guards 3) that damned mark of fire and fire spells multiplying damage like crazy 4) most crucially, in a final battle your enemy will have all runes and is guaranteed to spend all his resources.

I once fought an enemy dwarf who had a vastly inferior army. He spammed Rune on every move, and won. Turns out he even used marketplace to maximize his resources, rather than spend money on hiring, so that I would be tricked into attacking his seemingly smaller army.

Training:
I've never fought a human opponent training like mad in late game. Never given anyone the chance to accumulate pallies! The most was I think a 2-4 pally difference.
Actually, I thought Haven is a great faction for all purposes - defense, attack, siege, defending in a siege, etc. In the first month, Lay Hands is damn good at keeping everyone alive in a siege while your attacker fumes helplessly.
Is there a limit to the number of times you can lay hands?

I'm puzzled about the infamous Pally accumulation stunt in H5. Seriously, how do you get enough money to accumulate paladins? Even training a few will swallow your week's income. Even with Suzerain Isabel in H5 campaigns, I couldn't afford to train many.

Necromancers:
I agree that necs have weak troops and need to accumulate undead. But isn't Dark Magic intended to help overcome their weaknesses? Ever since H2 I've played undead by 1) accumulating mass skeletons 2) using enemy troops against each other with puppet master (hypnotize in h2), frenzy (beserk in h2) or similar spells.
I think undead is not intended to fight 1 on 1 in late game. Undead is intended to stay 'alive' while your hero manipulates the enemy to fight themselves. That's the whole purpose of Mark of the Necromancer - keep generating mana for necromancer to do his work.

Barbarians:
Agree 100% with you! When I play barbarian, I don't care a damn about getting shatter summoning/destructive/light. But I often get Shatter Dark.
I don't know what maps you play but statistically you should get at least 2 units from the enemy. Never had a problem with avenger but dislike having to run back to town.

Artificer early is not needed, academy is a rushing faction. If it could also use artificer earlygame it would be silly.. But I do dislike the micromanagement and returning to town. It is what allows academy to remain good in lategame so it just shifts the power accordingly to match that of other factions.

Runes are cool. They are not meant to be spammed around expect in the final battle, besides there is fine rune to save resources. Balanced as normal spells? :D Good one.

Haven has trouble early if rushed, perhaps training could have been more accessible to train more archers... Can be insanely powerful from week 5 onward, paladin hoarding is scary. Have no idea whatsoever what makes you think that 20 paladins per week are useless, even in epic maps this is overpowered.

Necromancy is amongst the most balanced racials actually. If you play your cards right you'll have enough undead without breaking the balance. But you still have an incentive to rush and make the best use of the extra army. Medium speed and initiative will put you in disadvantage by lategame.

Gating is fine, banish sucks. Badly. Inferno isn't all charge, it will often have to outlast an opponent and gating is the way. Assuming it can afford the time to do so, defense is pretty abysmal and time is of the essence. If the opponent can reach you and fast you cannot use it effectively. Main issue for me is the annoying micromanagement in every damn battle, can make earlygame a pain.

Rage I like but it's not as balanced. Plus a lot depends on atb, if you catch a unit with its rage down it will fall like a fly. And that can happen on the very first round. On the other hand if you do attack first and/or cast a warcry first it automatically becomes a tank. But my main issue is that in lategame that pretty much makes destructive weak. And it's pretty biased, can fare well with every type of magic except dark.


Anyway I wouldn't want to see the same all over again. I hope they'll be more creative next time around.
:)


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